Advanced windings on Tesla. Is that possible?

Advanced windings on Tesla. Is that possible?

Hi community, Elon & Tesla team!, i'm not afraid to sound stupid, but I feel like I have to ask you, because I've been watching these guys(We are talking about Russian engineers who patented the combined type of winding) long time ago, and they're getting serious things by upgrading motors using this technology. So, did you hear something about asynchronous motors with combined windings, which allow to save up to 30% of energy, while having less heating, more traction, and other advantages of the induction motor? How do you think, it's possible to try this technology in Tesla? or already in use? there is an english version of their channel, just look. On Russian version they upload much more information. Just check these videos: … They already tested this on Renault Twizzy(r/ …) and got awesome results. I think using this technology in Tesla could give insane boost. All what you need is upgrade your (for ex. on Roadster) 3 motors on Roadster with that technology and then full test a car&motor, seems like it is works really good. Tesla could be much cooler with this thing. Ofcourse if this technology alredy not used(lol).
There some quotes from their website(Google translate):
Simple change of windings gives impressive results: Reduction of specific consumption electricity at 10-40% Improvement of vibro-noise characteristics, the average sound level is lower by 5dB Increased reliability: service factor 2.5 Higher starting moment at 40% Reducing the multiplicity of the launcher current at 40% A higher minimum moment at 40% Greater maximum moment 20% Obtaining efficiency and cos close to nominal in the load range from 20 to 140% 3.
Using this technology in Tesla could give awesome results, i think.
These engineers, Mr. Duynov & his son gave name SLAVYANKA to this type of winding. So what is SLAVYANKA?(Google translate) It is a technology for creating high-torque low-noise energy-efficient asynchronous motors. Slavyanka technology-the use of additional stator windings. For the three-phase electric motor are used in addition to the three main windings, three additional - combined - arranged in a certain geometric way and also in a special way connected to each other. This technology is patented. Advantage of technology Electric motors "Slavyanka" are an effective means of reducing energy consumption and operating costs. Advantages of electric motors over conventional asynchronous: To achieve high efficiency in the load range of 25 – 150% of nominal, that in real operation conditions allows to reduce the energy consumption by 15 – 50% The increase in maximum torque by 10 to 100% Increase the starting torque at 20 to 50% Reduction of starting currents in 2 times, which reduces the peak load on the network and eliminates the use of soft starters The reduction in noise levels by 6 to 7 dBA Reducing the heating temperature of the windings, which, in fact, eliminates the possibility of burnout of the windings.

P.S. I found it quite amusing that Tesla abandoned mirrors, receiving a 5% increase in the range of the maximum mileage, while such technology as combined windings in fact exists & works, and main idea that it could increase maximum range much more(not to mention the other parameter upgrades).

What do you think about this ? | 31 august 2018

I can't evaluate this motor alternative, but Tesla has some very smart engineers. My guess is the performance metrics you state are over a generic industrial induction motor - and Tesla is far beyond that today with at least a 3rd generation design.

There are many variables in motor design and while it may be easy to improve one or two areas, it may degrade other important areas. Just a few of the considerations (some which you mention) include reliability, noise, efficiency, cost, manufacturability, weight, size, vibration, working temperature range, maximum RPM, torque, and the type of electronics needed to run the motor. So far it appears Tesla is quite a bit beyond any competitor in this area when applied to EVs.

Frank99 | 31 august 2018

Tesla has been quite open with their invitation for anyone with a better battery to get in touch with them. I've pretty sure (based on the unique innovations in the Model 3 motor) that they have the same attitude towards motor design. There are likely multiple members of the Tesla Engineering team that are familiar with Slavyanka motors, and could write PhD level theses on their applicability to EVs. Heck, for all we know they're currently designing them into the next-gen Model S.

Yodrak. | 31 august 2018

If you saw it on the internet it must be true. Russians would never exaggerate.

NKYTA | 31 august 2018

@Yodrak, you think they are building the biggest battery factory in the worl, and hiring Dahn is exaggeration?

Serious question...

adre | 31 august 2018

Still, I would like to receive comments from Tesla's representatives, sarcasm is certainly good, but it is much more painful when humanity passes by a more promising way of development of a particular technology.

David N | 1 september 2018

In addition to Tesla, have you forwarded you information to all the other auto companies who are or will be doing EV’s? (Which is just about everyone)

reed_lewis | 1 september 2018

I seriously doubt that this magical windings will result in that much of an improvement in efficiency. You might get a few %, but 30% is a LOT for something simple.

And furthermore, I am absolutely sure that the engineers at Tesla have already seen this and tried it. They are people who are MUCH more knowledgeable about electric motors than someone who finds a link on the internet.

jimglas | 1 september 2018

this reminds me of cold fusion, but I commend anyone who tries to make things better.

adre | 1 september 2018

Hello guys again, I apologize for the Google translation, I do not have the time and desire to process the translation, write from a smartphone, driving 30 km on a Bicycle, and it was a very difficult test for my untrained legs and ass. The first thing I want to say is that I don't want to offend anyone, or seem like a smart-ass, I've grown out of this age, thank you. I have two beautiful children, and I have somewhere to spend my time rather than trying to draw Tesla's attention for a week, or Elon Musk himself to this technology, while rememberin my terrible English since school, adapting it with Google translation. Let's treat each other with respect. Why did it occur to me that Tesla may well not use this technology in its engines? First, this technology was originally proposed by Nikolai Ivanovich Yalovega. Russian engineer. You can Google who it is and what it works about. That was a long time ago. And never received proper coverage in the media (at that time there was no Internet). Mr. Duyunov together with his son raised his works from the past, and for twenty years, improved and brought the General principles of application to a particular architecture of asynchronous motors. The result of their work is a guide to the combined windings of electric machines, which they successfully sell for 20,000 rubles apiece. That is, everyone can use the result of their work, it would be a desire. Now we have 1 dollar is 68 rubles, consider yourself. Now I want to bring a couple of quotes from the Russian forum for a more complete understanding for you why I'm quite assuming that Tesla could pass by this technology. But first you need to remember the windings of the induction motor. The diagram of the combined windings, in General simple. Inside the triangle is a star. But how to achieve it in nature, will have to shake the brain. Even experienced winders can not immediately figure out how to do it.
As you know, the motor coils are connected according to the scheme of a star or a triangle. Each connection is suitable for its voltage. The enterprises, which uses a 380 volt network , is mainly used connection * star*. Because in this case the coils are connected in pairs at an increased voltage. Some time ago, when there was a continuous theft of engines from enterprises, factories produced engines only according to the star scheme. So they can't be used in garages and gardens where 380 volts is less common. But the craftsmen dismantled the engine, found this point of connection of the three branches and altered the scheme into a triangle for use in the household network of 220 volts. With a capacitor, etc. But it is saying.
Why does the engine make noise when working? Strange question , you say. The noise comes from the bearings. From the blower . But there is still the noise of magnetization reversal. Noise is a fixed transformer. But the transformer deals with a sinusoidal voltage and the magnetic flux in it is also sinusoidal.
The situation is somewhat different in the induction motor. Although there are coils trying to arrange as much as possible distributed, still the magnetic flux is not strictly sinusoidal, and step-sinusoidal. This is indicated in the textbooks on electric machines. And with this phenomenon are fighting, but no one was able to approach strictly to the ideal sinusoid. But the noise eaten one to two percent of the engine efficiency. And you feel it immediately in engines with * Slav*. They work silently. Heating of windings is less. So the engine can be loaded at high power.
The ideas to combine the types of star and triangle connections have been hovering for a long time. These connections give the engine slightly different characteristics. But doubts in possible benefit from this apparently taking the upper hand. By the way, in the anchors of the collector motors there are windings on the wave and loop circuit. This is something similar to the star and triangle pattern in asynchronous motors.
There is another obstacle to the introduction of this combined winding. In low-power engines, it is difficult to place two coils in the same slots at once. And even experienced winders scratching his head, how to do it. Some have come up with to wind the coil immediately double wire. Yes, not all believe in the benefits of a new type of winding. In short, the case moves with a creak.

And second one.

In the simplest case, the scheme of connecting the windings of a three-phase motor to the star and the triangle, without taking into account the serial and parallel branches, looks as shown in Fig. 1. For "ease of understanding" of connection at the time, it was portrayed as in Fig. 1-1.
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In the future, it was simplified to the form shown in Fig. Two
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Well, then buried in the thesis theorists decided to" deeper understanding " to add to this scheme the direction of the magnetic field vectors than forever scored the brains of contemporaries and future generations: Fig. Three
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But they did not stop there and came up with the idea that the field in the engine rotates, which forever repulsed the understanding of how the AC motor actually works. From this moment this mystery was hidden behind seven seals years 60-70 while Nikolai Vasilievich yalovega decided to try to combine these schemes with a real motor Fig. 4.
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When combining the stars everything seems to be clear. Vectors in their places, but it is not clear how they can rotate? From the figure and the design of the engine (the coils in the stator are stationary, respectively, and the magnetic field vectors are stationary), it follows that the magnetic field of each phase can not rotate, but only changes its value from the maximum value to 0, and then changes direction and increases to the maximum opposite value, and so on. But not revolves. The theory of the rotating field arose from the theory of reversibility of electric machines - any electric motor can work as a generator. And the generator rotor with permanent magnets rotates. Hence, an erroneous decision that the engine field of the stator rotates. This is a mistake, this substitution of concepts. But we will not consider this problem yet. Back to the triangle. From Fig. 4 shows that vector when triangle engine cannot be accommodated. N. In. Yalovega placed them as they should be placed actually (Fig. 5) and saw that the vector of the star and triangle are shifted by 30 degrees.
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When we put a star or a triangle in the engine separately, it does not matter. But if you put them together?! (Rice. 6) need lay with shift on 30 degrees! From practice it is known-the more evenly the windings are distributed over the stator, the better the characteristics of the engine. Therefore, they strive, as far as possible, to lay the winding in a larger number of slots. With angles like clear, but the modules of the vectors of the star and triangle vary in size. Hence, the calculation of the number of windings of the combined star and triangle is taken.
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Re: a New type of winding * Slavyanka*
"Reply #6 On : 06 August 2017, 12:35:28 »
Due to the location of the star inside the triangle, the inductance of equivalent windings is about 1/3 less, which requires a phase shift of ~1/4 period. By placing the windings in the desired phase - on the turns and their number - it is possible to obtain the effect of how to save battery life due to better dynamics.
No revolution in electrical engineering has not happened, there was another surge of madness as always illiterate society-education and nothing more. For such concepts as the nature and cause of electromagnetism they were not taught and not explained, and to clarify this on their own they did not have enough intelligence.

The inventor and holder of the last patent Dmitry Duyunov seems to be somehow sideways refers to SKOLKOVO, if I am not mistaken. Hardly worth accusing him of ignorance.

Still full of sarcasm? As i already said, they tested it on real car, Renault Twizzy, link to YouTube is higher in this thread. I advise you to pay attention to the maximum power reserve in kilometers, after the engine upgrade. Do you understand what Tesla can achieve with its battery? AGAIN, IF THEY HAVEN'T USED ALREADY. If that's already the case, then it's a pity, and I apologize for my naivety.

adre | 1 september 2018

David N, I like Tesla.

Uncle Paul | 1 september 2018

As EV volume ramps up, competition will strive for differentiate each other to gain a competitive advantage.

I just read that BMW is going to use square copper wire windings in their next generation electric traction motors. This should allow them to get more compact windings and reduce the size of those motors. Get more windings into the same space.

Builders and inventors will strive for ever more efficient, less expensive, more powerful, cooler running and quieter motors to propel their cars. | 1 september 2018

@adre - Likely the only way to get a large company like Tesla 's attention on this is for someone to get a Tesla motor, rebuild it with the alternative windings and insert it back into a Tesla. Have the car spec'd before and after to prove it's a better design. A lot of work for anyone, but if it had significantly better results, and still maintained high reliability and other important factors for a vehicle, I'm sure Tesla would be interested.

While mildly interesting that they did testing on a Twizzy, that car uses a first-gen motor design, built in low volumes mainly as a compliance vehicle (i.e. the manufacture really didn't care about efficiency or performance to start). Tesla has been optimizing the entire vehicle design for 10+ years now, and is far ahead of anyone else. Still doesn't mean there are not future optimizations to be gained.

Also it's been stated that Tesla's motors are 90+% efficient already. Even if you had a 100% efficient motor design (which I don't think is possible), it wouldn't dramatically add a lot of range.

I'm not trying to be discouraging, but just a view from my engineering perspective. Perhaps the manufacturer of the Twizzy would gain a lot more than Tesla can from a better motor design.

adre | 2 september 2018

There is a interview with Igor Korhov, where he speaking about first expierence of installing combined windings on a car model of which named "Tavriya", he speaking about. He talking about getting full torque from the start moment, heating motor about 65-70 degree by speed 120-130 km\h. He installed a kit of controller Curtis + lithium phosphate accumulators + motor in 100 overall dimension, weighting 27 kg. And he got unique parameters. When he met a guests on a bycicles and then escorting them back, they was pretty surprised that his weighting 700kg electric auto shows a power consumption of a electric scooter level, by 65 w\h km, can someone say how much Tesla consumes? And this motor was upgraded without any active cooling. And that was usual motor, just can you all imagine what if Tesla's engineers doesnt using this technology ? How much Tesla's motor can be boosted by that? We need answer of Tesla's representatives. Because if they not using this, THEY SHOULD TRY.

adre | 2 september 2018
I'll tell you a terrible secret, quite ordinary asynchronous motors in the range up to 100 kW have an efficiency of about 90-92 percent. Not producted by Tesla's engineers. So there is a place to improve performance. And alternative winding way, it's a great way. Car manufacturers should try it, really no one has guessed it yet?? You write that BMW is going to use in the next generation of new type winding engines. This is the first call. That's exactly what I'm telling you here. It's possible that Tesla is already using this, then I certainly apologize for being naive, i just want a such awesome company as Tesla and machines they producing to be better. Just imagine what kind of total mileage can be achieved on the Tesla's batteries with the use of this technology. | 2 september 2018

@adre - perhaps I missed explaining the range point. If a Tesla gets 310 miles of range today with 90% efficient motor (which is likely better than 90%, but I'll use the worse case). If you improved it an impossible goal of 100% efficient, then you'd get about 11% more range or 344 miles. Nice, but not earth shattering. My guess is Tesla's motor is probably closer to 92-94% efficient today and perhaps the maximum efficiency due to bearing friction is 95%.

Sorry to say, Tesla has rarely responded in the forums, so I don't expect to see anything from Tesla's side. Part of that may be to retain trade secrets and/or patents they have filed on motor design, but have not been awarded. Anyway, thanks for an interesting view on motors. | 2 september 2018

I think the original Tesla drive unit operates north of 80% efficiency. The Model 3 design with permanent magnet in the rotor appears to be something like 10% more efficient. There is not a lot of head room for improvement.

Remnant | 2 september 2018

@adre (OP, August 31, 2018)

<< Advanced windings on Tesla. Is that possible? >>

After I faced your cavalier attempt at turning the Duyunov-Slavyanka-RMI innovation into spaghetti, I found this article that makes it a little more intelligible:

But before we examine magical windings of newborn motors, how about looking at some newer motors already in production?

(1) I'd suggest we start with Tesla's new M3 PM Motor:

Tesla has described it as a "Three phase, six pole, internal permanent magnet motor." and has assigned to it the moniker PMSRM, Permanent Magnet Switched Reluctance Motor. "It’s a new type, and very hard to get right, but Tesla did it!”

(2) The next motors you might want to explore are Porsche Taycan's:

"The Taycan is equipped with two permanently excited synchronous motors (PSM) that produce a combined 600 hp (440 kW). Porsche’s PSM motors were used by the company in the 919 Hybrid, a sports-prototype racing car that won the 24 Hours of Le Mans in the event’s Prototype-1 Hybrid (LMP1-H) category. The car maker states that PSM electric motors are the 'turbos of the electric motor milieu,' considering their capability to boast high sustained performance while maintaining maximum efficiency."

"Naser Abu Daqqa, director of electric drive systems at Porsche, described one of the strategies employed by the company to maximize the performance of the Taycan’s electric motors. "The coils are made of wires that aren’t round, but rather rectangular. This makes it possible to pack the wires more tightly and get more copper into the coil machines—increasing power and torque with the same volume,” Abu Daqqa said.

(3) The third set of motors we might want to look at is that of Rimac's C_Two:

"... while a pair of independent single-speed gearboxes apply drive to the front wheels, a pair of independent two-speed, gearboxes - one for each rear wheel - allow the C_Two to make use of its prodigious torque to produce both mind-blowing acceleration and true hypercar top speed."

"Rimac's own suite of electronic control systems means that full torque-vectoring is available (and necessary!) to harness 1,914 hp (1,408 kW) of power and 2,300 Nm of torque - two and a half times the torque output of a contemporary hypercar. R-AWTV (Rimac All-Wheel Torque Vectoring) replaces traditional Electronic Stability Program and Traction Control systems and enables infinitely variable dynamic responses, from full grip to extended drifting capability, to satisfy even the most demanding of drivers."

"With a top speed of 258 mph (412 km/h), a zero to 60mph time of 1.85 seconds and a zero to 100 mph (161 km/h) time of 4.3, the Rimac C_Two makes devastating use of the instant-torque available to an electric vehicle and the traction made possible by the unique drivetrain and bespoke Pirelli tyres. More than that, the Rimac C_Two maintains its eye-widening acceleration throughout a full-throttle cycle, achieving 186 mph (300 km/h) from rest in just 11.8 seconds. Such shattering ability equates to a quarter-mile time of just 9.1 seconds - a figure usually only associated with specialist racing machinery."

VAXHeadroom | 25 august 2019

Simpler: silver will carry about 25% more current than copper at the same wire gauge, so you can use thinner wire and have more turns. Torque in an electrical motor is equivalent to amp-turns and if you can shrink the wire diameter you get more turns with the same current, thereby increasing the torque for the same current. It's probably a $500 upgrade (ballparking there are 2lbs of wire in the motor) + labor, so not heinous and if you provide the wire a standard electric motor shop should be able to rewind the motor.

It'd be fun experiment...for somebody else! :D

jimglas | 26 august 2019

I used to do this as a kid with my slot cars. We called it rewinding. the cars were faster.