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1000 mile a day can be done.

1000 mile a day can be done.

This thread is for those who insist on driving long distances and think unless you can do it in an EV you won't buy one.

Assume 60 - 70 miles an hour average speed. So Approx 2.5 to 3 hours driving between stops till the battery is flat.

Note: Even if you think you drive at 70-80 average speed you’ll find that due to traffic, over a day you’ll be doing closer to 60-70. If you find a stretch of road where you can do 1,000 miles without getting stuck behind other vehicles, having to stop for tolls, slow down for intersections, or has no construction, or rush hour traffic somewhere along the route... let me know. I'll come for a holiday. ;-)

Here's your itinerary:

6:00am Leave and drive 200 miles. 3.5 hours as you caught rush hour in as you leave the city.
9:30am Stop for battery swap and coffee to go. $30 battery swap service fee (assume it wont be free)
9:40am Get going and Drive 200 miles.
12:00pm Stop for free supercharge and $5 burger. Ran the battery quicker as no traffic.
12:30pm get going again Drive 200 miles.
3:00pm Stop for $30 battery swap and coffee to go.
3:05pm Get going again Drive 200 miles.
6:00pm Stop for Free supercharge and $10 ribs. Try and avoid rush hour whilst eating.
6:45pm Get going again. Drive 200 miles
10:00pm Stop for battery swap.
1:00 am. Stop at hotel with >=22kW public charger. Plug in, check in and go to bed shattered from driving 1000 miles in 1 day.

Day 2. Get up at 5am still tired from the day before:
Repeat. 2 supercharges. 2 x battery swaps. 1 overnight charge.

Day 3. Repeat.

Congratulations you just crossed from LA to Boston in 3 days for $180 on battery swaps and free supercharges , $45 on burgers and ribs, $30 on coffee, $200 for hotels. Total cost $445. Each way. Still it was cheaper than unleaded.

Still think you’d have been better of flying though and renting a gas car for a couple of days. Personally my vacation time is worth more than the rental cost + fuel. You are really in danger of a lawsuit if you have an accident as you driving stops will leave a trail of evidence that you are doing excessive driving. (Gas or EV).

The key point is a gas car can't do 1000 miles and has to stop at least 3 times. You can save 1.5 hours each day, but not stopping to eat and taking another battery swap.

The battery swap whilst mildly inconvenient will take less than 5 minutes from leaving the freeway to getting back on. No need to exit the car, unless you want to stop for coffee too. 5 battery swaps will be quicker than 3 liquid fill ups. The system will automatically bill your Tesla account by talking to the vehicle. I personally think they'll nail this to sub 30 seconds once they go into production. The robots in the public demo were slow.

In future - I think you’ll need to pre-book battery swaps so they can guarantee you a full one when you get there. They'll need something akin to a car stacking system like they have in Japanese cities, with a warehouse behind. Electric supply will need to be big, but nothing more than a commercial factory uses. IF cost benefits stack up, they'll leave charging depleted units till overnight... unless they solar powered energy shipped over the grid ;-)

I can see “air traffic control” on superchargers too. Stick in your route, and the central control will work out who will be arriving and when… can advise you to stop early to avoid queuing later.

I'd expect most people to go for a battery swap rather than a supercharge as it's quicker. Also means they can be kept in stock and charged more slowly to full charge.

Some key things to be resolved on swapping are not tech related - but consumer pricing...

Still think they are nervous about this after what happened to better place and trying to package it right is difficult. All the cost fall on Telsa unless they can sell you a primary battery first, and you are guaranteed to always get a fresh one from a swap station. The older <95% charge batteries can be recycled as energy buffers for the superchargers. Or reconditioned into lower capacity packs. Maybe they can even have different price levels on swap packs. Each "fill up" costs say $30 for a full 85kWh. But if you can get by with an 80kWh that's degraded a little - you only pay $25. And a 70kWh is $20.

Say you own an 60kWh car - but you want to borrow an 85kWh for long journey. You pay $50 - as your base pack will go on the shelf.

Gas cars don't store their whole energy for a trip up front and I think the battery swap model works best.

This sounds futuristic - but is easily doable right now. Someone just has to sign the check... Mr Musk.

I think they are waiting to see how people get on with supercharging before committing to battery swap. Might not be needed. Cuts the cost by loads if they don't have to have a swap warehouse station with say 1,000+ spare batteries inside.

Anemometer | 12 august 2014

Er, that's 1,200 miles a day. Missed that last 200 before the hotel between 10pm and 1am. So now you can do Seattle to Miami instead. ;-)

vgarbutt | 12 august 2014

Or, if an aluminum air , 1000 mile, drop in the frunk, battery could be rented, you could go 1200 miles without charging. And if the AL 'battery' (range extender), can be swapped out, you could drive straight there without stopping and pee in a bottle!

I know, battery swap tech is available now, with no real compelling business model yet, but available NOW.

But the AL battery is already in a car in an early prototype and waiting for a business case too.

vgarbutt | 12 august 2014

So if I could,

The 1200 mile trip could go like this.

8:am , get up and pack

10:am drive to the battery rental depot and have a 1100 mile aluminum air range extending power unit installed.

10:30 hit the road and stop at the first highway resaurant with a supercharger, eat and charge.

11: 30 hit th road again and stop when you need to use the bathroom, get hungry, or want to watch the cows.

Arrive at your destination and swap out the AL battery for a fresh one.

Do your stuff and head back.

Stop if you want, and drop off the range extender when you get back.

I have no idea how much time gets saved over an ICE.

Red Sage ca us | 12 august 2014

The most capable vehicle I ever owned could go about 530 miles on a full tank of fuel, when traveling with the cruise control pegged at 85 MPH.

Even for a trip of 1000 miles, I would probably still stop for fuel at least twice, because I wouldn't want to arrive at my destination either empty, or close to empty.

Leaving with a full tank at 4:00 am, I would drive four hours at around 65 MPH to start, covering 260 miles, in order to escape the Greater Los Angeles Area without disturbing the officers of the goshdarned law or running into traffic.

I'd fill up again and hit the road, after having breakfast. ~30 minutes.

I'd drive another six hours or so at mostly 75 MPH, and I would start looking for a gas station, having crossed another 450 miles, but probably stop at 500.

Stop, fill up, grab some lunch. ~1 hour.

I could then cover the rest of the stretch to my destination, kicking up the speed to around 80 MPH I'd get there in three hours. Though I would top off anyway when I got there. Total elapsed time would be roughly 15 hours.

I have actually made trips of this sort in as little as 13 hours. I expect a similar trip with a Tesla Model S would require four stops instead of three, and take around 16-18 hours at most. Once a battery capacity of 135 kWh or more was available, yielding a 400+ mile range on the Model S, a road trip like this would be almost indistinguishable from one with an ICE. At 170 kWh and more than 500 mile range, it would be the same or better.

Brian H | 12 august 2014

1,200 miles a day would maybe be possible for an autonomous car. For human driving, a rare one-off stunt.

Red Sage ca us | 12 august 2014

Well, the 'stunt' becomes more rare as I get older...

Mike83 | 12 august 2014

It is not healthy to sit so long. In fact every 2 or 3 hours a 20 minute workout to keep those arteries from clogging might save in doctors and prescription bills.
I find the SuperChargers are perfect for this and no gas costs.
Its the journey not the destination.

Rocky_H | 12 august 2014

I was skimming this, but as soon as I got to "battery swap", I had to stop. There are no battery swap stations and probably never will be. When I still see people use battery swap to address people's actual concerns about range and recharge times, it makes me roll my eyes a bit, because you can't use a possible thing that may exist at some unknown point in the future as if it's an actual solution to an actual thing now.

centralvalley | 12 august 2014

In June I returned home to Fresno from Moab. I left Moab at 7:00 AM MDT and made it 991 miles later at 3:00 AM PDT. I only used Superchargers the whole way, max charging at Blanding and Kingman. Because of the lengthy distances from Blanding to Flagstaff and again Kingman to Barstow, I drove much slower than the speed limits for about 2/3 of the distance until I felt comfortable with my remaining range.

I estimate that this decreased speed added about two hours to my driving, and waiting for both max charges to creep the final few miles added another 90 minutes.

So, I think it is doable on a more relaxed Supercharger route where charging will take 30-40 minutes per stop instead of over an hour, and where we can drive at or reasonably above the posted speed limits.

And, I agree 100% with Mike83, these stops every couple of hours to walk, eat, and just enjoy made the journey safe and pleasant. I arrived home with no fatigue or drowsiness.

Rocky_H | 12 august 2014

I've done two of the marathon trips of 1,000+ miles almost non-stop, and they were terrible, and not too bad, respectively. One was when my wife and I were moving across the country in a U-Haul. We decided (stupidly) to just take turns driving and sleeping to get it over with. It was 1,900 miles and took over 30 hours. And in the cab of a U-Haul, you can't do anything with the seat to get a comfortable sleeping position. Not pleasant, but when you're in your early 20's you frequently don't make the best decisions.

The other was about 1,200 miles and took about 17 hours, but wasn't too bad because it was in our own car, so whoever was in the passenger seat could lean it all the way back and sleep for a few hours at a time.

I wouldn't mind some 30-40 minute Supercharger stops every few hours.

Anemometer | 12 august 2014

I was skimming this, but as soon as I got to "battery swap", I had to stop. There are no battery swap stations and probably never will be. When I still see people use battery swap to address people's actual concerns about range and recharge times, it makes me roll my eyes a bit, because you can't use a possible thing that may exist at some unknown point in the future as if it's an actual solution to an actual thing now.

You have seen the Tesla demo I assume?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H5V0vL3nnHY

And the statement in March "there will be some between LA and SF in the next few months. But then we will see how they do."

Combine with 1 of theses...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8oTVndmt960

You can have a fully automated system.

Though for simplicity I'd have a chap with a manual lift truck drop them on the final car loading section, take away the depleted battery to stores and hook up the charge cables.

The only new / clever bit is the car mating system.

Anything else is fairly standard tech for distribution warehouses / production facilities. Easiest would be a one way conveyor with fresh ones coming in 1 side, and old ones coming of the other to be recharged.

Something like this....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KeR5IZRT1Q4

I find it funny how loads of blogoshpere cynics think it's so hard for a machine to find a hole in a dirty car. 20 years ago a freind of mine for his undergraduate thesis wrote a 3d image scanning piece of software to do just that. That was on an 8088 using a monochrome CCD with anolouge output as digital cameras didn't exist yet! Well it was to find a hole in a brick for a robot to pick up, but you get the idea! I don't think it will be that high tech or need that much computing power to find a bunch of holes that have been designed to cope with being dirty. Put it this way - I doubt they are using M8 allen key fixings. My desktop scanner can drop a sheet of A4 into my computer at 600x1200 dpi resoultion and OCR it all in about 4 seconds.

Anemometer | 12 august 2014

PS Rocky - I agree with your statement. I hate it when things like Fuel Cells and Carbon CCS get mentioned as if they are viable tech. You have to have seen publicy depomnstrated tech, with acceptable costs before something is really possible to come to market.

I think that's where the supercharger model doesn't stack up well. It's much more expensive proposition than having 1 battery per car. Base on previous numbers chucked around the forums - only 5% of people's journeys will be higher mileage, but with upto 30% of annual mileage. So 1.3 batteries per car - max. If you can persuade more supercharging (by making it free) you'd only battery swap if you really really are in a hurry.

The other complexity - if the model is baed on a 2 way journey and you travel a loop - what then... ?

My point stands though... it will take away the range anxiety and time constraint and potentially be faster than liquid fueling. So kinds of impotant for Telsa as a marketing weapon I think.

holidayday | 13 august 2014

It looks like the battery swap area was removed from the website some time this week. Battery swap was used by Tesla for extra green credits that California offered. When California adjusted the credits, swap became less valuable.

It may or may not happen. If it does happen it will not be soon except in factories.

Swap is a good concept, but logistics make it difficult to work. Faster charging is a better solution, since it has no moving parts and things to break.

holidayday | 13 august 2014

OF course, now that I re-check, I see battery swap back on the website. Not sure if it was my computer or Tesla updating the website when I checked it earlier this week.

Grinnin'.VA | 13 august 2014

@holidayday | AUGUST 13, 2014

"It looks like the battery swap area was removed from the website some time this week."

I just checked the web site; it's still there.

Ron :)

Rocky_H | 13 august 2014

Yes, I watched the demo, and I don't think the task is difficult. I was saying no actual stations have been built. It's expensive and compared to Supercharging, is probably a waste of money, so I think Tesla is probably not going to implement it. Well, they might build one swap station, just so they can say they did and not get a huge amount of flak for getting credits for it and never actually building it. And then, they can safely say that the usage just wasn't there to justify doing more.

Grinnin'.VA | 13 august 2014

@Rocky_H | AUGUST 13, 2014

"Yes, I watched the demo, and I don't think the task is difficult. I was saying no actual stations have been built. It's expensive and compared to Supercharging, is probably a waste of money, so I think Tesla is probably not going to implement it."

I agree that adding battery swap to a SC site would make it much more expensive. However, I'd guess that there are quite a few Tesla owners who would use such a service, even at a fairly stiff price. I think the business case might vary a lot depending on the structure of the battery swap deal offered by Tesla. For example, I think many owners would want to use battery swap to permanently upgrade their battery packs to higher capacity packs when such packs become available at substantially lower costs than the current MS85.

Ron :)

Rocky_H | 13 august 2014

@Grinnin "For example, I think many owners would want to use battery swap to permanently upgrade their battery packs to higher capacity packs when such packs become available at substantially lower costs than the current MS85."

Really? A battery swap station for a one time upgrade? That really seems like a job for a service center.

Brian H | 13 august 2014

Rocky;
Part of the "reveal" info: if an owner decides to keep the battery he rented, a fee based on the comparative capacity and condition vs. his original would be charged.

All part of the plan.

Remnant | 14 august 2014

The swapping procedure would be abbreviated if there were no liquid connection between the battery and the car. In that case, the heat transfer could be accomplished by a Peltier (thermocouple, i.e. solid) connection instead.

Naturally, a change of the nature of the battery into one less prone to runaway overheating (such as a LiPo battery or a Ryden dual carbon battery) might just do away with the need for cooling itself.

vgarbutt | 14 august 2014

Batteries without liquid cooling was tried and was found to be a really bad idea. All they need are 2 quik disconnects, not a big deal.

Remnant | 14 august 2014

@ vgarbutt (August 14, 2014)

<< Batteries without liquid cooling was tried and was found to be a really bad idea. >>

My suggestion involves two closed, LIQUID cooling systems: one inside the battery and one outside, connected by a solid heat transfer device.

Such cooling systems have been very effective in computer CPU cooling.