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Would I buy the new i-Pace?

Would I buy the new i-Pace?

Maybe. Traded my Jaguar XF Portfolio on a 90D 2 years ago. No need to repeat the advantages of Tesla. All said, however, I do miss the attention to detail, especially interior bits, that Jag brings. Scheduled a test drive when they arrive in California. Stay tuned.

Silver2K | 1 juli 2018

Jag also introduces major reliability issues

danpettus | 1 juli 2018

Silver2K: Jags’ certainly have a well-earned reputation of unreliability. I must have been a lucky one. 60K miles over 4 years on my XF, never had a single issue.

Silver2K | 1 juli 2018

It's also just a commuter vehicle. Seems like a waste of money to me, but it's money to waste, I wish you luck.

Staying clean is more important than anything

Silver2K | 1 juli 2018

Your

avesraggiana | 1 juli 2018

If you plan to always drive within a 75 mile radius of your charging station.

jordanrichard | 1 juli 2018

Silver2K +1.

Think about it, would you buy a gasoline Jag if you couldn’t drive it out of state?

I know, I know, not everyone goes on long road trips. However despite that, just how many cars would the OEMs sell if they advertised that you can’t drive it more than 100 miles from one’s home.......?

Bill_75D | 1 juli 2018

It might not be his only car. It would work fine for me 50 weeks a year.

jordanrichard | 1 juli 2018

That may be, but the question/point stills stands. Would anyone buy a car that only had a 4 gallon gas tank?

danpettus | 1 juli 2018

Not sure how to comprehend the commuter vehicle comment? The i-Pace has about the same range as my 90D? No Superchargers. But I rarely use them so don’t see any difference as far as range and a daily driver goes…

danpettus | 1 juli 2018

... confusion on what an i-Pace is? Not ICE . Not short battery range. https://www.jaguarusa.com/all-models/i-pace/index.html

pnajar | 1 juli 2018

You should definitely buy the iPace. As more EVs come on the market we need people like you to aid in debugging these complex systems. To be a thriving growing EV market the cars of this segment need range, looks, fit and finish appropriate to the segment and competition to force innovation. The only way for any of this growth to occur is for more, like you, to take risk in buying these first products.

Mathew98 | 1 juli 2018

It only takes one disappointing test drive to get you back on track.

Anthony J. Parisio | 1 juli 2018

Where are the Jaguar super badgers? Oh they have none! Other than Tesla supercharger are few and far between. So no good for me. That being said, very good effort!

TeslaTap.com | 1 juli 2018

A better question is "Why would I buy the new i-Pace"?

It will fit a limited demographic, but I expect many i-Pace owners will be in for a shock when they realize it's not much better than a Leaf. Good around town, but worthless for medium/long distance travels. At least most i-Pace owners will be thinking about Tesla as the follow on car once they understand the limitations.

johnyi | 1 juli 2018

I gave serious thought to the iPace (and Mission E) before buying an S. Almost put $$ on a reservation. Looks pretty good, and Model 3 sized footprint (S is kind of big to me). I think it will appeal to a lot of luxury brand shoppers that have a family car for road trips and don't measure luxury by screen size alone.

However, I hope you're not in a hurry for your next car. All Jaguar has committed so far is it's coming "in the fall". Not approved for sale in the US by the EPA yet. Jaguar has been taking reservations since the beginning of the year. I read somewhere they estimate they will make about 20K/yr worldwide, with many of those going to high EV demand countries like Norway and China. If you haven't reserved yet, it might be a while before you can own one.

jordanrichard | 1 juli 2018

Danpettus, would you buy any car with a 4 gallon gas tank, even if that met your normal travel needs?

A simple Honda Fit is nice “errand” car, but even that can be easily driven long distance if need be.....

dvanlier | 1 juli 2018

If Tesla didn’t exist I’d probably get an I pace. Or if the I pace gets a self driving option before Tesla. Until then I’ll stick with my model x.

carlk | 1 juli 2018

Jaguar has never been known for making reliable car. And don't forget this is its first foray into electric cars. I wouldn't give much faith of how it will work out. Regardless of reliability and charging issues the car is way too expensive compares to the Model 3. Jaguar's attempt to compare it to the more expensive Model X is pretty laughable to say the least. The only thing that could be going for the Jaguar is exclusivity. Although that is not necessarily a good thing either. It only means less people would want to buy the car.

SO | 1 juli 2018

The more EV brands, the better!

rxlawdude | 1 juli 2018

Lucas Electric. Prince of Darkness.

2015P90DI | 1 juli 2018

If you use the argument that people make for Tesla being more reliable because it's an EV with fewer mechanical parts than an ICE vehicle, then the same argument could be made that the I-Pace will be more reliable as well.

Positives to the I-Pace:
1 - Looks, I saw it at the auto show and it was stunning in person. Of course this is going to be opinion based. The Tesla to me is more of a conservative design. Nice, but no real flash. I like a car with more edgy styling and a more sporty look. The Tesla is very elegant and subtle whereas the I-Pace is more bold. Fits my personal taste better, but again, will be a personal choice.
2 - Luxury, people try to compare a Tesla to luxury brands, simply because it's priced similarly. But, while a Tesla is nice, it is not "luxury". It is a technological marvel. That's what you pay for. It is minimalist. That's Tesla's way. It's a high quality car, but simply doesn't compare to the luxury features in a Mercedes, BMW, Jaguar, Cadillac, etc.. Again, personal perefence. Many prefer the simplistic design of the Tesla. If you're one that likes all the extra bells and whistles, then the Jaguar is a better choice.
3 - Proximity of service centers (depending of course on your location). If you're close to a Tesla service center, then not an issue. But for many, they are over 100 miles from one. Tesla's ranger service however is a huge advantage for those within range. I suspect that high end car companies will soon offer similar service.
4 - Number of service centers. Not sure if it's this way for all Tesla Service Centers, but every time I call mine, it's a minimum 3-4 week wait to be able to get my car in. Tesla simply doesn't have the capacity to handle the number of cars they have on the road. Only to get worse with a bunch of Model 3's being sold. They need to build up the number of Service Centers.

Unknowns - Jaguar will have some type of driver assist features, whether it will include some type of Auto-Steering is unknown. If it does, then that could offset one of the two primary advantages of Tesla - Auto pilot.

Disadvantage - Long distance travel. Clearly, nobody has a charging network like Tesla does.....YET. So if you do a lot of long distance travel, the Jaguar won't be a good fit. However, with most car companies investing a lot into EV's and many new models to be released over the next 3-5 years, you can bet the charging infrastructure will improve greatly. Tesla may then lag behind. Most new EV's are being designed for fast charging. Many claiming 80% charge in 15 minutes, which is better than Tesla's current Supercharger.

Additionally, while the Supercharging network is great, Tesla has kind of boxed itself in, being that it's only for Teslas. Good for Tesla owners, but most new car companies will work together with charging systems compatible with most other EV's. As such, EV charging stations will be like gas stations eventually and will work for any car. No different than unleaded fuel from ANY gas station being good enough to power all ICE cars. Also, while Tesla's supercharging network has grown quite large, there are still gaps of 100 or more miles through much of the country, limiting your charging choices. With all other car companies contributing, high speed charging will become like gas stations. Tesla's advantage will be lost at that point.

So right now, Tesla is the only realistic EV option capable of reasonable long distance travel. But that will change in the next 3 years.

Toss-up: Range. 244 miles of range is enough for 98% to handle all of their daily driving needs other than long distance travel. Yes, Tesla offers the 100D's and Model 3 long range with 300+ miles of range, but almost nobody needs that type of range for anything other than long distance travel. We've already conceded that Tesla is the better long range car because of the currently available charging networks. So, looking at just the daily travel needs of 98% of drivers and the I-Pace range of 244 miles is more than enough. Based on pricing for the I-pace, it is more competitive with 75D models of the X & S anyway, which have similar range. So, if long distance travel capability isn't a factor to the buyer, the Jaguar is likely the better value. For a similar price, it will include more "luxury" features.

If other car companies are able to offer 80% charge in 15 minutes, then Tesla will have to improve their network and charging capability to keep up. So, Tesla currently holds the advantage, but possibly not for long.

The two things that have kept me in a Tesla are, Auto Pilot and Supercharging. They still hold that advantage over all other EV's. But, other car companies are developing similar driver assistance features pretty quickly. With Tesla's recently added restrictions to AP, many have complained that it has far less value than it once did. So this advantage could too be going away until FSD is available, but that is still a ways off. And, all other manufacturers are working on FSD as well. Who gets there first remains to be seen?

My lease is up in a few months. I love the look of the I-Pace and the luxury features of it. Unfortunately, because of AP and Supercharging, I think Tesla will keep me in the fold for at least another two years. Although, I agree AP has far less value to me today than it did a year ago. Additionally, I'm one that has tired of the added time it takes to charge for long distance trips. When I'm in a rush, I do now take an ICE car as it saves me 4 hours (round trip) on one of my longer trips. Two years ago, there wasn't a second thought to anything but a Tesla. Today, it's a much tougher call. In another year or two, as other competitors come to market, it will be tough to justify the value of the higher priced Tesla with fewer luxury features. Tesla's finally going to have to adjust to having competition, with: Lower pricing or more features (better overall value), faster charging, more service centers, more charging options. This will be a huge advantage for the consumer as we'll finally have multiple options available. Choices are good for the consumer.

Tesla's had the market to themselves for the past 6 years. With no competition, they've been able to do things their way.

SO | 1 juli 2018

@2015P90 - The market will still be pretty much Tesla by themselves for years since the others appear to only want to produce small quantities of EVs.

As far as others having a nationwide network as good as the supercharger network in a few years, that’s wishful thinking. I hope you are right but I think you have an unpleasant surprise coming.

Xerogas | 1 juli 2018

@danpettus: don’t worry about folks saying iPace is useless without superchargers; I drove a Model S 40 with 130 mile range and no supercharger access for five years. Best car I’ve ever owned, and once every couple years we took my wife’s ICE for a road trip.

Silver2K | 2 juli 2018

Xerogas

The fact that superchargers are now available is what consumers will point out.

DRFLGD | 2 juli 2018

The Model S looks better.

danpettus | 2 juli 2018

@2015P90DI - pretty much spot on assessment. i-Pace is an unknown at this time. But so was my 90D when I purchased it. Tesla set in motion a new era in transportation. Thank you Elon for having vision and the guts to back it up. As the market becomes more competitive, means we consumers will have more choices. What I like about Tesla goes beyond the car. New innovative startup, California based (where I live), local labor, in an established market that many so-called experts said was impossible. I want to see Tesla continued super success. But, we all have personal preferences. I like a little more attention to details and comfort than current Tesla's offer. Enter Jaguar, MB, Volvo, and may others over the next several years. Will be interesting to see how all this plays out...

inconel | 2 juli 2018

Will the ipace have something equivent to autopilot? Maybe from Waymo?

carlk | 2 juli 2018

@danpettus If it's P90D Tesla already has had years of experience in EV when they produced your car. Not to mention Tesla is dedicating entire company's resources on EV and battery development while it's no more than a side project for Jaguar at this moment. The risk of something going wrong with the i-Pace I would think is at a much higher level than you buying the 90D or anyone buying a Tesla now.

Silver2K | 2 juli 2018

And they'll have 1 tech dedicated to the repairs like Chevy does with the volt and bolt

PatientFool | 2 juli 2018

It's great to see these other manufacturers produce viable electric vehicles. I for one am excited to see what other options we'll continue to see. As a Porsche fan i'm quite curious how theirs will compare if/when it finally debuts.

jordanrichard | 2 juli 2018

"viable" is subjective.

If an EV can't do what an ICE car can do, then it is not a viable replacement.

danpettus | 2 juli 2018

@carlk - Tesla may have, from the ground up, more experience in battery technology. But on the other hand, Tesla does not have the decades of experience as a car manufacture. Rather obvious. A personal case study is my wife’s BMW i3. Purchased before I got my 90D. She loves the i3. Truly a daily commuter for 4 years plus. I know BMW is struggling selling EV cars and crazy discounts, and some believe they are ugly, and so on. But for her… perfection. Does not drive more than 30 miles a day. But does that every day. Got to say, fit and finish is better than my 90D. Personally, I don’t mind driving the i3 although is certainly is not a Tesla. Range sucks, but we don’t use it for long trips. That said, it does clearly demonstrate a recognized car manufacturer can develop an EV that works if they desire and have an investment strategy. From what I understand, i-Pace uses the latest technology from LG for the battery and leverages EV experience from Jaguar’s Formula-E race series. Warranty is pretty good. 5 years/60K miles bumper-to-bumper and all scheduled maintenance service is included at no charge. Battery is 8 years/100K miles. I have no idea if the i-Pace will succeed for flop. I’m still interested to take a look.

Silver2K | 2 juli 2018

I would love to see others succeed but when you put no real effort into it, your destined to fail. Did Jaguar even home at a fast charging network? You do notice the long with 200+ range not selling well at half the price right?

I got by the old proverb, "where there is no gas station, there is no car. Your home too big to take on road trip"

Silver2K | 2 juli 2018

Did Jaguar even "mention" a fast charging network

kwen197 | 2 juli 2018

When the USA Jaguar dealers get it, it will go to the same fate as the original Chevy E car, recalled and into the cruncher.

jordanrichard | 2 juli 2018

Don't get mislead by the whole ""all scheduled maintenance included" bit. It sounds great, but what does that mean in an EV Jag. What is actually be covered. I remember years ago when Mercedes first introduced their "maintenance included" scheme. Miraculously the amount of service the same exact engine/transmission from the previous year needed next to no service during the covered period .Spark plugs suddenly went from needing replacement at 30K miles to 100,000. Transmission fluid, suddenly the fluid and filter no longer required changing.

danpettus | 2 juli 2018

From some of the comments …. It seems a desire to have any non-Tesla fail. Sounds a lot like the Tesla haters in reverse… just saying… again, not ‘sold’ on the Jag, but I do like what I see so far…time will tell… comments on supercharging … you’re correct, Tesla got it right on charging. However, we do charge the i3 with fast DC chargers for free (free for 4 years from BMW) and haven’t had much of an issue finding them…. Comments on maintenance, sorry about your MB experience. No so with my Jag XF. They did all the proper maintenance by the book for free for 5 years. Offered a free loaner car during the process… same with the i3… annual checkups with new fluids, filters, tire rotation, alignment, etc. free with a loaner car…. Next several years in EV land will be interesting for sure!

Silver2K | 2 juli 2018

Tesla haters don't have points, they just hates. What we're saying is they are going at it half heatedly just like all others, including BMW.

Think about how many cars @100k Tesla had sold compared to the electric cars off others at half the cost. The numbers don't lie and people are not stupid.

Silver2K | 2 juli 2018

Hates/hate
Had/has

johnyi | 2 juli 2018

Throw tomatoes at me if you want, but I believe part of the reason the other car companies have put off selling EV's is because they don't want to be in the fuel business. They know car building and just want to build cars.

The Porsche CEO (or maybe one of the other CxO types) stated in an interview that they were targeting 2020 as that's when it was predicted there would be sufficient high speed charging networks (at least in Europe), along with battery tech advanced enough to allow 20 minute charging, which they felt was the tipping point for mass adoption. Maybe it was all BS, or maybe that was their actual plan?

Mathew98 | 2 juli 2018

That's the timeframe they bet others would lay down "high speed" charging network so the ICEV manufacturers don't have to invest in any infrastructure. They can always blame others for not having a viable charging method so they won't be blamed for their EV "efforts".

If they heavily leverage ChargePoint / Blink types to build the infrastructure, they won't have any inputs to how fast, how many stalls, or how sparsely these charging stations would be.

SamO | 2 juli 2018

IPace is a second car. Just like the S40.

Jaguar making a half-assed attempt at EVs, while not evil, is just incompetent.

Superchargers are the special sauce and allow Driver’s to leave ICE behind. Jaguar . . . Not so much.

rxlawdude | 2 juli 2018

Again, jags have nice Tatas. Beyond that, Jags have the most intimate mechanics. Because the latter spend so much time with them. ;-)

jordanrichard | 2 juli 2018

My point with the MB story is that car companies only offer free maintenance when there is very little to be done during that period. Any maintenance that is time consuming and requires parts, suddenly don’t need tending to until after the the free maintenance period is over.
What exactly did your XF need in those 5 years, a hand full of oil changes?

Tropopause | 2 juli 2018

One iPace sold, 19,999 to go. If Jag was serious about EV they’d mass produced these things.

Also where are the batteries coming from? LG? China? No thanks. Tesla’s batteries are the best and getting better with each successive generation.

I am happy OP and wife are off gas. That’s the goal.

danpettus | 2 juli 2018

@jordanrichard Agree some of the stuff like “inspect” is a waste of time. But for an ICE car, some of the stuff is needed:

Every 15K or annually:
- Inspect, inspect and inspect … check, check, and check…
- Replace cabin air filter
- Replace front seat air conditioner filters (Jag has a separate a/c unit for seat cooling. I miss that)
- Replace engine oil and filter
- Replace wiper blades
- Tire rotation
- Replace intake air filters (2X on Jag), @ 45K
- Bleed and replace brake fluid @45K
- Replace power steering fluid @45K

By the by @Tropopause ... Tesla's batteries are mostly a Panasonic design and joint venture even the Giga stuff...

Silver2K | 2 juli 2018

The pack is designed by Tesla, the batteries supplied by panasonic

Tropopause | 2 juli 2018

Panasonic batteries are top quality. Panasonic and Tesla joint venture are even better. LG, not so good. Chinese batteries are even worse, for now. Just saying those companies that are committed to EV future will need a battery factory to compete in quality and price with Tesla.

qi | 3 juli 2018

Quite a bit of misinformation on the i-Pace.

1) Is it an Tesla competitor?
No. Tesla does not make that kind of car. It is a short, long wheelbase, off-road capable hatchback with luxury features available à la carte. Perhaps best described as a crossover with good rear seat headroom, but the packaging is not the same as their F-Pace SUV. It is a mix of Jaguar and Land Rover technologies.

2) It is not a tested product.
No. As of 6 months ago, they logged 1.5 million test miles on over 200 test cars. What that number is now is anybodies guess.

3) LG cells are inferior.
There is at least 200,000 cars on the road with LG cells. They have had good track record.

4) There is no DCFC support.
All cars come with L3 DCFC charging ability of 100kW sustained to 80%. They can be re-programmed to 120kW charging, the hardware supports it, but since there are not enough 100kW+ CCS stations, they nerfed it to 100 per JLR engineering.

5) It is made in India.
It is made by Magna Steyr in Austria.

6) JLR has no EV experience.
Partially true. Their experience is in racing EVs.

7) The warranty is poor.
It is 5 year, 60,000 miles bumper to bumper. All maintenance is included for this period. The battery has a 70% capacity guarantee to 100,000 miles or 8 years. Every 1 year to 16k miles (this might change for the i-Pace, OM is incomplete), a light comes on to notify you to service it. I would be surprised if there is any significant maintenance on the EV. The warranty and service is fleet wide, so this is for ICE maintenance. No maint sch for i-Pace is published yet.

8) Does it have Autopilot?
No. It has several safety systems including steering assist which follows the lane and senses your hands. It has high/low speed AEB, side-swipe mitigation, 360° view, ACC, HUD, blindspot icons on side mirrors, 'sleeping driver' detection.

9) There are no DCFC CCS stations.
Partially true. While there are more locations for CCS charging than SCs, they tend to cluster around high population regions. And they tend to be 50 kW stations, so if you travel long distances, you should be aware of your grid density. See Plugshare.

10) It is a short range EV.
This is driver dependent. The newest test that Tesla has not submitted numbers for is the WLTP. The i-Pace is 298 miles. Arguing about it is pointless until Tesla submits numbers, which are due Nov 2018.
Example: A Chevrolet Bolt EV has an EPA range of 238 miles. The Bolt is 240 miles on the WLTP cycle.

11) It has no OTA, CarPlay, AA, XM, etc.
These were not always present on the test fleet. The car was not finished yet. All these features are should be active on the initial batches.

12) 3 cars had problems out of the 100+ cars in Portugal.
All 3 cars were software issues on cars without the latest flash and were flashed during the press event. None were safety related, and none left anybody stranded, just required a reboot.

13) Jaguars are unreliable.
Historically, JLR has a lower than average quality rating. But this has been improving over time. They are not the only company with reliability issues who make premium EVs.

14) The supplied EVSE is 120 volts and takes days to charge.
Only if you plug into 120 volts. It should support 240v x 30/32 amps. Details are still sketchy.
It should gain 190 miles of 'driven like a Jaguar' in a 10 hour charge at home.

15) It is more expensive than the Model 3.
True. The Jaguar starts at $70k before rebates, and can hit $90k optioned nicely. All are EV400 powertrains, which are identical torque vectoring AWD 90kWh (84.7kWh usable) systems. Adding dynamic suspension, HUD, etc, etc, dials up the prices. You cannot outfit a Model 3 to i-Pace specification. Or even a Model S/X.

16) Jaguar is trying to capture the Tesla Model X market.
If so, they did a crummy job. It does not have the gullwing doors, can only tow 750kg, has a much shorter OAL. It has no 6 or 7 seat option. I believe the reason JLR produced a video comparing the i-Pace accel and braking to the Model X 100D was to show what level of performance the Jaguar is.
We have 4 levels of EV performance today. Hyper (P series), Very Quick (<5 seconds to 60), Quick for non-performance car (<7 secs), and Econobox Clones, some as slow as 12.x seconds to 60 mph. Jaguar wanted people to know the i-Pace is quick. Many people know the Teslas are quicker than most ICE cars, so using them as a yardstick made the most sense. Using an Escalade would not have made sense.

17) We know everything about the retail i-Pace.
The owner's manuals are only partially finished, and the JLR dealers are training right now in Irvine, California as we speak.

mscott | 3 juli 2018

@qi, thanks for this. Very solid, unbiased info. We briefly thought about an i-Pace instead of M3, but the lack of charging network, lack of EV experience at any dealership, and even longer wait sealed the deal for us. But it is a very attractive offering on many fronts.

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