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Solar panels to charge MS

Solar panels to charge MS

I realize this is a little off topic, but I get the feeling there are a few experts here on solar panels. How big do the panels on your house need to be in order to be effective? What cost are we looking at? Is it worth it financially if electricity is .09/KWH where I live?

Thanks,
Rick

Earl and Nagin ... | 26. April 2013

I think that gas prices are more important to compare with than electricity -- it gives you better numbers :-)
The other very key things to think about are:
1) What region you live in. Some places get more sun exposure than others. Look at a solar insolation map to see how many kWh/m2/day you can expect for your area.
2) Your house. Do you have a roof facing south? Do you have trees that shade your house?
Get several professional solar installer to come out and give you a quote. They have tools that can calculate roof shading and facing to figure out whether it make sense for you.
We're in a high solar insolation region with an exposed, south facing roof. It's awesome. We've already bought our fuel for the next 25 years or so.

herkimer | 26. April 2013

I suggest you call Solar City and/or another Solar Systems Installer, and have them do a free energy analysis and site plan for you. Then you can evaluate with very specific information at hand. Get a couple of evaluation/plans to compare. Competition is a good thing, and if you like the plan of one, but the bid of the other is cheaper, that makes for good negotiation on final price, if you decide to go for it.

There are others on these forums who have had great success installing solar panels. (search through volkerize.com) Definitely worth getting the free evaluations and quotes.

Carefree | 26. April 2013

I have a 20kwh system on our roof and our electricity rates are pretty low (about $.10/kwh). I also live in Arizona and my power usage soars in the summer time when our AC units are running 24 hours a day when it's above 100F outside:-)

My system will pay for itself rather quickly (in fact my first solar installation will have paid for itself within 4 years - I got it when the incentives very very high).

You really need to figure this out for yourself - too many details are missing in your post to give you any meaningful answer (where do you live - what is your energy usage - is it a flat rate that you pay or does it depend on time of day etc. etc.)

akikiki | 26. April 2013

What every one has share up to now with you is right on. Another factor is 30% Federal Tax Credit.That helps, but does your state offer a local/state income tax credit too? For instance, Hawaii offers 35% up to cap credit of $5,000 Combine the state and Federal and you have a 65% tax credit. That means spend $ 1 and you get back 65 cents in tax credit. That makes it more affordable.

rdalcanto | 26. April 2013

Wow. Great replies! Thanks guys. I live in Salt Lake City, UT. I'm high on a hill with great South and West exposure. Lots of roof line and nothing to block it. Winters are sunny, and I might be able to generate some useful energy during the winter months if I can keep the snow off the panels. Sounds like I need to call Solar City and get an estimate. If they don't pay for themselves in 4-6 years, it isn't worth it to me. I will have to ask my wife what our electric bills were last summer in our old house. We moved into our new house a couple months ago. This house is bigger, with huge windows, and will probably be very expensive to keep cool May-September. I also need to make sure that the tax credit from the panels and the MS don't cancel each other out in some way.

ChrisPDX | 26. April 2013

I'm a big fan of solar (I have panels on my roof as well). However, it's not the cheapest way to lower your rates. In fact I would call it one of the last things you should do. First make sure you are using the lowest amount of power possible. Swap out all incandescent bulbs with CFL and LED bulbs. Hook up timers for exterior lights. Find out what's causing vampire draw and eliminate/reduce it (getting a Kill-a-watt meter is great for this). Take a closer look at your daily habits and see if they can be changed in anyway to reduce your consumption (turning lights off when you leave, adjusting the AC differently). Once you have your usage down as much as possible, then solar would be the next best step and be the most cost effective.

One other thing to be aware of, your roof needs to be in good condition. You don't want to install a solar system only to have to pull it down to replace the roof in the next few years. Pulling the panels and reinstalling them adds a lot of cost and can increase your ROI to a much later date.

shs | 26. April 2013

BTW, Solar panels don't have to be mounted on a roof. You may or may not have enough sq ft of roof facing in the right direction, either S or SW, to provide the necessary power. If you have the land to have your panels with a ground mount, you can face them in the right direction, easily clean and adjust their altitude, and more importantly, they will likely produce more juice on hot summer afternoons as roof mounted panels get too hot and their output goes down. Typically much better airflow on the backs of ground mounted panels and so they remain cooler.

amir | 26. April 2013

the $0.09 per KWH is very relevant and extremely cheap. If its a night rate that you use for charging the Tesla it may still make sense to do solar for other needs. If that is your rate regardless of TOD I cant see how solar can compete.

amir | 26. April 2013

the $0.09 per KWH is very relevant and extremely cheap. If its a night rate that you use for charging the Tesla it may still make sense to do solar for other needs. If that is your rate regardless of TOD I cant see how solar can compete.

Solar Scout | 26. April 2013

I have solar on my house in Orlando and have done quite a bit of research on the topic. I agree with the above comment about starting with energy conservation first. My bill before solar is about half that of others in similar houses. The local utility company will often do a survey for free.

To recharge about 50 miles you need about 14.2kWh of electricity (per Tesla's calculator).
In Florid you can count on 4 to 6 hours of sun per day on average. You have to derate the system from the "sticker value" on the panels to account for losses that occur. A typical factor is 77%. There is a great calculator and other resources here: (http://rredc.nrel.gov/solar/calculators/PVWATTS/derate.cgi)

So if you figure an annual average of 5 hours of Sun, with 77% derate, you would need about 3.7kW system to offset driving your Tesla 50 miles per day.

Also, you will want to "grid tie" your system rather than use a battery back up. This is basically using the utility company as your battery. Batteries only make sense in remote locations or with unreliable utilities. During the day your will spin your utility meter backwards and an night you will use the electricity from the grid.

The cost should be in the ballpark of $4 to $5/Watt installed. So, the system will run about $15k out of pocket. Keep in mind you will get 30% back as a tax credit--be sure to ask for it when you do your taxes. So you net cost will be about $10k.

Also check the www.dsireusa.org website for any local/state rebates.

If you are going to install solar and can afford the upfront costs, I recommend installing 5kW or more to offset up to 80% of your house electric. The return in savings on your electric bill is better than any savings account at a bank. (BTW, I pay about $.12/kWh from the grid)

Be sure to get a least 3 quotes. You will be surprised to find some companies charging over $6/Watt and getting away with it.

Good luck.

rdalcanto | 26. April 2013

Great post Solar Scout! Thank you for the numbers. Very helpful!

atsunset | 26. April 2013

Yes be sure to get (3) quotes!
The quotes varied by $10K for our 12KW system

dtesla | 26. April 2013

First: Solar Scout great post.

If you live in the North East you may also be eligible for SRECs (Solar renewable energy credits). SRECs can be sold for cash. See www.srectrade.com for details.

My electric bill separates the cost of generation ($0.06) from the cost of delivery ($0.065). Both are charged per KWh. So the real cost of my power is $0.125 per KWh.

When measured at the power meter my MS uses about .450 KWh per mile (Verses the .3 KWh per mile uses to move). The .450 KWh includes all battery standing loss, charging inefficiency, computer drain, etc.

JPPTM | 27. April 2013

FWIW, SolarCity is doing a 15kW solar install for me soon under a power purchase agreement. SolarCity was founded by a couple of direct relatives of Elon Musk and he is a principal in the company. SolarCity really understands the Tesla and knows the infrastructure you need to charge/feed your Model S. On the Tesla Motors web site under Charging, there is a direct link to SolarCity to help you in this regard. FWIW, they are heavily discounting the installation of my 2 NEMA 14-50 outlets as part of my solar package. They ask up front how many miles you plan to drive your Model S a day. Their planning calculators factor in your kW usage, and they spec a solar system to meet your needs. One stop shopping--very professional. Maybe not the cheapest, but I want a company who is likely to be around for a while and can support and service my system.

nwdiver93 | 27. April 2013

@rdalcanto

What state are you in? Here in New Mexico we get production credits so the cost of my electricity after ~5 years is $0. On average dropping ~$15000 on solar panels will power your MS ~100 miles/day. I spent $12k after the Tax Credit and get 50-60 kWh/day.

AreBeeAZ | 27. April 2013

Place a call to SolarCity. They can evaluate based on your location, rates, etc and provide a solution. If you sign up thy will also do an energy audit on your home.

Earl and Nagin ... | 27. April 2013

Since there seems to be a bias (that I'm ok with), I'll add a couple of counter philosophies to solar PV. Solar City offers a truly good deal leasing you your PV. They will also sell or allow you to buy your PV array. Other companies offer similar plans.
The other approach is to just go out and buy your array. Some states and power companies offer some very tempting rebates and deductions for doing so. One can finance them with home equity if desired. This way, you essentially fix the price of your electricity for the life of your PV array.
When purchasing PV, there are 2 basic philosophies:
1) - buy cheap, low efficiency panels
2) - buy expensive, high efficiency panels
The tradeoff trades labor costs (Installing more panels take more labor) with more expensive panels. I've seen the tradeoff go both ways so I'm not promoting either, just suggesting you don't categorically eliminate options.
Other considerations:
If you happen to have limited roof space, of course, you'll want to bias toward higher efficiency to get more energy. I'll put a shameless plug in for Sunpower as they have the highest efficiency. They got their start making the panels for the solar powered airplane that I worked on. They can recommend installers wherever you are.
Some Lower-efficiency (poly-crystal Si) is better at collecting energy that is not 100% incident to (directly hitting) the panels. This may make them cheaper if you don't have a good south (Northern Hemisphere) exposure.

rdalcanto | 29. April 2013

Well, I looked at my electric bill for the new house, and it is not good. We have not turned the air conditioners on yet, we try not to leave lights on, and we are still using 90kwh/day. We do have a pool pump that is running 24hrs/day, and a hot tub pump, 4 radon fans, 4 furnaces that have been running a lot until recently, etc. When the two giant a/c units start running, I wouldn't be surprised if our usage doubles. With our low Utah rates, our cost was $240 this month. I think $3,000/year or more is in the cards. Spending $20K on solar panels after rebates will be worth it if they can generate enough power. I will get some estimates and report back....

Kleist | 29. April 2013

@rdalcantro - so the MS doesn't even make a dent in your electrical usage. Holy cow with that usage I would pay north of $1000 every month in CA. Good news is the MS makes aware of the electrical usage.

Carefree | 29. April 2013

Just out of curiosity - why do you have your pool pump running 24/7? Pool pumps consume an awful lot of energy. We have a 5,000sqf home with pool and hot tub and we are using about 50kwhs/day - IF the AC is not running. My pool pump runs for 5 hours/day. Once the 4 AC units kick in our power consumption goes up to 150kwh/day - that's when it's 110F in AZ:-)

All our electricity needs are covered 100% by our PV system - that includes charging our P85.

rdalcanto | 29. April 2013

I am new to pools, but I'm pretty sure I had checked the pump specs, and to turn over the 17,000 gallons, it needs to run all day. However, I will check again. The hot tub only runs a few hours at a time, several times a day. Our house is really big, so there are a lot of lights and other appliances. But, the roof is big too. I just got an email from Solar City that they don't service my area. I will have to ask a few people we know who installed solar panels recently for their homes who they used and get estimates from them.

Xerogas | 29. April 2013

@rdalcanto

You can reduce the number of hours you run the pool pump during cooler months, because there's less chance of algae growing in cold water. I run 3-4 hours/day in the winter and 6-7 hours/day in the summer (mostly to get the most out of solar heating), and I have a 20,000 gallon pool with a high-efficiency pump and 2" plumbing pushing the water up 2 stories to the roof.

Get some advice from an expert -- you'll be able to save a *lot* of money if you can reduce the hours that pump is running. My pump is by far the biggest energy draw, even though I have a big house, too.

Carefree | 30. April 2013

Pump manufacturers and pool installers always exaggerate the hours a pump has to run. You really can't go by what they tell you. Do you have a pool guy looking after the pool? He/she would be best to consult. If you monitor the pool yourself just check the chems on a regular basis and keep reducing the hours the pool runs until you notice a significant imbalance in the chems.

rdalcanto | 30. April 2013

@Xerogas

The pool is indoors, so it is 87 degrees year round. I will try to cut back on the pump hours and see what happens.... Thanks guys!

dborn @nsw.au | 30. April 2013

Rdalcanto- here in Australia it is hot too and we have heaps of pools. If your pump is correctly sized for your pool, 6 hours in summer and 4 in winter should be plenty. As we run on time of use, and our CHEAPEST rate is 12 c ! In winter my 4 hours runs just after midnight on. It is off during the entire day. Regarding sanitizing the pool, mine is not on chlorine at all. I use an ozonator, and a silver copper electrode system. Never have a problem with my indoor pool.( 13 years now.) water is great too. Silver kills bacteria and copper kills algae. Ozone kills everything except humans!! The silver copper system simply plugs into the lid of the skimmer box.
Our expensive rate is 34c. Amongst the dearest electricity in the world!!

herkimer | 30. April 2013

@deborn perfect scenario for achieving best value for solar system.

Brian H | 30. April 2013

dborn;
Rates have gone to a 2-tier system here in British Columbia, Canada. Over the base (6.9) we get slammed with 10.4¢/kWh. Shocking! Slightly ..

rdalcanto | 01. Mai 2013

I called an installer who did a neighbor a couple years ago. Like people have said, it is about $4.50/W. Therefore a 10kW system would be $45,000. But, he would drop the cost to $40,000, or about $27,000 after tax credits. In Utah, I would average 60kW a day, or 1800kw/month (more in the summer, less in winter). At 10cents per kW, that would save $180/month, and would take 12 years to pay for itself. Doesn't seem worth it, but he is coming out tomorrow night to look at the roof.

rdalcanto | 01. Mai 2013

Interesting. I learned that Rocky Mountain Power in Utah charges differently in the summer. From May-September, after 1,000kW, the rate goes up to 13cent/kW. I need to find out how much the panels make during the summer months, instead of just having an average for the year. Since I will probably be at 3,000kW of usage or more during the summer, the higher summer rates could make it more financially rewarding than I previously thought if the panels put out more juice.

Brian H | 01. Mai 2013

Yep, there's more sunlight in summer. It's a rule.

shs | 01. Mai 2013

Unless you are in the Southern Hemisphere, then it is all upside down.

Brian H | 01. Mai 2013

Summer starts in September, there. It's so hot in December, they celebrate Xmas with Santa Clausless.

rdalcanto | 02. Mai 2013

Our friend Jennifer gave us her actually numbers for her 6.5kW system. Using her numbers, I calculated what I should expect from a 10kW system. Savings are based on 10cents/kw October-April, and 13cents/kw May-September. Does this seem right to people?

6.5kW 10kW
Jennifer Jupiter
kw kw Money Saved
Jan 261 400 40
Feb 417 638 63.8
Mar 643 983 98.3
April 832 1272 127.2
May 1113 1702 221.3
June 1196 1829 237.8
July 1212 1854 241.02
Aug 1052 1609 209.2
Sept 1039 1589 206.6
Oct 726 1110 111
Nov 420 642 64.2
Dec 409 625 62.5
Total 9320kw 14253kw $1682.92

Monthly
Average 776.6kw 1187kw $140
Daily 25.9kw 40kw/day

rdalcanto | 02. Mai 2013

crap, it didn't save my nice formatting....

rdalcanto | 02. Mai 2013

Rows are as follows, using the Jan row as an example.
Jan 261kw for Jennifers 6.5kW system, 400Kw projected for 10kw system, $40 saved.

Solar Scout | 02. Mai 2013

@rdalcanto:
That data seems very consistent with my actual data.
You can check out hundreds of systems (including mine) online at the Enphase website:
https://enlighten.enphaseenergy.com/public_systems

It will show the actual production data since each system was installed.

@Brian H
Also, while the days are longer in the Summer (so the sun is up for more hours), the actual total insolation (sun that hits the earth) or hours of full sun is often less in the Summer due to the amount of clouds. This is very evident in Orlando where is rains almost ever afternoon (when the Sun is near its optimal height/intensity).
You can get data on the usable hours of sun per day here:
http://www.gaisma.com/en/

RNB | 02. Mai 2013

We built our system a few years ago at around $7 per KW, 65% of it taken off state or federal taxes. We buy electric around 15 cents per khw but have a 5 year contract that pays us 20 cents a kwh. We built large enough for house use and put in the hardware for expansion for ecar in future.

After the system is paid for we essentially have free electric for life, perhaps free car fuel also!

Blog of the buildout here: http://encsolar.blogspot.com/

Brian H | 02. Mai 2013

rdalcanto;
use the <pre> tag to save formatting. Reduces font size, though.

CraigW | 02. Mai 2013

I live in So Cal and have a 18,000 gal pool. I keep the pool pump on 2.5 hrs in the winter and 4 hrs in the summer. The key is the pool pump. My brother-in-law is in the pool business and guided me on the pump. Since I changed pumps there have been improvements with variable speed motors and other developments. Try to find someone who knows pump motors and you may be able to cut a lot of that electricity usage, even on a large house.

Clearly pool pumps are the biggest users of electricity, with A/C coming in second. I keep daily records of solar energy produced by my system and my usage. My Model S averages about 12 kWh/day and I am putting an average of 40 mi/day on the car.

djm12 | 05. Mai 2013

It's impossible to answer this question without a copy of your electric bill and a more complete understating of your electricity usage patterns. The goal of most PV owners is to get sufficient annual production to lower their electricity consumption to the lowest tier, a "bang-for-the-buck" solution. On the other hand, with the price for individual solar panels so low, the approach I took was buy a large enough system to meet 100% of my electricity consumption today. (You never know, maybe someday I'll want heated floors or an electric water heater)

Since electricity rates will increase - they are certainly never going to fall - just go for it rather than endlessly wrangling over the decision. Solar systems are cost effective and will guarantee somewhere around $0.07-0.09/kWhr for the next 20 years. Your electricity company will absolutely be more expensive over this period. It's unwise in the long run not to get solar if you have a good roof with no shade. It adds close to 100% of the investment to the value of your home. And if you are getting solar - go for the max - less regrets.

kristahiles111 | 18. Februar 2014

Solar Panels are going to help always. The electricity bills are never going to be same. But the solar panel is just one time investment. I have one at my home too. You may get it from Sterling if you are planning to buy. There is also not much maintenance cost.
http://www.sterling-energy.com/

EmperorTytus | 18. Februar 2014

I got my panels from Solar City. The system was sized for my current energy usage. Anyone know if they'll come out and add more/write a new contract if I want to purchase a Tesla? Any one asked Solar City?

paumont | 28. Januar 2015

I have been looking around this forum but I not seen it (yet), feel free to redirect my post on another thread if needed...

Why not mounting some solar panels ON a Tesla car itself as well? I know this might not be enough power to keep it charged while driving, but why not trying to catch some extra trickle charge when the car is outside, driving or not...?

Just an idea, again probably not the first time you hear that, sorry if it's a repeat (I'm new here).

Brian H | 28. Januar 2015

The whole roof and hood would barely get you 2 or 3 miles a day, in the tropics, sitting in the sun. At considerable expense.

Sleepydoc1 | 28. Januar 2015

Definitely check around. Solar City offered me a larger setup with less generation, due to less desirable placement, than the local #1 competitor who has been doing solar for 30 years. Their final price at 30 years worked out to $0.127/kWh over 30 years, while the local guy worked out to $0.081/kWh over 25 years. I ran each system through our electric company's solar calculator and numbers were similar, so no fudging the numbers. With time of use charges coming soon, we will have $0.10 for most of the time with peak summer use of $0.24/kWh. Hard to justify paying Solar City investors a $0.02/kWh premium for non-peak usage most of the year.

Sacramento