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Model S Plaid Prototype 1:36.555 @ Leguna Seca

Model S Plaid Prototype 1:36.555 @ Leguna Seca

We lapped Laguna Seca @WeatherTechRcwy in 1:36.555 during advanced R&D testing of our Model S Plaid powertrain and chassis prototype

(That’s a second faster than the record for a four-door sedan) - From Tesla

Darthamerica | 11 september 2019

And there it is...

"To be clear, Plaid powertrain is about a year away from production & applies to S,X & Roadster, but not 3 or Y. Will cost more than our current offerings, but less than competitors." - Elon Musk

https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/1171965230127009793?s=21

Darthamerica | 11 september 2019

I can't wait!

jordanrichard | 11 september 2019

I would have been more impressed if it was a version of the car that you can buy now or the very near future.

As with the whole Ring challenge, Porsche used a non production version to establish their record and Tesla has modified the MS to challenge the Taycan time. With enough modifications, any car can go around the Ring in record time.

nukequazar | 11 september 2019

Awesome!

Darthamerica | 11 september 2019

@Jordan it wasn't a non-production version. It was a pre-production version like what is currently driving on LA freeways today near Carson, CA with non essential components removed, vismods and some safety features like roll bars. Minus the safety features and vismods this is the car they are building.

DRFLGD | 12 september 2019

They’ve gone to plaid?

neezer | 12 september 2019

Go to Teslarati and check out the 2nd top story explaining more about this. Triple motors, wider fenders, larger and lower front grille, hint at the price range, etc.

jordanrichard | 12 september 2019

Darth, "pre-production " means NOT a production version, otherwise they wouldn't call it a "pre-production" car. As I have said Elon and crew are going to use a non (aka not) production set up of the MS to challenge the Taycan's times.

Also as I have said in one of these Taycan threads, you want an absolutely real apple to apple comparison, borrow two customer's cars and go to the track. That is what Elon should have Tweeted.

Tropopause | 12 september 2019

Would be neat to see the current stock Model S race against the current stock Taycan but the Taycan is not currently available.

Nevertheless, the media will not differentiate, thus the headlines will simply read, “Model S Beats Taycan on Nurburgring.” Regardless of pre-production or modifications. Elon and Porsche both know this fact.

Darthamerica | 12 september 2019

You know I warned all of you that MS couldn't beat Taycan as is due to hardware design limitations. Many argued against that. Then Tesla confirmed this and the forum went silent all night. Now I'm telling you that Taycan on The Ring is effectively Taycan that is coming to showrooms in a few weeks minus a few components plus tires and roll cage. Yet you still want to argue? Pre-production only means they haven't yet started mass production ramp up. This is not the same as prototype which is what Model S Plaid is. Proto-Taycan was the version with suicide doors. What went to the Ring is a street legal car that you can actually order right now. It's ok to accept that dude and it's not a knock against Tesla. It's OK

Darthamerica | 12 september 2019

@Trop current MS can't do The Ring and be competitive with a Taycan. It will fall victim to temp, braking and handling issues. Why would Tesla want to go head to head like that? The best marketing vs Taycan the current MS can do would be to either do it on Autopilot or load the car up with 5 drivers and do enough laps to exceed 300+ miles. Play your strengths... Those are areas where Tesla has many years of advantage.

Uncle Paul | 12 september 2019

How do you know that the record setting Taycan was exactly like what will be a production model.

Roll cages increase chassis stiffness and increase cornering speeds. Software enhancements can be used to defeat longivity parameters. VW is a master of these shenanigans. They even modified their production ICE engines to work around emission laws, and were fined $Billions by the Courts for that illegal crap.

Racing, at Corporate levels involve tons of cheating or bending the rules to get the win. German companies traditionally have been some of the worst at this.

Sorry, but I have a hard time believing that the Porsche that set the record time was simply an unmollested pre-production vehicle. Things don't work that way. Even Porsche has not claimed that it was an off the line production version with no racing modifications. Believe the inserted the traditional "ringer"

Believe Tesla will also be amping up their current production car to react to the challenge. The P100D+ at least was labeled as such and announced as such by Tesla. Feel that Tesla is being the more honorable one here. At least for full disclosure.

Porsche, and all the German premium manufacturers have lost a lot of credibility over the past several years.

SO | 12 september 2019

I want to see the Raven on the track.

carlk | 12 september 2019

Uncle Paul "VW is a master of these shenanigans."

Haha that's the understatement of the century.

Darthamerica | 12 september 2019

Uncle Paul, software CANNOT defeat "longevity parameters". You will break the car by doing that. I didn't say it's was "exactly like". It had some modifications and deletions for the track. But the modification was don't to the car they are actually building. When I race the first thing I changed was my suspension with after market components. I removed parts that aren't needed on the track to save weight or improve aerodynamics. But this was done to a vehicle that came off of the production line. This is the same for Taycan.

PolishFalcon | 12 september 2019

In the three motor configuration is the third motor in the front or rear?

carlk | 12 september 2019

You ABSOLUTELY CAN defeat longevity parameters. There is no need for batteries to last 200,000 miles on the track. Just list any ICE cars it will be a success run even if the car broken down right after it passed the finish line.

Darthamerica | 12 september 2019

@Carlk wrong unless you’re into fire. You can use software to exceed limits, but not the longevity of physical components. And these components specifically will melt and/or catch fire. I know you guys want to see this bad. But I don’t think you understand the severity of the problems.

inconel | 12 september 2019

I suspect with the two rear motors "pushed out" towards the wheels there is now more low space in the middle for two additional lower seats

Darthamerica | 12 september 2019

Iconel no it's most likely just the old version with rear folding seats.

Tropopause | 12 september 2019

Which Taycan ran the Ring? The Base, Turbo, or Turbo S? I assume it's a variation of the Turbo S which means the S and Base Taycan are unproven on the track in any variation.

Might we assume a Model S Long Range vs. Taycan Base would be good comparison? As would the Model S Performance vs. Taycan Turbo? The Plaid Model S could be a direct competitor to Taycan Turbo S; both being track capable vehicles.

Tropopause | 12 september 2019

Meant to say, "I assume it's a variation of the Turbo S which means the 'TURBO' and Base Taycan are unproven on the track in any variation."

Darthamerica | 12 september 2019

It was Taycan Turbo S.

Tropopause | 12 september 2019

Exactly. Taycan Turbo and Taycan (base) are not track proven.

Darthamerica | 12 september 2019

They aren't the halo car version. What would be the point of that? Why would Porsche or any manufacturer need to prove less powerful versions are slower?

carlk | 12 september 2019

@Dumboamerica Battery fire and battery longevity are two totally different things. The power cut back at 50C or so is to prevent shortening of battery life. It take a lot higher temperature if not exposed battery element to cause a fire. Please ask first for things you don't understand.

Darthamerica | 12 september 2019

@Carlk it's not just the battery. There is a lot of current running through that system. Be careful because it's clear you're delving into an area of engineering you don't understand. Watts = Amps x Voltage.

Darthamerica | 12 september 2019

@CarlK this is why you can't just use software: https://youtu.be/26CeNAGg8CM

Tropopause | 12 september 2019

Tesla uses software on Model 3- it's called Track Mode. Even Ludicrous Plus Mode on S/X states something to the effect of shortened battery life due to higher output. Just multiply that process for a track mule and presto!

Darthamerica | 12 september 2019

That will be insufficient for tracks like the ring or many multiple laps. The hardware has to be changed extensively. Tesla's powertrain is designed for highways with a little brief fun thrown in. Racing is a whole different thing. That's why Elon said A YEAR because they have to develop and then productize it.

carlk | 12 september 2019

@Dumboamerica Thank you for the formula. You do know I have a Ph.D. degree in physics don't you?

Darthamerica | 12 september 2019

Congratulations on your accomplishment Carl! Now please use it.

Tropopause | 12 september 2019

"They aren't the halo car version. What would be the point of that? Why would Porsche or any manufacturer need to prove less powerful versions are slower?"

Then why do you bad mouth Tesla's R&D to bring Plaid to S/X? If these are to be the track-capable versions, just as the Taycan Turbo S is to the Taycan line-up, it just shows that Tesla S/X had no need for track capability until Taycan Turbo S showed up. Drop the Turbo S version of Taycan and this track conversation wouldn't have happened because Taycan Base and Taycan Turbo are merely street cars without tracking ability.

Porsche just went the extra step with Taycan Turbo S because, let's face it, what else can they do to one-up Tesla Model S?

Darthamerica | 12 september 2019

@Tropopause take a pause. I didn’t bad mouth Tesla’s R&D. I understand how the cars are built and what they are built to do. Because of this I understand the kind of changes that are needed to duplicate what the Taycan did. I am simply discussing the differences between the cars and why one is better designed for racing. And I was proven right in everything I have said here. Because of that some of the fan boys and the charlatan are on a personal vendetta to avenge Tesla? Thats crazy. Let’s see, what did I say. I said Taycan is a different car from Model S. I said that Taycan has been designed to be better during a race. I said Model S would need more development and new hardware to compete with Taycan on the track. I said some people prefer Porsche and one of the reasons is brand. I said that the transmission, suspension and cooling systems give Porsche a distinct advantage for it’s purpose. I also started this by saying I hope the competitive pressure causes Tesla to built a new version of Model S. I said competition is good. What about any of that is untrue? Why are some of you so upset about cold hard facts? IT’S OK

A-Wimoweh | 12 september 2019

Think about it like this... Take a turbo Audi or BMW. Ever heard of chip tuning that car? It gets you more power out of the turbo and will make the car go faster, but hurts the engine longevity. But who cares if its just a test car and will never be driven to high mileage with expectations of high reliability? It just needs to work for a few hundred or thousand miles or so.

Darthamerica | 12 september 2019

@A-W it's not the same for an EV, these aren't just mechanical failures. If you cause an overcurrent situation, the car could literally blow up and burn in a worse case. But long before that it wouldn't likely blow out fuses that are there to protect the car. The entire power and cooling systems need to be redesigned for this.

RedShift | 12 september 2019

Darth, as an MSEE, I can tell you this : components can and do exceed their limitations for a few seconds to few hours depending upon what’s demanded.

You don’t know jack shit about what components are used in the hardware, and neither do I.

However, of the two of us, you’re the one who’s making categorical statements such as ‘software CANNOT exceed the limits’. You have no call to make such a statement. You don’t know anything about the components.

You may be very sure of yourself, but it’s plenty clear you do t know what you’re talking about.

Stop making such statements.

Ross1 | 12 september 2019

Remember the occasion when a Model X out performed an Alfa Romeo 4C while towing a trailer with another 4C on it ?

https://www.express.co DOT uk/life-style/cars/886776/Tesla-Model-X-drag-race-supercar-towing-trailer

That is what we need, a MS Plaid towing a trailer with a Taycan on board.

Ross1 | 12 september 2019

Top definition
Trolling
Trolling – (verb), as it relates to internet, is the deliberate act, (by a Troll – noun or adjective), of making random unsolicited and/or controversial comments on various internet forums with the intent to provoke an emotional knee jerk reaction from unsuspecting readers to engage in a fight or argument
Trolling on-line forums as described above is actually analogous to the fishing technique of “trolling”, where colorful baits and lures are pulled behind a slow moving boat, often with multiple fishing lines, covering a large bodies of water, such as a large lake or the ocean. The trolling lures attract unsuspecting fish, intriguing them with the way they move through the water, thus enticing these foolish fish to “take the bait”. Not unlike unsuspecting internet victims, once hooked, the fish are reeled in for the catch before they realize they have been duped by the Troll/Fisherman
This guy made a really rude and off the wall comment about my You Tube video, I think he was just trolling for a response, but I ignored him.

Give him a break...he may not be understanding the word.
Like me, I thought trolls had big noses and lived under bridges.

Darthamerica | 12 september 2019

Redshift, I did not say software cannot exceed the limits. I said that software that draws more current and exceeds the derating and junction temps of the components and wiring will cause catastrophic failure and quite possibly a fire! I do know that the current system is not able to handle it. I know what the typical margins are and I know how exceeding those margins would affect cost. Tesla isn't going to risk frying a car for the sake of fan boy pride.

RedShift | 12 september 2019

@darth

Software does not draw current. Now be careful when answering, you are talking to a power expert, for real.

You don’t know what components are used in Teslas. You don’t know their specs. You don’t know what they are capable of doing or not doing.

I do agree that the current system is not built for consecutive lapping, but it is built for high current draw because it has the better 0-60 without needing a second gear. Higher top speed too.

Though built built to haul 7 passengers, the S also promises speed and reasonably good handling (not the same as a sports car, though). It’s a good compromise.

Taycan? Not so much! Too many shortcomings: 4 seats. Lower 0-60 despite the boast of ‘consecutive launches all day’. Lower top speed. Very low range with a similar sized battery. Higher curb weight.

I mean, what the fuck man?

Despite your protests of ‘its targeted towards the Porsche buyers’, I’d have to shake my head. Why would you only target the ‘Porsche buyers’. Are they so dumb as to be taken for granted?

Boggles the mind.

Darthamerica | 12 september 2019

Redshift spare me... I've forgotten more about EE, ME and product development than you know. I'm not here to joust with or play word games with you. We are both Tesla owners and are good enough in our personal lives to be so fortunate. Act like it... Now to respond to your strawman. The vehicle is controlled via SW. The SW limits the amount of power. However you must know that in addition to the SW controls there are HW safeties built into the car that protect from overcurrent situations. You also know what happens if those limits are removed. You will exceed physical temperature limits of things like... WIRING for instance. Have you ever felt a SC cable after a charge? Kinda warm huh? Now what do you think happens if you send too much current through that thick ass cable? Model S is great but it isn't indestructible! You think Taycan is a bad car? Good for you don't buy it. But be objective. It's a car that is better designed for a racing circuit and it has demonstrated that capability under the most demanding conditions by a firm that makes things like this: https://youtu.be/KsLi7HgSuhI

RedShift | 12 september 2019

You are assuming overcurrent, bozo. You have no way of knowing whether the situation needs overcurrent.

You have absolutely no clue about what you are talking about. You are doing some internet searching and regurgitating. Software limiting certain conditions from occurring is not the same as software ‘drawing current’. Just accept you made a mistake and spare me your ignorance. I don’t need to hear about your internet researched wisdom.

Trying to teach me about warmth in supercharger cables! What’s your training, Darth? Can you share? Is it day-trading?

I don’t hate the Taycan. If anything, it will most likely have a much better tuned suspension than the S. On other things, not so much. Racing might be good for bragging rights, but looking at you not answering NYKTA’s challenge about which turn is the hardest at Laguna Seca, I’m sure 99% of Taycan buyers will never race that thing.

Lastly, if Taycan was designed for the racing circuit, why does it have lower top speed and 0-60 while having to rely on an extra gear? Answer that, genius.

Darthamerica | 12 september 2019

Listen Red, don't try to twist my words. Some of you are so bad at trolling and prevaricating that half the time I can't tell if your serious. I point out every time one of you makes some error or bad assumption and then you try to "quiz" me hours later after your Google research on topics you clearly don't fully understand. A quicky YouTube is ok to get familiar with very surface level things. But it's not a substitute for long actual experience. It was the fan boy crowd panicking when I posted about Taycan. The knee jerk reaction wasn't wow that's great, more EVs. Nope! It was about Model S 0-60 times. Unfortunately many of you didn't seem to appreciate that while impressive from stop light to stop light. It's not the same thing as a circuit race and that Model S quickly taps out right after the 1/4 mile. Then I had to explain to you about gearing. Hard headed, fan boys bragged about how Tesla's magic somehow makes it's single tall gear the ultimate automotive weapon and how Raven is going to the Ring to defend your honor. Wrong again and right on time Elon put any idea of a Taycan vs Model S head to head to bed. He even complimented the car. Somehow fan boys read it as sarcasm! Still not done fan boys started talking nonsense about SW updates to make things right. That's when I explained to fan boys that nope, it's going to take hardware changes. Again Elon a few hours later announced MS Plaid. When I went on to tell you why new HW was necessary, explained over current, you then try to twist that into me saying the SW is where current comes from! WTF?!? GTFOH. I understand enthusiasm and fandom. I'm a huge Tesla fan with hundreds of grand invested and more EV miles than most of you. But I am objective enough to understand the strengths and weaknesses of different vehicles. Stop making that personal. You fan boys remind me of a kid finding out Santa isn't real! Seriously, calm down. You still have a great car. It will beat 99.99% of any other car you can think of in 0-60. But for the next year or so, or should I say "soon" in Elon time, you're just going to have to wait for the new Model S with Plaid mode. Until then just don't get into a circuit race with a Taycan and you're EV ego will be fine!

RedShift | 12 september 2019

Go to sleep. Sleep deprivation leads to bad posts devoid of paragraphs, and rambling.

You have half knowledge, jerk. And you are not willing to admit that. You know the ‘typical margins of the components’ used in Tesla power electronics? The cables? The fuses? how do you know that? Without knowing what the situation is, you are simply blithely stating it’s an ‘overcurrent situaion’.

Me calling you out is not ‘making it personal’. It’s calling you out. You are just mad because people keep calling you out on this forum, and you keep flailing with your internet researched wisdom.

RedShift | 12 september 2019

You keeping bringing up your ‘long experience’. With what? You couldn’t answer NYKTA’s question about which turn is the hardest on Laguna Seca in the other thread.

Here, I asked you what your profession is, and you won’t answer.

Talk about ‘prevarication’.

Darthamerica | 12 september 2019

Red if you look at the Taycan, you'll see that the extra gear is there to allow Taycan to maximize torque at high speed. It will out accelerate a MS above ~100mph. The 2mph top speed difference is meaningless. Coming out of a turn and into a straight it will pull away more quickly. It will carry that speed closer to the next turn. Regen won't show it down until the brake is pressed. And because it has better brakes it will decelerate quicker. While MS is planning ahead for understeer, the Taycan will be into the turn. Rinse, repeat through a circuit and it will have a significant lead. That's right about when the MS SOFTWARE is going to start limiting available power to keep from over heating. MS will finish The Ring at least 30-60 seconds after Taycan. Until MS Plaid shows up that's how it will be.

Darthamerica | 13 september 2019

First of all you need to learn what it means to prevaricate. Second, automotive grade electronics and wiring have thermal design points, component ratings and well established price points. We've been building cars quite a while so it's not black magic dude. The one with "half knowledge" is you. Otherwise what I'm telling you would be common knowledge trivia. That you can't follow gives you away as a fan boy. Enthusiastic but uneducated on the topic.

RedShift | 13 september 2019

@darth

I lead a power analysis company. Don’t teach me about thermal design points. My original jibe was at your layman comment about ‘software drawing current’. If you knew better, you’d have said software that ‘allowed’ more power draw. Not just current. Don’t go teaching your papa how to fuck.

Still won’t answer the question about Laguna Seca? Heh heh! You are being outed for the fraud you are, bozo.

One other thing caught my eye in your previous post:

“While MS is planning ahead for understeer, the Taycan will be into the turn. Rinse, repeat through a circuit and it will have a significant lead.”

Wow. You know the MS will understeer, where the Taycan will... what? What does it do exactly? Oversteer? You have to educate me on this, pal. Is the Taycan tuned to oversteer? You seem to have driven the Taycan at length already!

Mag-racing. Fun, but the predictable domain of internet-educated half wits.

Darthamerica | 13 september 2019

Red you are the one who's been "outed". Notice how in spite of your poor soy laced attempt to get nasty, which doesn't work for you, at no point can you refute what I said! It's ok man, MS Plaid will make you feel better! Just give it about 6 months and you'll start seeing numbers. In about 11 months you'll be able to order one. Then you can come to LA and join me on the track and see for yourself. I'll bring my Porsche and Tesla to make it interesting.

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