I had to vent/share

I had to vent/share

We (husband and me) like our P85 quite a bit but are far from the fanboy type, so we don't usually get into debates with other people about the merits of EV or Tesla in particular. However, this morning someone asked about our P85 and said that the charging times were a deal killer for him.

So I asked what he meant, since in our use the charging is always at night and it's only on the rare occasion when we go on a long road trip that we have to use superchargers, and they take about 20-30 minutes to get enough charge to move on to the next destination.

He didn't quite get it and I laid it out as follows...when I had a an ICE, I was going to the gas station twice a week (I have a 100 mile r/t commute each day). The gas station was about a 10 minute (r/t) detour from my normal route and then I spent about 5 more minutes pumping gas. So, I said, every week I was spending 30 minutes on fueling the ICE. Now, I just plug in when I get home and the car is fully charged in the morning.

I then did a quick calculation and said that I figured I was saving 25 hours a year with the Tesla. If I go on a long trip that requires the use of a supercharger, it's not more than once a month (likely less than that). So assume I spend an extra 30 minutes on this over the time it would take to refuel an ICE. That's a total of 6 hours a year.

The other guy was silent for a bit, and then said "I don't believe that."

There are fanboys, there are deniers and haters, and then there are the rest of us...

johncrab | 25. Juli 2014

You attempted to confront a crazy person with those messy "fact" things. That was very well worked out and presented, btw (note to self). The problem with such people who want to hate a product is that they cannot be persuaded by facts. Some people hate Microsoft yet make a fine living with their products. Some people hate Apple yet have never touched an Apple product. Some hate EVs and put up a mental wall around any facts so they can live in their made up world.

I had a neighbor who rubbished my first Prius because " has to haul around all those TONS of batteries." When I pointed out that the battery with its enclosure weighs 117 pounds, he walked off in a huff. Willful ignorance is quite a disease. Being armed with facts - priceless.

LEvans | 25. Juli 2014

What part does he not believe? the simple math? :)

You could have just as easily asked him how long he spends pumping gas each week...

Mathew98 | 25. Juli 2014

Yeah, there were two different drivers who pulled up beside me an exclaimed, "No way Chrysler makes this car!" This is after I told both of them it's a Tesla, twice.

Some people have long perceived notion of how a handicapped EV is supposed to perform. There is no amount of convincing that will change their ways.

Another curious passer by asked if the MS had enough juice to get on the highway...

Webcrawler | 25. Juli 2014

Some people just can't admit that they are wrong...

I work as a technical engineer for an electrical distributor. I have to deal with people being completely wrong but refusing to admit it all of the time. I have learned that the best way to deal with them is present the facts and not to offer any conclusions about them. Then ask them their opinion on the facts. Usually they will spout out the right answer and then feel good that they were the ones who came up with the correct answer....(Works great in front of their Boss)

It took me a few years to get good as this "Let them solve the problem for you" technique...

However, I did meet a real life Anti-EV troll at one of our customers. I honestly thought these people were just paid internet trolls, but he was dead serious about it. So, they do actually exist. He is a Ditto-Head (avid Rush listener) and he has drank all of Rush's Anti-EV nonsense. He knew that I had converted a 1974 VW Thing to electric drive and told me, at nauseam, why it was a complete waste of time and money. He clearly stated that I had completely ruined a classic car...

During our visit the account manager invited them to go out to lunch with us. He asked me to drive as he wanted to ride in the Model S. This Anti-EV troll goes with us. He did not know what a "Tesla" was. I simply told him it was a sports sedan. I hit the throttle a few times on the way to the restaurant and the Anti-EV troll was impressed at the acceleration and could not get over how quite the engine was...(Still clueless at this point). It was the smoothest shifting transmission he had ever experienced. He asked about the hp and torque and I told him. The Account manager and other customer were almost laughing out loud at this point but managed to hold it in...

He went on and on during lunch about how EV's took days to charge, could not "really" go over 50 miles on a charge, had no decent performance and were worse for the environment than good old ICE cars. He ask how "Slow" my EVTing was. I told him the 0-60 was just under 10 seconds. He ask how fast it was before the conversion and I told him 0-60 was about 25 seconds (40hp Stock). He asked about the range and I told him about 80 miles in the summer and 70 in the winter. Called me a lier a few time about those facts.

After lunch, we rode back to the plant. He kept talking about how nice the Model S was and how well it performed. Finally he said: "I guess you are glad you did not buy one of those slow EV's instead of this nice car". At this point everyone bust out laughing and told him it was electric....

He has never spoken to me since... ( I guess I broke my rule on this one....but it was worth it...)

NomoDinos | 25. Juli 2014

Webcrawler - that is the single best troll story I've ever heard! :D I thought you were referring to the band Rush and that "ditto-head" was like a dead-head. I feel even more out of touch than usual.

Just saw your VW thing conversion on Youtube, very cool!

SeattleSid | 25. Juli 2014

Far be it from me to bring politics into this or any thread. But I spend a lot of time thinking and writing about it, had a weekly mostly-political newspaper column, a blog, etc... It's among the most puzzling, distressing, and, ultimately frightening things that nowadays, in the US, one's relationship with facts can, as a general rule (present company on these fora excepted, naturally) be predicted by knowing one's political party affiliation.

And far be it from me to attach party names to such a statement. But in the US belief in climate change is split entirely along party lines; as is enthusiasm for alternative energy, and, possibly to a lesser extent, concern for human impact on the environment. Not to mention belief in evolution, or in the need to teach actual science in schools.

In fairness I'll say that the other political persuasion is the main source of resistance to vaccines and of credulity regarding "alternative" medicine. But in general those with those views in that party are hardly mainstream, nor, with the exception of one US Senator I can think of, are those views part of the party ideology.

It does, of course, relate to this discussion. And I think the EV "revolution" is as inevitable as rising sea levels; so in that sense it doesn't matter what the people mentioned above think. But when such thinking is becoming more and more mainstream within our body politic, it bodes very ill for the prospects of the US in a more and more complicated world, wherein our "competition" is, for the most part, very committed to education based on reality. Scientific reality, anyway.

ir | 25. Juli 2014

I use the comparison to a cell phone. "How much time do you spend WAITING for your phone to charge?"

You plug it in at night and it is ready to use the next day. So, zero wait time.

DTsea | 25. Juli 2014

Seattlesid, that is seattle orthodoxy. But it's wrong. Plenty of Seattleites who are good Democrats have a lot of silly ideas which they won't discuss and treat as religious dogma too.

akikiki | 25. Juli 2014

Webcrawler, I've seen your pics of your "thing" on the web. Wow. Didn't know that was you on this forum. Impressive accomplishment. Thanks for sharing.

laurimoss | 25. Juli 2014

Just as an FYI...politically, I'm a conservative and I am a regular Rush Limbaugh listener. Just to add a little variety into the mindset that conservative Rush listeners are anti-EV. Like Rush says, he is 99.7% accurate. The EV topic is the bulk of the .3% where he's not.

(I'm really not interested in a political debate here, but since my original post was turned into a political discussion I feel obligated to respond). And the guy I was talking to was driving a BMW 6 series that used to sport an Obama sticker during election the stereotypes are just that)

SeattleSid | 25. Juli 2014

Okay, well, I don't want to prolong the agony; but is it true or is it false that climate change denialism is pretty much exclusive to one party? Is it true or not true that denigration of "green energy" is exclusive to one party? And is it true or not true that I pointed out a certain category of idiocy on the other side as well?

I'll try not to respond further, and return control of your screen, horizontal and vertical.

bobrobert | 25. Juli 2014

WebCrawler, quite possibly the best disposal of a naysayer yet. Admiration is so great that I resist the obvious alliterations for 'ditto head.'

mrspaghetti | 25. Juli 2014

@johncrab - I wouldn't say it was a crazy person, I'd call him typical homo sapiens. Most of us are capable of amazing resistance to facts under the right circumstances. I know I've been guilty of that, and probably will be again (despite actively trying to avoid it.)

I was with a group of folks recently who are very conservative and someone brought up EVs. The comment was, "how long will it be before they just stop making those pieces of junk?". I didn't say much since I respect this person and didn't think I'd be able to change his mind short of a test drive. Afterwards I realized that for most of the history of EVs his thinking was not all that far off. It's only in recent years that anything remotely resembling a practical car has emerged, and most people still have not even heard of the Model S. I quietly resolved to give him a ride in my MS after I get it, and now that I've read Webcrawler's hilarious story I will have to consider whether to reveal it as an EV at the outset - to him or anyone else. I probably will tell this man so as not to let him embarrass himself, but maybe not everyone :)

Great story!

laurimoss | 25. Juli 2014

SeattleSid, I don't think your stereotypes are appropriate for this forum. There are political boards if you'd like to rant about your misguided theories. Please don't do it here.

DTsea | 25. Juli 2014

Seattlesid there is plenty of other denial isms the left is blind to as well. Human nature, economics etc

mrspaghetti | 25. Juli 2014

I'd also like to point out that people oppose various policies that are labeled 'green' for different reasons, including the unintended consequences they produce. So lumping everyone together who's not full-throttle on-board with everything that is marketed as 'renewable' or whatever is just a convenient way to dismiss any rational arguments against the opposing position. Which comes full-circle to the subject of resistance to facts.

J.T. | 25. Juli 2014

@Seattle Sid Say whatever you like. I might not agree with you but you have my respect and my support.

jai9001 | 25. Juli 2014


"SeattleSid, I don't think your stereotypes are appropriate for this forum. There are political boards if you'd like to rant about your misguided theories. Please don't do it here."

You call them sterotypes and I call it reality.

Is it more likely for a climate-change denier to be a Republican or a Democrat?

Are the more liberal states in US more or less proactive about climate change legislation?

Could climate-change legislation (in any form) pass a Republican controlled senate? Would a Republican president sign it?

Can you name many prominent Republican politicians that are strongly advocating for EV technology?

These questions are not stereotyping, but can answered with facts.

DTsea | 25. Juli 2014

That doesn't necessarily mean they are denying facts. There is at best a weak correlation between eV adoption and impact on environment.

The stronger argument is on energy independence.

hcwhy | 25. Juli 2014

Back in the day, Jimmy Carter made a big deal out of putting solar panels at the White House. Ronald Reagan made a big deal out of taking them down. An isolated incident or a sign of party attitude?

cantcurecancer | 25. Juli 2014

There is a very strong correlation between EV adoption and impact on the environment. EV have and always will be more efficient than ICE. At least the ICE you find on 4 or more wheels.

And energy independence is going to go out the window when we enter the energy crisis. By mid-century global energy usage is going to at least double from population increases alone. That's assuming living conditions do not improve in the developing countries (they will). Unless there's a huge breakthrough in solar (probably won't be), we're going to be stuck using coal, oil, and natural gas for the foreseeable future.

So what do we do? We need to refer to "Reduce, reuse, recycle" Reducing the amount of energy needed to drive a car one mile and using coal is better than needing 10x that energy from renewables.

The energy crisis isn't going to be solved on the supply side, we need to control demand. Converting the fleet to EVs greatly reduces the amount of energy we'll need transportation-wise.

carlk | 25. Juli 2014

It's hard to explain to non-owners how nice feeling it is not having to take a detour to the gas station every few days rain or snow.

AmpedRealtor | 25. Juli 2014

Decades of cuts to public education are paying off in spades.

johncrab | 25. Juli 2014

@Webcrawler - I bow before your greatness! That was a b-slap to end all b-slaps.

dougsr | 25. Juli 2014

A few years ago I saw an article in Forbes magazine. It was about a crazy CEO that was installing solar panels on houses for free and leasing them to the owners. All I knew about solar panels up to that point was that it would cost $30,000 to install them and the ROI would be decades. That was not an option.
But this article stirred up something in me and I decided to check out the website and do 'my research'. A few months later Solar City installed my panels in Phoenix and my electic bill is GONE!!!

Now I see this beautiful car in a local mall and start 'my research' again. TESLA. WOW is all I can say. Well, I said EXPENSIVE too!! :) I am a Tesla believer and I will own one in the future. I have some financial things to get in order first.

I say all of that to say this. I'm a conservative. I didn't put up solar panels to 'save the environment'. I'm not a Tree Hugger either. I did it TO SAVE MONEY! If I can help the environment at the same time, then that is a bonus.

Same with the Tesla, I don't mind buying gas, but why not go electric? As this board has mentioned, Range Anxiety is a real concern for most people. But technology is starting to eliminate that fear. Gen 3 could erase that fear altogether. By the time Gen 3 is produced, the Supercharger network will cover almost every mile within the US.

I have become hooked on the Tesla (not all hybrids or other EV, JUST TESLA) because of the technology and the range. I will drive the Tesla for the joy of driving, not because it is a political statement or ideology.

I can't wait to have my key FOB!!!

renwo S alset | 25. Juli 2014

dougar. "I did it TO SAVE MONEY! If I can help the environment at the same time, then that is a bonus."
A very simple approach, but also very effective.

Webcrawler | 25. Juli 2014

I did not really mean to bring politics into this. That guy is just odd. Most Model S owners I know are quite conservative in their politics. I am more or less an anti-RepublaCrat. I would like to replace the elections system with something along the lines of Jury duty...

Most Rush listeners I know refer to themselves as Ditto-Heads so I though it was a common term from the listener base. No offense intended...

laurimoss | 25. Juli 2014

renwo S alseT: I guess I made the mistake of posting on a topic that WASN'T political and having someone come in to take the threat totally off topic with a political screed.

If this is the way the forum works, I hope Tesla shuts it down. I came here to discuss the Tesla car, not the tangential political issues that swirl about.

You and the others who hijack threads to take cheap and biased political shots are doing a grave disservice to this company and the community of owners. It's leaving me with the taste of being part of some type of vapid political cult. Since this is a forum sponsored by TESLA, I would hope that they would excise the political attacks and leave those for the private forums. Otherwise, Tesla is allowing a small group of extremists to tarnish their brand.

Grinnin'.VA | 25. Juli 2014

@laurimoss | JULY 25, 2014:

"I would hope that they would excise the political attacks and leave those for the private forums. Otherwise, Tesla is allowing a small group of extremists to tarnish their brand."

Sadly, I agree with you.

To ALL: Can we please focus on Tesla's cars and related things, and leave politics and religion out of it?

Ron "(

laurimoss | 25. Juli 2014

Grinnin': Thanks. This morning, before posting here, I was marveling at how amazing this car is. Now, I have a bad taste in my mouth that I'm driving around a car that apparently is a political statement, and I don't like that. The car is a TECHNOLOGICAL statement, and an amazing one at that.

J.T. | 25. Juli 2014

I happen to think that political discussions on this Forum are very helpful to the community. They prove that people who disagree on everything can agree on Tesla. It brings us together. That's a good thing.

Bighorn | 25. Juli 2014

Plus Sid is super old, so cut him some slack:)

HurricaneFodder | 25. Juli 2014

Both parties suck, all politicians suck and the Whole system is corrupt. The Model S gets my vote.

shop | 25. Juli 2014

Seattle - why must you take threads (this is far from the first you've done this to) that could possibly be redirected into politics and redirect them into politics?

This is a Tesla board. We all like Teslas. Keeping that in mind, why piss off some of us forum members by veering into politics?

Politics, sex and religion, are the big three topics never to bring up in conversations with non-like minded people. If you want to pick a verbal fight, go somewhere else.

Here we'd all like to talk about Teslas...

shop | 25. Juli 2014

@laurimoss, don't let those without manners get you down.

shop | 25. Juli 2014

Oh, and about the original topic - yes that EV hater was illogical and closed minded. But people like that really don't matter to the EV movement one iota. The fact is that Tesla cannot make EVs fast enough right now as it is. In 10 or 20 years, when half of all new cars are EVs, people like that will take a second look.

newscutter | 25. Juli 2014

Count me in as a conservative in a Tesla.
I didn't buy into a cult, I didn't buy into a political movement.

I bought an amazing machine built by Americans, in America, by an immigrant who achieved the American dream and which runs on American energy. If I bought into anything, it was the belief that American cars can AGAIN be innovative and worthy of our aspirations.

True, I happen to like blue skies and the sparkling clear water in my creek and think trees are magnificent and gorgeous creations (especially if crafted into equally gorgeous flooring and furniture).

I do not ascribe to the idea that my views are solely correct and that I should isolate myself from people who believe differently-- quite the contrary, in fact. I believe the problem with both sides of the spectrum is the tendency to find personal friends who disagree to be intolerable. It's much easier to demonize people when you don't know them by name, after all.

@laurimoss et al, I agree politics have ample webspace to occupy OTHER than these Tesla forums. We didn't settle for the "status quo" when we bought our cars-- let's not settle for it here either.

This astoundingly good car is better than that and the idea of it is bigger than either political party.

Dramsey | 25. Juli 2014

@SeattleSid: Okay, well, I don't want to prolong the agony; but is it true or is it false that climate change denialism is pretty much exclusive to one party? Is it true or not true that denigration of "green energy" is exclusive to one party?

Is it true or false that anti-vaccination whackos are pretty much exclusive to one party? Is it true or not true that anti-GMO sentiment is pretty much exclusive to one party?

Actually, both your and my assertions are false. Perception is not reality.

Which kinda leads back to the OP's point: what people think they know about a subject often doesn't correlate very closely with what they actually know; be it EVs or the perceived scientific literacy of "the others"-- you know, those troglodytes over there, the ones that don't think right.

FWIW, I find Rush vast fun to listen to, agree with many of his positions, own a Model S, and used to be a Mensa member, way back in my halcyon college days. And I actually have a degree in a scientific discipline (biology) but made my living as a programmer.

jjs | 25. Juli 2014

Not sure about the correlation between rep/dem, green/EVs etc. I think people in general and those on this forum are much more nuanced than many give them credit for.

However there is one correlation that is proving to be 100% accurate. When I come across a new forum topic, one I have not seen before, and it has 20, 30 40+ posts is a very short period of time....100% of the time it has been hijacked by political rancor which has very little to do with the original topic. I don't think this correlation is red or blue, more like a dull gray. You know the color that lacks humor, appreciation and respect. IMHO

mrspaghetti | 25. Juli 2014

The 'Please ignore' thread would be the exception :)

Mark K | 26. Juli 2014

I think a lot of us on this forum are in effect "conservables".

It's sort of absurd to try to get things done if you manage a business or even a household, without practicing elements from both conservative and liberal ideals.

Political parties don't solve problems, they make them. They split us into gangs instead of thinking individuals. The internecine warfare is toxic to our society and needs to fade into the past.

I think it's very cool that people of such diverse political views can rally round a product - a car, of all things - and band together to make things better.

And we are.

A very amazing car this is, to cause such a phenomenon.

logicalthinker | 26. Juli 2014

+1 Mark K

You can believe whatever you want. I'm #mainlylibertarian (was influenced by Musk).

But know this: everybody who tries the Model S loves it. All colors, all creeds, no exceptions.

And Tesla is the most awesome expression of the good aspects of American freedom that I've seen in my lifetime.

That's what this forum is all about.

Boukman | 26. Juli 2014

@laurimoss...I am a Tesla fan but not a fanboy...I TRY to look at Teslas with a clear mind...that being said...People are (usually) resistant to change, sometimes even if the status quo will eventually kill them. It's understandable for when you get into a comfort zone, whether it's good or bad for you, you develop a sort of numbness and more often than not you need to be shaken to get out of it.(ever heard of the tale of the toad that gets boiled?). However, in the case of ICEVs and EVs, it is a bit more than that. There is a whole group of industries that feel threatened by Tesla and they will try to resist as long as they can and by all and any means necessary. I will list a few...the car dealership (well known Tesla opponents) industry, the gasoline (oil) industry, the car maintenance industry( repairs and parts)...I understand very well because when you think about it, Tesla is actually an existential threat to these people. The problem is that they have not realized that the EV movement is an irresistible force that has been pushing back for a long time, albeit sheepishly I admit. You can find people who have converted to electric a long time ago all over the internet...A car like the MS is the wake up call that has gotten everyone's attention and now the naysayers are coming out of the woods in drove...(I can't wait to hear what they say when the MX comes out, I hope Tesla does an even better job with it)
There are other things that I could bring up here but I am afraid its starting to look like I am forget about them haters and enjoy your MS... they are probably just jealous.

drax7 | 26. Juli 2014

Love tesla, the engineering elegance, the car and Elon. I dislike Obama and socialism .

karmamule | 26. Juli 2014

I love the variety of people drawn to the Tesla community. I'm pretty far lefty-liberal, and while I don't see buying a Tesla as a 'political statement', I do see it as part of trying to live up to some of the ideals I hold dear. (That I get to satisfy the gadget-aholic side of me at the same time is an amazing bonus.)

@newscutter nailed it when he talked about not seeing one's views as solely correct and not living in some echo chamber that doesn't allow friendly socializing with people who believe differently.

What a tribute to the genius of the folks behind Tesla that they've made something that is drawing us all in. Bravo!!

Thomas N. | 26. Juli 2014

You all do recall that this is Sid, right?

And this is also Sid. right?

I don't care if the guy believes this or that about politics but then again I care little about one's political or religious beliefs.

This guy has saved a lot of lives and is an incredible writer. If you can't see his passion from the two linked stories above well then I feel sorry for you.

I'm not saying this buys him a pass on all things, I'm just saying it's not important.

Say what you want, Sid.

njelectric | 26. Juli 2014

+1 karma mule. When I got my first Prius most people buying them were Greens but now many people buy them because it is an amazingly practical car. Tesla was able to apeal to a broad spectrum of drivers right from the start. Geeks, Greens, speed junkies, fine automobile appreciaters all love the car. I got mine for all of the above. The forum as a whole is a great community. Funny, interesting and informative. If I do not like where a thread is going I just move on to the next one. OP should not let one view she disagrees with sour her on the car or the forum.

mrspaghetti | 26. Juli 2014

Don't forget techy smartasses :)

mrspaghetti | 26. Juli 2014

@Amped - Tesla is NOT a "progressive" company. The word "progressive" is a synonym for "socialist", which implies an appeal to govt to solve perceived societal problems. Tesla has never done nor advocated this to my knowledge, nor has Elon. If that was the Tesla philosophy I would never buy a car from them, nor would I want to since such a philosophy could never produce a game-changer as Tesla has. They would be another obscure little movement followed only by radical true-believers and never get anywhere.

SamO | 26. Juli 2014

Definition of progressive: a person advocating or implementing social reform or new, liberal ideas.

synonyms: innovator, reformer, reformist, liberal, libertarian

So, no, progressive x= socialist.