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150 mile Nissan Leaf

150 mile Nissan Leaf

Nissan has apparently been polling Leaf owners about their willingness to pay more for a longer range Nissan Leaf. If they could provide 150 miles of range at a cost below that of the Model 3, it could become a significant competitor to Tesla.

Benz | 11. Dezember 2014

Though I like the Nissan Leaf, I really don't think it will be "a significant competitor to Tesla".

The Tesla Model 3 will be a compelling and affordable EV (the holy grail), and it will be capable to be charged at a Tesla Supercharger station.

The Nissan Leaf will not be able to compete with the Tesla Model 3.

The Tesla Model 3 will be the new benchmark for EV's and for all cars in general.

Red Sage ca us | 11. Dezember 2014

If they were talking about a 150+ mile Altima sized vehicle, available as a coupe, with similar styling, and the potential for Supercharger compatibility, they'd have my ear. Yes, even if it were front wheel drive. Yes, even if it didn't have what I expect will be the performance characteristics of a Tesla Model ≡. That would be a car I might buy or lease, while waiting for a Tesla coupe, and hoping that Nissan does better next time.

But if they are talking about upsizing the Leaf to the form factor of a Prius or Matrix... Giving it a maximum 150 mile range, a real world 115 mile range... No Supercharging...? NO. That would not do.

Red Sage ca us | 11. Dezember 2014

shensierra: If you are in Europe or Asia, you won't get a Model ≡ from Fremont before the calendar reads 2018. US deliveries will begin in 2017 at the latest. Oceania will probably get their cars in 2019, built at the Chinese plant.

james.nicklin | 11. Dezember 2014

150 miles rated range is probably barely enough to get from Phoenix to Prescott at I-17 speeds, and then you need to leave the car plugged in and walk for a few hours before you can safely make the trip back down to the valley. Without S/C capability anything less than a 500mi rated range is simply inadequate. That said, Tesla did release it's patents so I won't say that Nissan can't have S/C capability. Just have to wait and see.

gfb107 | 11. Dezember 2014

Using Tesla's patents isn't enough to allow access to Tesla's SuperCharger Network. They have to reach an agreement with Tesla, which includes conforming to Tesla's business model that bundles access to the SuperCharger Network in the purchase price of the car, with no additional per use or subscription fees.

vgarbutt | 11. Dezember 2014

Everyone keeps assu ing that the model 3 will be a performance car.

In order to keep the car at a 35,000 cost or below it will be a spiffy, quick and long range vehicle. I have never read anything about the model 3 anywhere that Tesla says this will be a performance car.

The chief spec of the model 3 is affordability, not muscle.

Of course it will out perform all others in its class, but i imagine, " performance" will be an optional upgrade of the motor(s).

If the leaf can get even close to the model 3 in range and be priced lower, it WILL be a significant contender.

But that's what we want. We want competition for Tesla.

Boukman | 11. Dezember 2014

Nah... I seriously doubt that a 150 miles range Leaf would be a serious competitor for the Model 3. The target range of the Model 3 is 200 miles minimum if I recall well, putting it ahead of the Leaf right away. Second, all the tech in the D series I believe will be included in the 3. Third, unless Nissan make drastic change in the Leaf design a certain sector of the market will always stay away... and of course you have the brand name that will always count for something...
In any case Nissan should bring it on...

FREE ENERGY | 11. Dezember 2014

Leaf next level....250 miles

TimV | 11. Dezember 2014

@vgarbutt

You are still thinking in ICE terms. The Model 3 will be designed for efficiency which means it will have a large motor (or two). By default it will have performance, as well.

blue adept | 11. Dezember 2014

Go Nissan!

I encourage all efforts by all manufacturers to electrify the transportation industry!

petochok | 11. Dezember 2014

@Red Sage ca us: "US deliveries will begin in 2017 at the latest."

That is way beyond an optimistic projection at this point. If you think they are stressing to make sure the MX (relatively unimportant model) is near perfect by delaying its release, just wait until they have the task of releasing the "makes or breaks" the Tesla brand model (M3). Its execution will need to be flawless if Tesla is to have a real shot at a successful mass produced car. They will no longer be dealing with early adopters, who understand Tesla's position in the car game, and are way more forgiving than the general public will ever be. If Tesla wants to minimize their risk of the car being plagued by teething problems after its release, they will need to take their time to get it right. That means a release date or prior to 2018 is highly unlikely. The time period of Roadster release to MS = 4 years; MS to MX = 3.5 years (projected). Assuming greater resources and much greater attention to detail cancel each other out (huge assumption, I know), we can estimate that the time period between the MX and the M3 will be no less than 3 years.

Iowa92x | 11. Dezember 2014

No TMS, no care.

Brian H | 11. Dezember 2014

cmc;
Think you got that profit backwards. If the Aus. partner has 51%, that the profit % they get, too.

Brian H | 11. Dezember 2014

typo: that's the profit ...

Red Sage ca us | 11. Dezember 2014

Once again, Generation I & II vehicles comprise the practice run by which Tesla Motors provided a Proof of Concept, established a brand identity, and learned to produce cars from a clean slate. Generation III, in the form of Model ≡ will benefit from all the lessons learned thus far. 2017 has been earmarked as the release date since early 2013. That is well within the length of time allowed by even the traditional automobile manufacturers, whose 2020 releases will be on sketchboards in 2015. Franz von Holzhausen has not been sitting on his hands in Hawthorne since 2012, when the Model X was revealed. Don't be surprised if at least two, and possibly three body styles are unveiled at the official announcement of these cars.

petochok | 11. Dezember 2014

I agree that the M3 design process is finished. We may or may not see renderings of it in 2015. That still doesn't mean the car will be ready for deliveries in 2017, in my opinion. I guess we'll just have to wait and see.

Al1 | 11. Dezember 2014

I would be glad to see improvements in any battery vehicles from any manufacturer.

Cueonly | 12. Dezember 2014

@Red Sage- I think it is very optimistic to think that Tesla will hit the 2017 target with the Model 3. Yes it was earmarked since 2013, but the Model X was also earmarked for release in 2013. While yes there is a huge learning curve that Tesla has learned with the design and release of Model S & X (SOON!!), it doesn't prepare them for a mass market supply line. I hope that you are correct, but Tesla as far as I know has never hit a manufacturing target to date.

Model ☰ | 12. Dezember 2014

http://insideevs.com/nissan-range-is-off-the-table-claims-more-than-400-...

Host: Is Nissan working on new batteries?
Ghosn: “Yes.”
Host: Can you tell us more?
Ghosn: “No.”
Host: Will the range double?
Ghosn: “Yes.”
Host: That means more than 400 kilometers (249 miles)?
Ghosn: “Yes.”

Model ☰ | 12. Dezember 2014

http://www.autoexpress.co.uk/nissan/leaf/88344/nissan-leaf-to-get-sharp-...
Nissan is hard at work developing the next-generation Leaf, focusing on improving the range with new battery tech and – as our exclusive images show – a more conventional look. The new car is expected to be on sale late in 2016, with prices starting around £17,000.

Model ☰ | 12. Dezember 2014

@cmcnestt
That is from British Autocar Express.
Likely 168 EPA miles or less.

I read that article to be the same 150 miles range talked about in this thread.

But the other article talks about a bigger battery.
Japanese show referencing Japanese government cycle test not EPA. Japanese cycle much more lenient.

About the same as the old EPA (remember the 300 miles Model S?)? So my guess is that this 400 km is probably around 300 km realistic range, and 200 km in winter :p - and that is in the line with Will the range double? “Yes.”.

Red Sage ca us | 12. Dezember 2014

Cueonly: I remain ever optimistic about all things related to Tesla Motors. ;-)

cmcnestt: Thanks for those data points! I suppose a Tesla Motors factory in China would serve that nation and mainland Asia then.

I do hope that Nissan is sincere. I am very disappointed in Honda. I really wish Chevrolet would take off the training wheels and ride!

Red Sage ca us | 12. Dezember 2014

Inside EVs wrote, "The Nissan LEAF batteries weigh in at a pretty decent 140 Wh/kg neighborhood, so if we're looking at the same weight and/or volume, you need 300 Wh/kg, which is in the range of a few chemistries today, including cells discussed by Tesla."

Hmmm... Apples & oranges perhaps, but... For some reason this is quoted as Wh per kg, instead of Wh per liter. Gravimetric instead of volumetric. Does anyone happen to have both numbers, for Nissan and Tesla Motors? My gut feeling is this isn't really 'in the range' of what Tesla is using from Panasonic.

My own calculations might be off somewhat. But I got ~252 Wh per kg for the Panasonic NCR18650A battery cells gravimetrically. The published volumetric capacity is 675 Wh per liter.

Red Sage ca us | 12. Dezember 2014

cmcnestt: Yeah, I seem to remember Elon Musk responding to a query about India and pointing out the high import tariffs, lack of infrastructure, and absence of incentives were all significant hurdles to Tesla Motors becoming established there.

Brian H | 12. Dezember 2014

Prior to 2011 the MS had a 300 mi rating on the 2-cycle test, IIRC. The 5-cycle knocked about 10% off everyone's numbers.

Model ☰ | 12. Dezember 2014

@cmcnestt
There was never a Model S rated at 300 EPA miles.

Correct. They changed to the new EPA before Model S was delivered, but it was designed to make 300 miles on the old EPA 2 cycle, that matches (more or less) the NEDC (New European Drive Cycle) where it does indeed get a 312 miles rating. When Model S was rated with the EPA 5 cycle test, it got 265 EPA-rated miles. To stay true to the promise to deliver 300 miles, the claimed 300 miles at 55 mph.

Edit:
@Brien H:
Prior to 2011 the MS had a 300 mi rating on the 2-cycle test, IIRC.

But it was never "rated"? Or does I recollect wrong?

Brian H | 13. Dezember 2014

Don't recall if the prototypes etc. had an "official" number. Wonder what the first Sigs' stickers said.

Red Sage ca us | 13. Dezember 2014

At one point the estimated target range for Model S 85 was as high as 320 miles. I think it was reduced as certain realities were made known. I believe that overall, the packaging of the Model S was simply ingenious. Superb design in all aspects. Excellent focus on safety. Forward thinking feature additions. But all that also added weight, which cut into Range bit-by-bit.

Model ☰ | 14. Dezember 2014

@Brian H
Wonder what the first Sigs' stickers said.

I may not recollect right, but I think it was rated 265 miles before the first Sig's. I recollect that there was some early rumors that some Tesla intern had "rated" the beta to 320 miles - 20 miles above the target - with the EPA-2 cycle.

jozegovich | 14. Dezember 2014

As a former owner of a Nissan Leaf, I am not too sure why some of the threads state waiting around hours for a charge in the Leaf, or no Fast charging? I had a Fast Charge port which performed a charge in 20 minutes. If they add a larger capacity battery, I presume the amount of additional time would be in the order of, no more than 5 minutes. Adding additional range might help some, but the majority of Americans drive a 40 mile or less commute. As I can attest from my 2 years of ownership with 40 mile commute, range anxiety is a false fear. I had more than enough range for my daily driving. I have never ran out of juice, however I have run out of gas before. Range concerns can easily be managed by how you drive. I averaged 153 MPGe for my 2 years of operation.
The Nissan Leaf is a Mid size car, a 5 person vehicle, with an internal capacity comparable to that of an Altima, however, slightly narrower.
The handling and features of the Leaf is that of a premium car, like the Altima.
Is Nissan changing the method of charging with this higher capacity battery? If not, Fast Charging is, and has been a part of the Leaf's design.

krissu | 15. Dezember 2014

I gave my Leaf to my daughter to drive and have the S now. Leaf is in few ways much better car than S. I would point out reliabilty, price, seats, space, preheating with seat and driving wheel heating. Space comes on the expense of looks of course. Noise isolation in the back is very poor, but otherwise if the range suits, like to my daughter, it's a damn good car. Fix the looks and multiple battery options bring plenty new BEV drivers on roads.

Iowa92x | 15. Dezember 2014

Nissan LEAF safety, rated poor on one of the tests. And again, the lack of a battery temp management is a problem.

http://green.autoblog.com/2014/07/30/chevy-volt-acceptable-nissan-leaf-p...