Forums

Nav on EAP is the bomb

Nav on EAP is the bomb

Got on 280 near Palo Alto, CA and voice commanded: Navigate to San Francisco Ferry Building (not fairy building :-) and not that there would be anything wrong with going to a fairy building :o). 280 to 380 to 101 to 280 to exit. All seamless with some slow down and speed up for lane changing and our first try with mad max mode. We have owned the car since Aug 2018 and it is still a fun adventure to just go out and play with what it can do.

I was super impressed with how it handled this idiot biker:

https://youtu.be/6ANMi5woMOI

82bert | 24. April 2019

I use it for commute and around the city using various highways/interstates. Has been amazing and continues to improve and perform in new ways. I’m gaining more trust in it while also still watching it closely. Love it.

M3forMe | 24. April 2019

+100.
I used it this weekend to go from Sacto to Monterey via Milpitas and back. It's getting better everyday. After watching the webcast the other day, I understand now this is a game changer. Neural Net is impressive.

SteveWin1 | 24. April 2019

Its cool that it aborted the lane change for the biker, but it really shouldn't have changed lanes in the first place with that bike overtaking you. Looks like it scarred him/her.

Magic 8 Ball | 24. April 2019

@Steve The biker was being an idiot. Here is forward cam footage of how he weaved in and out of traffic after he went by. The Nav on system put on the turn signal when he was behind us and you can see him jump to the other lane and hesitate. He decided to go for it after hesitating (looks to me he saw the signal as was impatient for our lane change), bad move on his part.

https://youtu.be/Dpta4PjkbRM

eplaskett | 24. April 2019

Yup, it bombs on me every day. :)

Much of its usefulness other lack thereof is likely tied to the quality of the map data in the area in question. I have little doubt that the SF Bay Area has very good map data in comparison to most places, given not only the sheer volume of Tesla vehicles there but also the number of Tesla-driving Tesla employees who can probably funnel info about map errors to the right channels more easily than the rest of us.

In metro Atlanta, alas, it's still not very useful, and most of the problems seem to be more navigation related than autopilot related; the actual driving mechanics are pretty good, as they are on EAP. It does execute lane changes quite well and I am pleased about that, but it suggests them at the wrong times (I am someone who is always getting over early and NOA suggests changes way too early even for me). When I politely decline a lane change by tapping the screen, it suggests it again in under 2 seconds. I haven't bothered turning on lane change without confirmation as I know that it would then actually do lane changes that I don't want.

The system also doesn't understand toll roads and HOV lanes in our area and never incorporates them properly in its navigation calculations. It also seems to get confused about speed limits on the highway as there are places with 65 mph speed limits where the maximum EAP speed suddenly drops to 40 mph for a few hundred yards - not a long stretch but enough to cause the car to suddenly slow down for no good reason.

I have tried reporting map errors to Tesla via multiple channels (bug report, emails to support) and have never gotten a response or seen improvements in the maps. Maybe someday - I do hold out hope for that. I absolutely love the car and the concept of the NOA system but in our area (a top 10 metro) it's still not working as advertised.

SteveWin1 | 24. April 2019

yep, that guy definitely has a death wish.

Magic 8 Ball | 24. April 2019

@eplaskett I have no doubt you are correct in that the SF bay area is a core for data acquisition and it would stand to reason they would address corner and edge cases that happen around here first. In a little less than a year we went from not having the feature at all to where I have gained enough confidence in it to see vision much more clearly.

It will happen for everyone.

Rt002k | 24. April 2019

I just wish it would have better decision making with respect to when to speed up to overtake before changing lanes or slowing down to drop in behind on a lane change. Or at least make a decision. It seems to lack the situational awareness of making a lane change decision not only based on distance to the exit but also the location of cars. For example, it will have the "upcoming lane change" notation up, with a wide open space in the lane behind some steady traffic. It keeps that notation up while another car slowly creeps up to close the open gap, and then the signal light goes on when that car is at the back bumper. To make it worse, my 3 will just sit there - it won't slow down to get behind that person, it will just sit there with the blinker on and not do anything.

Similar thing when moving faster than the desired lane of travel, coming up on a car, get halfway past that car, blinker on, and instead of continuing on to overtake and pass it matches speed with the car and doesn't do anything.

eplaskett | 24. April 2019

@M8B

Yes, I just wish they'd make it easier for use to report map errors. Set up a website that has a map where we can click to submit errors instead of trying to explain then in a long e-mail that probably doesn't end up getting read.

They should also tie the neural net in to navigation instructions and calculations. When I decline lane changes out of the HOV lane multiple times at the same points on my route every single day, the system (at the mother ship if not on the car itself) should realize, "Hmm, obviously this isn't not the correct instruction," and if the system can't figure out exactly why, it should flag it for a human to review. If I take the toll lane, against the system's instructions, every day, and arrive at my destination well before the system had predicted on its original route, it should be able to figure out that I know something it doesn't and should figure out what that is, or, again, flag it for a human to review. In other words, if one of the system's key learning inputs is Autopilot disengagements, they ought to be able to figure out a way for it to learn from repeated navigation overrides.

I hope that they do get there, and actually think that they will. But when I have been doing the exact same overrides every weekday since NOA was introduced and have gotten so tired of doing so that I now don't even bother to turn on NOA much of the time, I do wonder. I would sure rather see progress in this area than on Atari games and fart apps, the fun I had pranking my wife with the latter notwithstanding.

dmastro | 24. April 2019

I have mixed opinions on NoAP. It's obviously a sophisticated piece of software, but it has room for a lot of improvement, which I expect will happen over time.

It changes lanes far too often for my liking... while I can see traffic patterns up ahead and know I should stay in a certain lane, it will change a lane and then 15 seconds later change back.

Rather than wait to pass a slower car and then change lanes into what would be a clear lane, it will move behind the slower car because a turn is coming up in a mile or two.

It also doesn't do a great job of blending speed while executing lane changes, and often attempts to make a lane change when a car is coming up quickly in the lane.

The autopilot decisions have put me in a few dangerous situations, and antagonized drivers around me. Maybe the actions are technically safe, but they don't mimic typical human driving characteristics, which leads to unexpected reactions from the other drivers.

For now, I'm really only using auto-lane-change when there isn't much traffic. Otherwise, I use EAP with the lane-keeping feature.

Rt002k | 24. April 2019

FWIW, typical human driving characteristics do result in thousands of deaths per year :)

ssphadnis | 24. April 2019

Man, the first time I used it on a busy LA freeway, I had my blinker on for more than 5 mins and the car could not lane change since other folks kept on rushing through. I looked like a noob and had to turn NoAP off, very embarrassing to say the least. Hopefully it will improve.

Firaz.ashraf | 24. April 2019

Comon folks, look at AP/EAP over time. Just over the past year the improvements are astonishing.
I still cant turn on NoAP with autolane change because of NYC traffic but still use it while i can and i even noticed on some of the highways where the M3 was just hitting the drainage bumps one day, it made an active effort to avoid them another. Just amazing how improvements keep getting pushed actively. My main complaints right now are the screen staying black on reverse and also i noticed Autopark has become much less reliable in detecting opportunities.

Magic 8 Ball | 24. April 2019

SF traffic can be pretty chaotic at times. We did a tourist walk along the wharf, just to get out on a nice spring day, and we say three different cars with frames on top and thing-a-ma-bobs mounted all over. These data acquisition cars can be seen frequently in the bay area (from several different outfits) and I was encouraged to see the concentration of them in busy fisherman's wharf (jaywalkers and mixed up tourists everywhere).

It is real and we are at the beginning.

Kary993 | 24. April 2019

I do really enjoy AP and navigation with AP automatic turn signals. There are times that it has trouble though. Example, yesterday going south on the 163 near the 8 freeway there are K rails next to fast lane that are almost or are covering up the lane lines. I of course was in AP and I witnessed the car begin the hunt in the lane not sure where it actually should be. That hunt started moving back and forth toward the K rail. rather uncomfortably for my taste so I took over until I past the construction area and then reengaged AP. I am hoping the HW3/AI/Data will fix that since they talked on Monday a lot about the car understanding drivable space. Right now it seems it is really looking for those lines primarily.

hokiegir1 | 24. April 2019

I'm with @eplaskett -- I have not been as impressed with the current rollout as I was previously here in ATL. Part of that is that we needed an alignment again (FYI -- when you do need one, the car tends to "fight" itself when using autosteer -- this is more noticeable than a tracking to one side or the other when you let go of the wheel). Hubby just got that done today, so I'll be interested to try it again in the next few days, but overall, I don't think it handles the interchanges around here well, where you can have 2 lanes as on-ramps and then the next 2 are exit only less than a mile later -- so the entering cars need to get over very quickly, etc. I also turned off HOV lanes in the settings, because it wanted me to get all the way to the left to exit in 3 miles -- when I would have had to come all the way back over. It's fine to allow their use, but evaluate when it's worth the "effort" to do. And the suggested speed-based changes were also driving me nuts, so I turned those off as well, and just do those manually. I was more impressed with the last iteration that needed confirmation.

dmastro | 24. April 2019

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Rt002k | April 24, 2019
FWIW, typical human driving characteristics do result in thousands of deaths per year :)
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Considering the billions of people who drive each year, I submit that it is atypical human driving characteristics that result in thousands of deaths each year.

I know you understand what I was expressing and you're answering tongue in cheek, but the bottom line is that right now NoAP doesn't integrate with other traffic as well as I do. Maybe it will keep me from getting in an accident, but it seems more likely to cause someone driving near me to get in one.

I'm sure the system would be better if all cars were controlled autonomously, and I'm also sure the AI will continue to improve to integrate with human drivers. But right now it doesn't inspire confidence when I'm using it.

eplaskett | 24. April 2019

@hokiegir1

That's funny about your experience with your car's treatment of the HOV lanes... My car behaves in the opposite manner. I drive in the HOV lane on I-75 every day from the Cobb Cloverleaf to where I-85 splits off from I-75, near the airport. I usually start moving over to the right just after the Grady Curve, which is still about 5-6 miles early, because I do like to be in the proper lane well in advance. The Tesla navigation, however, wants me to start moving over before West Paces Ferry - about 14 miles before my actual exit and 8 or 9 miles before even I would normally start moving over.

thedrisin | 24. April 2019

I have yet to use NoAP successfully on any trip without having to intervene. Most recently, I was in the right lane of a 2 lane on-ramp and the car almost turned into the adjacent vehicle in the left lane. Obviously, I had to quickly abort.

hokiegir1 | 24. April 2019

@eplaskett - Do you have HOV Lanes turned on in your Nav settings (not NoAP settings, but the gear icon on the directions)? I was going north on 75 from about Northside to West Paces (during rush hour, no less!), and it tried to get me to move all the way over. As soon as I realized what it was doing, I cancelled the move.

eplaskett | 24. April 2019

@hokiegir1

Oh yes, I have checked that setting a dozen times. HOV lanes are indeed enabled.

I neglected to mention even stranger behavior: after I ignore the instruction to leave the HOV lane, less than a mile later, the car asks me to accept a lane change to the left - but the only thing to the left is the shoulder. Maybe it's trying to put me back in the HOV lane, but I never left it!

roaddevil | 24. April 2019

Mine alerts me to left lane even I am already on HOV lane and the left is shoulder or concrete divider when I enter a freeway. If I move to right lane about 1 mile before an exit, it wants me to change to the left lane, it stops about 3/4 mile before an exit.

Patrick | 24. April 2019

For the most part we love NoA and use it all the time. After six months of Model 3 ownership, however, I'm seeing the proverbial 2-3 steps forward and 1-2 steps back with OTA updates.

For example, we just completed more testing during a 600 mile road trip from FL to NC (running Release 8.5) and observed the following new behaviors vs. the last 2018 release:

- As usual, the car drove itself using NoA during most of the Interstate routes (roughly 80% of the trip). Overall performance was very good. 1-2 steps forward from the last release.

- Most lane change behavior was substantially improved vs. the previous release, especially relative to the timing and frequency of lane change suggestions. The last release was constantly making suggestions at bad times, when not needed, often waiting too long to prep for exits, along with other issues. Running 8.5 the car was happy as a clam just cruising along at 5-10 mph over the speed limit, staying mostly in the center lane and adjusting speed nicely to flow with traffic and making passing suggestions only when things slowed down quite a bit (5-10 mph). 2 steps forward.

- Unlike the last release, the car would not change lanes every time we accepted a NoA suggestion. On numerous occasions, even with no approaching traffic in the clear lane, the car would just stay in the current lane with the turn signal on after applying the required EAP nag response. 1 step back.

- Worse, on quite a few occasions NoA would make lane change suggestions at inappropriate times when traffic was quickly approaching us in the passing lane and it was clearly unsafe to pass. Why even suggest a lane change when approaching traffic won't allow it, and why activate a turn signal at bad times which will likely annoy or concern approaching drivers? 1 step back.

- Overall EAP smoothness was generally as good or better than the last release. Another step forward.

The biggest issue we've seen so far with 8.5 NoA is sometimes radically different behavior when approaching certain familiar merge points, exits, less-than-perfect lane markings, and other situations where the car's behavior on the previous release was smooth and reliable. Examples include abrupt slowdowns for no reason when approaching merges and/or after changing lanes, unexpected red-hand alarms and notices to take over, and sudden/partial darting side to side. It's almost like something changed in the core logic to make the car more nervous and require MORE involvement from the driver vs. less. Not good, but I'm confident that a future release will address these issues.

Also tried all the combinations of 8.5 NoA lane-change notifications and decided to go with "None". Using this setting still provides the blue message and the turn signal, which together provide plenty of notification for each suggestion, and still require driver confirmation via a standard EAP nag response.

jjgunn | 24. April 2019

I had something really weird happen to me today.

Crossing San Mateo bridge - I was in NoAP, left lane & I see bike coming up on my passenger side. I grab wheel to disengage auto-steer (TACC still enabled) & move toward solid yellow line/shoulder to allow bike to pass. I do this a lot.

Bike passes me - gives the happy peace sign as a thank you but at the same time I received a "take over immediately" alert & the car tried to get back INTO the lane between the lane markers. I held the wheel tight as it would've veered too close to the bike I was allowing to pass.

That's the weirdest thing I ever encountered with NoAP - only TACC was enabled - first time ever.

Damnit, I didn't think to save the video as it happened so fast - real strange. (Firmware 2019.8.5)

I will remember to get the video next time any weirdness happens

Magic 8 Ball | 24. April 2019

@jjgunn If car was steering the AP was not disengaged.

jjgunn | 24. April 2019

I was steering - left wheel over the solid yellow to allow the bike to pass. Damnit - wish I would've saved the video. Next time (if it happens again) I will.

Magic 8 Ball | 24. April 2019

"the car tried to get back........."

You were not steering you were fighting AP if the above statement is accurate.

Rt002k | 24. April 2019

Are you sure the alert wasn't the blind spot detector chime?

I had a weird one yesterday where I had Autosteer engaged, got the audible alert that I typically associate with "take over now" as it was going around a curve and a lane was merging and then a few seconds later noticed that Autosteer was still engaged. I honestly couldn't tell you if I recall any resistance on the wheel because the car was already centered in the lane so there was no need to adjust steering.

eplaskett | 24. April 2019

8 incidents of phantom breaking on my 25 mile highway commute this evening. All caused by shadows on the road. 8.5 has really been a huge step backward in that regard; I agree with Patrick that lane changes are much better but the car otherwise seems more nervous and jumpy, which is not a good thing at all. I am used to getting some phantom braking for the first few days of any new release, but I have been on 8.5 for over three weeks and it hasn't gotten any better.

howard | 24. April 2019

M8B Glad to hear it is working well for you. I am waiting for HW3 and better roll out in the Denver metro area. It is just not there yet here for me.

Magic 8 Ball | 24. April 2019

@howard When we bought the car it had now where near the capability it has now. I am happy with the progress and evidence of full commitment to making this happen. I have no misconceptions about being a beta user of this technology.

TexasBob | 24. April 2019

I am on record as agreeing with OP. I love NoAP and use it all the time. But I am seriously wondering about the dramatically different experiences of @howard and @eplaskett and others. Is it mainly a difference in driving environments? Are we seeing significant differences in individual vehicle behaviors? Is it just an expectation/tolerance issue? I have not had a phantom braking incident for nearly a year, for example. Hmm... someone needs to arrange a meet-up and compare driving experiences in different vehicles.

eplaskett | 24. April 2019

@TexasBob

Yes, it is really puzzling. While my car was on 48.12.1, we did a week-long "triangular" road trip to see family in Florida, over Christmas, with highway legs of 400 miles, 250 miles and 500 miles. I don't think we experienced a single phantom braking issue the entire time. Now I have to actually expect them every 5 minutes or so, and sometimes more if I am driving through a lot of shadows.

I may contact Tesla service to see what they can do. The car came with some smears on the inside of the windshield, directly in front of the cameras; I asked service if this needed to be addressed before our Christmas road trip but they couldn't squeeze me in and in any event it didn't appear to impact things negatively on our road trip, so I have left well enough alone. Dashcam footage also appears quite clear. But maybe it's an issue after all. I am not far from the service center, so maybe I will get it checked out and cleaned and see if that helps matters.

Kary993 | 24. April 2019

I am on 8.5 also but never really see phantom braking. If I am not in navigate with AP automatic lane change mode, and just in AP doing my own lane changes, I tend to understand generally when it is best to change lanes to avoid slowing down cars I am changing into a lane in front of them. But if AP does itself, it does a pretty good job as long as Mad Max is enabled. I am looking forward the Los Angeles mode referred to by EM on Monday. That will be useful!

Rt002k | 24. April 2019

Only mysterious braking I experience is it being locked on the car in the lane next to me. The last shadow phantom brake event I had was day 2 of ownership in July.

jjgunn | 24. April 2019

Magic 8 Ball | April 24, 2019
"the car tried to get back........."

You were not steering you were fighting AP if the above statement is accurate.
---------------
I jerked out of AP - I've done this hundreds of times for bikes. Spoke about it in earlier posts with Bighorn. Positioned the car on the yellow line....as the bike passed me, the car gave the familiar "take over" & attempted to center on the lane until I stopped it.

After almost a year of using it - I do know the difference between AP & just TACC. As I said earlier....if it happens again I'll prove it with video. You can't even enable AP if you're straddling the left yellow stripe.

Magic 8 Ball | 24. April 2019

Looking forward to the video. I have never heard of 'jerking out of AP' and have AP re engage on its own after the maneuver.

roaddevil | 24. April 2019

I reported a few weeks back that my car gave me a loud warning when a bike passed me while I moved to left the edge of the HOV lane. I disabled the Auto Steer at that time and TRACC was on. Although I did not see the details of the warning message, the circumstance was about the same as @jjgunn described.

At that time, I thought either the bike was too close to my car or my car was too close to the center divider and it triggered the collision warning.

jjgunn | 24. April 2019

Hmmm..... interesting. I'm going to try & duplicate it. I won't miss downloading the video the next time.

Magic 8 Ball | 24. April 2019

A dashcam video will not confirm what happened in the cabin.

Be safe.

TAC | 24. April 2019

And to just think how amazing advanced summon and FSD with zero input from us with no steering wheel check in nags!

-TheJohn- | 24. April 2019

I am totally blown away by how fast Navigate With Autopilot has gotten smarter. The initial hesitancy evinced by it has rapidly been taken over by a merciless correct neural net who -KNOWS- where I want to go.

Some real world criticism is that it is infallibly correct in doing so but it slows down waaay later for off ramps than I would do and I consider myself to be parsimonious in my braking.

dgstan | 24. April 2019

I had a similar incident this evening. I had AP on while going down a straight 40 MPH road. Somehow, the car couldn't figure out the lane as we went through a small intersection. It jerked the wheel out of my hand to veer right - and straight into the opposite curb. I pulled it back, got all the beeps, etc. as AP was cancelled. Immediately, It yanked the wheel out of my hand again and headed back toward the curb.

I thought I was imagining things until I read the experiences detailed above. I'm still on my trial, so I'm super-careful when using it, so I'm not worried about crashing. But, I'll tell you one thing: I certainly would never pay money for this.

BTW - This was in Saratoga, CA.

syclone | 25. April 2019

Seems to me that Elon has discovered a great way to save money and engineering time in software development. Just turn the users in Guinea Pig/beta testers. What's a few lives when you are interested in the "greater good"
I love my car, but give me a break!

syclone | 25. April 2019

Second sentence "in" should be "into".

82bert | 25. April 2019

@johnmcniece. 100% my observations as well the first few days I had a number of hesitations and phantom braking. Last week, not a single one. If continues to improve at this rate with HW 2.5, I can only imagine what it will eventually be capable of with FSD computer. Very excited.

I commute across multiple interstates/highways in my city center.

eplaskett | 25. April 2019

@johnmcniece

Very interesting; thanks for the data point. May I ask where you're located? I find myself wondering more and more if the effectiveness of NOA depends on your location and accuracy of the maps in your area. I have seen essentially no change in NOA behavior since it was rolled out ~6-7 months ago, but I have also noticed that map errors that I have submitted to Tesla also have not been addressed in that period.

@82bert

How was the weather in your neck of the woods last week, when EAP worked well for you? Mine seems to have the most difficulty when the sun is very bright and fairly close to the horizon, with lots of shadows on the road. (Unfortunately, at this time of year, my commute has those exact conditions in both directions on most good weather days.) This morning, it was rather overcast and EAP behaved much better, with little to no phantom braking.

82bert | 25. April 2019

Had a little of both. I have a very variably times commute compared to typical people, so I don’t recall as much of the shadows last week. I’ll keep an eye on those conditions, because I’ve definitely heard similar from others.

I had sun, partly cloudy and some light rain as well as night.

eplaskett | 25. April 2019

@82bert

It was more overcast for us today, and I had zero phantom braking over the course of about 50 miles of highway driving. Very pleased. Just wish the performance in the sun was as good. Well, maybe it'll get there.

82bert | 25. April 2019

Keep at it. As you know, the more you use it, the better you realize its current inadequacies and can intervene as necessary. Plus, you get to see improvements as they come.

Pages