Competitor Lurking on the Forums?

Competitor Lurking on the Forums?

I am struck by the references to cancelling reservations because of some perceived lack of a critical feature, such as fold-able 2nd row seats, roof rack, etc., and I began to wonder, "How many Tesla competitors could there be on this Forum hoping to slow down the amazing progress Tesla has made to date?" (or is it just Vperl trying to move up in the queue?). Granted the Forum visibility can supposedly be restricted to Tesla Owners or Reservation Holders. The point is Tesla has truly shaken up the automobile world (and the petroleum industry) and dirty tricks are to be expected. Can we really expect that we are all Kool Aid drinkers at the Tesla Buffet? Stay tuned for some real info in two weeks.

oragne lovre | 15 september 2015

If you see any comments that imply prospective or current Tesla owners are Kool Aid drinkers, you can safely bet that those comments are from trolls who dislike what Tesla is doing.
To avoid these trolls, I either post questions in private setting or ignore comments that smell "trolling."

vandacca | 15 september 2015

Tesla needs Kool Aid drinkers like you @jacksiart and oragne lovre. So do I, since I own TSLA stock, and I want it to make me money.

I had a Model-S reservation for about 3 years before it was released and also got a Model-X reservation the first day I could put a deposit 3+ years ago. I had both reservations for a while until my Model-S number came up and decided to get a refund and stick with the Model-X.

And I am definitely not a troll. I do want Tesla to succeed and do really well. Therefore, I am critical of any mis-steps they may take because I want them to succeed. Furthermore, if I was shown a prototype of the Model-X with fold-able seats and a large cargo area and a 3rd row, etc. and none of those items made it to production and those items were important to me, you can imagine that I would be disappointed. Can you blame me? (hypothetically speaking).

I'm not disappointed yet, and I'm going to wait for September 29th to get all the details before making any judgements. I have that luxury because I'm a regular production reservation (#008 in Canada). There are people, however, that don't have that luxury, the early Signature holders that had to confirm their orders. They had even less options because they had to get a potentially lower range Performance model over the higher-range non-performance model.

If longer ranger was more important than acceleration to a Signature holder, they were out of luck. This doesn't seem fair to me and I can certainly empathize with them.

Anyway, I consider myself a Tesla Fan-boy, and I think of myself as someone more loyal to Tesla than a Kool Aid drinker because I can be critical of them when they make a mistake. I want them to sell a lot of vehicles and if they don't get it right, they won't do that.

rdalcanto | 15 september 2015

I've been on the forum over 2 years, and the Model X will be my 3rd Tesla. I huge part of my retirement portfolio is made up of TSLA stock. I want/need Tesla to succeed. That means the Model X has to succeed. I can't see that happening if it is the only SUV on the planet with a second row that doesn't fold to make enough room to carry a pair of skis inside. For many buyers, this will be their only vehicle, so it has to do everything all other SUVs can do. Tesla's moto is great vehicles that happen to be EVs. Lets not loose the Utility in SUV.

Roamer@AZ USA | 15 september 2015

To the OP's point. Three plus years learning about the cars on this forum and I find the trolls tend to burn out and go away. It is pretty funny when Legacy car manufacturer dealer sales reps try to make a pitch here. They tend to get eaten alive and crawl away to never return.

There are also a few experts that have commented for years without ever owning and driving the cars. You get to know who they are and discount their comments pretty quickly. I always get a little humor from people pontificating that have no clue about driving the cars everyday.

Stay around awhile and you will learn the posters who have useful information and even better will find lots of good information to ease you into pure EV driving.

My X order I placed this morning will be my fourth Tesla order. i will probably do a fifth order for another X in the next two weeks depending on Tesla order releases. We still own and drive the three S cars ordered so far.

I ordered my first Tesla with out ever seeing or driving one. Never visited a Tesla store. The first time I saw or touched one was when it unloaded in front of my house. I haven't looked back since and absolutely enjoy driving the cars. It is hard for a troll to gain any traction when the car is so much fun to own and drive.

Roamer@AZ USA | 15 september 2015

I am a little baffled by buyers that thought Signature cars would be highly configurable. I never had any question that the Signature cars would be fully loaded, limited edition cars. I was actually very pleased that I could get more than two colors on the inside and outside.

Ankit Mishra | 15 september 2015

Bro. You have been repeating this "I own Tesla stock, more kool aid drinkers please" a lot. I am in no way implying you to change your behavior, just a friendly feedback (which you didn't asked for).

eric.zucker | 16 september 2015

I am actually convinced many competitors actually bought Teslas to see what they're up to. Maybe even go as far as dismantling and reverse-engineering parts.

No wonder they would be all over these forums.

vandacca | 16 september 2015

@Ankit Mishra, thanks for the feedback. But why aren't you also making the same comments to those that keep harping on those that are critical of Tesla?

@Roamer is right that trolls don't usually last long on this forum (a few months tops), and most of the people on this forum are true Tesla believers. I'm also tired of people trying to squish the constructive discussion on this forum whenever it becomes critical of Tesla. Forums exist to have a balanced conversation and we also need to have some empathy for others situation.

vandacca | 16 september 2015

Furthermore, at the risk of repeating myself (and others) again, Tesla does still have a number of weaknesses that they need to work on. First and foremost is communication to its reservations holders. I'm happy to say that during the past month, I've seen some improvements that I hope continue.

Ankit Mishra | 16 september 2015

Hahaha. Both the sides are harping. There is nothing wrong in that. I just wanted to point out an obvious predictable loophole in your arsenal. A strong opponent is necessary to bring the best out. Hope you will do the same if I do a mistake.
If my fellow Tesla defenders also show a weakness I will point it for them too.

DTsea | 16 september 2015

Eric zucker, buying competitor cars and tearing them down is standard procedure in auto industry.

TeslaTwo | 16 september 2015

I am not a competitor, I'm an owner. And I'm devastated by the lack of folding 2nd row seats. There's no way my wife will buy one with that stupid "feature".

Anyone who says it was a good idea needs a reality check.

Tâm | 16 september 2015


Your advice to "Stay tuned for some real info in two weeks" is reasonable.

However, it is not logical to label those who are not waiting for two weeks because numerous owners have got the preliminary information from Tesla Reps as well as pictures from Signature Order Page as "competitor."

It is wise to collect consumers' input of what they value most rather than just tell them they don't know what they want!

DTsea | 16 september 2015


Tâm | 16 september 2015



We are human who have a wide range of preferences.

Some like long range, others like acceleration power, others like the look, still others like mirrorless side cameras and so on...

Tesla knows that so its culture is to strive to make the final product much better than the prototype.

Mel. | 16 september 2015

Roamed. +1
Congrats on your new order.

Red Sage ca us | 16 september 2015

I may not be devastated, but I am certainly rather disappointed by the 'slide forward only' second row, which seems... odd. I'm not at all sure how that made it past product validation. Obviously, I was not in those meetings. Despair, desolation, despondence, delirium, and disgust all seem to be appropriate responses. My sincere condolences are offered to Model X Signature reservation holders.

Ankit Mishra | 16 september 2015

@Red Sage ca us
Well said. Folding is a feature that if Tesla misses would be a big oversight.

Roamer@AZ USA | 16 september 2015

I was so devastated I finished my order ten minutes after opening the email.

In my S I can haul two people and two bikes inside.

I am betting my X will haul five people and two bikes inside.

But then with a receiver hitch I can haul bikes for all five on the back. Or even seven pairs of skis and seven people.

carlk | 16 september 2015

Folding is a feature that if Tesla misses would be a big oversight.

Unless it's intentional so they could put in there other more useful founctions, for targeted customer base, such as seats that can move backwards and recline. I know people's arguement that pretty much every other SUV has folding seat but Tesla does not have to be the same as everyone else and not be even better.

Ankit Mishra | 16 september 2015

In my opinion Tesla can't miss the folding capacity without a strong reason. Something must have prevented them from doing so. As you said it maybe a feature that rendered folding capacity useless, but Tesla believed that this feature will benefit people more. I won't accept that Tesla messed up here until I see the reveal.

carlk | 16 september 2015

The reason that those seats do not fold can only be other functions prevented tham from doing so. What we don't know yet is what those functions are. Tesla made the decision it must mean these are more important than seats that fold for the targeted customer base. We'll just have to wait for the revealing.

Ankit Mishra | 16 september 2015

Yup. I would update my statement above to "Folding is a feature that if Tesla misses would be a big oversight, unless it was missed to allow a great useful feature."

Mel. | 16 september 2015

Folding seats are so eighties. Comfort is in.

Red Sage ca us | 16 september 2015

Roamer: I am the resident Tesla Motors Certified Apologist Fanboy, so it falls upon me to... apologize.

God's final message to all of creation:



SamO | 16 september 2015


"The reason that those seats do not fold can only be other functions prevented them from doing so."

If the 2nd row seats face the third row, then the "space" problem will be eliminated and the hysteria can remit.

OHMY | 16 september 2015

If they don't fold into the floor- maybe they fold into the ceiling. Or sides. Or maybe they origami into upholders for the middle seats.

Roamer@AZ USA | 16 september 2015

@Red Sage. How can you apologize for perfection. Can't wait to get my X.

I can't think of any vehicle I have ever owned that how the seats folded was an issue. How comfortable they are/were to sit on is important. How they fold is not a big deal to me.

oragne lovre | 16 september 2015


I like your "thinking out of the box." Your second paragraph exudes ingenuity.


I like your 3-D imagination that conjures up dancing fractals.

We would not have had Tesla cars today had Musk and his team not imagined a car without an engine, would we?

grant10k | 16 september 2015


In my current car, the seats fold into the side of the car. You might be on the right track.

eric.zucker | 16 september 2015

I like the idea of the 2nd row seats being able to rotate and face backwards. Would be awesome.

Unless Elon met aliens in outer space and was licensed to use morphing metallic alloys not yet available on Earth. The seats can become a table, cupholders, barbecue, fridge, bed, home theater, and shower all in one. Oh, seats, too. Didn't he say the seats had an issue with one supplier? It's the delivery time from Alpha Centauri.

TeslaTwo | 17 september 2015

Sorry about the delay from my earler comment.

I am devastated because I SO wanted to have two Teslas: one for me, one for my wife. But there is no way we can work around the back seat issue. We have always needed three rows, and having a "crossover/SUV" with such limited space length has already made the issue impossible for me. My only hope is that this is only for the Founder/Signature cars. My wife has already used the veto. Not being able to have 6+' from the liftgate to the back seats is a non-starter when you have kids, a dog, bikes, soccer practice, trips to Home Depot, etc. You know: real life needs for a vehicle larger than a car.

This just makes the Model X a fancy tall Model S with less utility and less performance and range. It is a critical error. The Falcon Wing doors don't help either.


eric.zucker | 17 september 2015

I believe in two weeks you will feel much better. Tesla states the full cargo area is available, let's see how they do it.

ian | 17 september 2015

@Megawatt - Did you not know the X was going to be built on the S skateboard? I don't understand how you thought there would be that much room behind the second row if there isn't in the S.

vandacca | 17 september 2015

The Model-X is approximately 2" longer than the Model-S and potentially wider too. It is definitely taller, so things could be shifted around to generate a lot more space than the Model-S. For example, due to the increase in height, the motor can be relocated further back allowing for a much larger frunk.

rdalcanto | 17 september 2015

People who think a none folding second row isn't a big deal and won't affect sales, should reflect on how many sales Tesla had with their non-folding Executive seats in the Model S....

aesculus | 17 september 2015

@rdalcanto: Maybe Tesla thought the idea was good but the audience was wrong. Try the tune on the MX crowd and it might play :-)

From the discussions here and at TMC, I would say a great many are liking what they see.

carlk | 17 september 2015

@rdalcanto It could affect sales but we just don't know if it will affect sale in a positive way or negative way. Tesla, with much better info and data than we do, should know better. They did have focus groups when they were designing the car. It is safe to assume more people in those focus groups want to buy a car with this seat, which we still don't know exactly what it is, than people will not buy the car because of it. When dusts settle I can't imagine anything other than it affects the sale in a positive way, even when a few potential buyers may drop out. You need to stop spreading the FUD at least until we have all the knowledge of how exactly it is.

Red Sage ca us | 17 september 2015

ian t asked, "Did you not know the X was going to be built on the S skateboard?"

Multiple Tesla Enthusiasts have said this, I always protested it. I still don't believe there is a literal, single skateboard design, that either a Model S or Model X body can be welded to... I believe that for the sake of proper balance of different loads, they must be different designs.

That said, if the two vehicles share the exact same wheelbase, I am very surprised, because I always thought the Model X would have 6" to 8" more space in that area. I'm usually very good at estimating relative sizes between things. It is one of my mutant powers as a graphic artist, so this development means I have been taken in by an optical illusion. Something that very rarely happens at all.

carlk | 17 september 2015

I kind of think the two share the same wheelbase. Otherwise why X could not have a higher battary capacity?

rdalcanto | 17 september 2015

@ aesculus - I don't know where you are getting the idea that a great many like what they see (in regard to the second row not folding). The poll at TMC shows that 90% are UNhappy.

I've resigned myself to the fact that I will have to keep my Jeep when we get our Model X because the Model X can't do 3 things we need an SUV to do. (Tow our boat which is just over 5,000 lbs with trailer, be able to be towed 4 wheels down behind our RV, and have a folding second row to carry large objects a few times a year). Luckly, we can afford to pay registration, insurance, and maintenance on a vehicle that will only get used a few times/year. Not every one can.

grant10k | 17 september 2015

I wouldn't put too much stock in an internet poll.

It's self-selecting, so unhappy people are more likely to answer. It's terribly worded, with 3/4 options saying "I'm unhappy about it" and the fourth saying "I don't care". Finally, no one has all the info yet. There might be some crazy feature that's well worth the trade off.