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Less than 10k miles on car and seems battery has 7% degradation

Less than 10k miles on car and seems battery has 7% degradation

Duel Motor/Long Range

When I charge to 90% my screen says I have 261 miles. Since the car should have 310 miles and I am at 90% I should have about 280 miles to drive.
It looks to me like there is already about a 7% degradation in the battery after only a few thousand miles.

Please help me understand why the car is not telling me 280 miles for a 90% charge.
I have never charged to 100% and only used supercharger about 5 times.

Thanks, Ed

andy.connor.e | 24. Juli 2019

your motors are having a duel, and its using more battery.

TeslaTap.com | 24. Juli 2019

The range number is an estimate that drifts down over time (but does not indicate battery degradation). The only way to check is to do a range calibration. Drain the battery down below 20%, then charge to 100%, and check the range within an hour or two. Do this, and see how close the range is to 310. Note that with Sentry mode, you're going to lose about a mile of range per hour, so turn off Sentry mode during this calibration.

Hostestly, not worth the bother. Many have the same concern and then do a range calibration and all is good.

RedShift | 24. Juli 2019

I’m not sure if this applies to you, but there is a thing about battery balancing from time to time. It involves you charging to 100% a few times and then drive around. You want to do that to let the software ‘learn’ about the battery cells’ capacity as its mostly a guess what the actual range is, all the time. You might find that the mas range starts to ‘improve’. Not really, the range was always there, it’s the software adapting.

What’s the downside? Well, charging to 100% too often will result in slight degradation.

I used to do this with my 6.5 year old S when it was new. I stopped worrying about it after 2 years. Now, it looks like the software has become very wise with age, and my S charges to 200 miles nowadays. That’s around 3% range loss from 208 max when new. Hats off, to Tesla!

I also have a 3 since 2018 Sept. I have never tried to balance the battery on it. Most recently the max charge on this LR RWD was 318 miles, and not 325 it showed a couple of months back. I don’t worry where those 7 miles went. I know they are most likely there in my battery. ;-)

escott | 24. Juli 2019

Thanks for the replies, battery balancing can be done at at any percentage level, normally I balance charge my lipos although it takes a bit longer, so maybe the cars do only calibrate and balance @ 100%. I think 20 miles is pretty significant drop, but if its just calibration then that would surely explain it. Normally I only lave it on percentage, but switched back to miles get an estimate on a long drive and noticed the 20 mile loss in the morning. Thanks for the replies.

blue adept | 24. Juli 2019

It's more about modulating the charge current with your desired charge level coupled with your driving requirements (range) and compensating for localized environmental variables, if you want to get technical about it.

Also, despite what (sad as it is to say) @TeslaTap.com & @RedShift (is member content degradation a plausible phenomena?) might suggest, it is actually never really advisable to charge to 100%.

Here's an article with a couple videos (including a bit of content from Elon himself) to provide you with a fairly comprehensive bit of insight on the matter:

https://acworks.com/blogs/ac-works-connector/tesla-charging-limits-how-t...

https://youtu.be/pxP0Cu00sZs

Hope this helps, good luck and, for Nikola Tesla's sake, this isn't the 90's...Learn how to EV already people, sheesh!

;-)

RedShift | 24. Juli 2019

@blueadept

Tesloop reported 6% degradation over 194000 miles charging between 95% to100%.

https://www.tesloop.com/blog/2018/7/16/tesloops-tesla-model-s-surpasses-...

I have experienced less than 3% on my S60 charging to 100% around 10-15 times a year for the last 6.5 years.

Clearly, charging to 100% isn’t as bad as all that.

escott | 24. Juli 2019

Please remember my car is only just over 9k miles and a few months old, 7% after 100k miles would not be an issue

RedShift | 24. Juli 2019

I am not saying charge to 100% regularly, though the Tesloop example hints that even that is not the big problem it’s being made out to be.

People rarely need access to 100% in normal usage. I charge most of the time to 80%.

blue adept | 25. Juli 2019

@RedShift

Who knows? Perhaps theirs is the exception to the rule?!

Or is to do with the mileage they put on the car between charges, in conjunction with prevailing environmental conditions in their region, contributing to the overall health of the battery inasmuch as they were able to fully cycle it over and over again over the course of its lifetime, who knows?!

I can only provide the advice of a couple owners utilizing their Tesla's under typical circumstances of the average day-to-day commuter, several battery engineers and electronic's professors, along with the car's designer and manufacturer himself, Elon Musk, but what the hell do they know, right?!

Don't shoot the messenger.

RedShift | 25. Juli 2019

@blueadept

No one is shooting the messenger.

You just don’t have all the experience or information. You are quick to condescension though.

escott | 25. Juli 2019

This was the response, so I guess the range is dynamically calculated over time depending on independent driving habits.

---- Tesla Reply
What may be perceived as a decrease in range or degradation of the battery can be attributed to normal functions of the car.

There are many factors involved in the actual range of your Tesla:

Personal driving habits have the greatest impact on the range of your vehicle​
Slow down, and avoid frequent and rapid acceleration
Better utilize, and/or adjust the sensitivity for Regenerative Braking (Standard is recommended)
Keep tires at the recommended inflation pressure
Lighten cargo load by removing unnecessary items
Fully raise all windows
Limit the use of resources such as heating and air conditioning. Using seat heaters to keep warm is more efficient than heating the cabin.
Enable Range Mode
​Controls > Driving > Range Mode
Environmental Factors
Exposure to rapid temperature changes, or long exposure to extreme heat, or cold can effect the expected range.
This effect is not permanent, and does not change the health and degradation of the battery over time.
More Range Tips can be found in the "Getting Maximum Range" section of the Owner's Manual

--- me
3:16 PM
So your sayin that its a calculated range and improved driving habits would make it go up?

-- Tesla Reply
3:17 PM
That is correct.

escott | 25. Juli 2019

This was the response, so I guess the range is dynamically calculated over time depending on independent driving habits.

---- Tesla Reply
What may be perceived as a decrease in range or degradation of the battery can be attributed to normal functions of the car.

There are many factors involved in the actual range of your Tesla:

Personal driving habits have the greatest impact on the range of your vehicle​
Slow down, and avoid frequent and rapid acceleration
Better utilize, and/or adjust the sensitivity for Regenerative Braking (Standard is recommended)
Keep tires at the recommended inflation pressure
Lighten cargo load by removing unnecessary items
Fully raise all windows
Limit the use of resources such as heating and air conditioning. Using seat heaters to keep warm is more efficient than heating the cabin.
Enable Range Mode
​Controls > Driving > Range Mode
Environmental Factors
Exposure to rapid temperature changes, or long exposure to extreme heat, or cold can effect the expected range.
This effect is not permanent, and does not change the health and degradation of the battery over time.
More Range Tips can be found in the "Getting Maximum Range" section of the Owner's Manual

--- me
3:16 PM
So your sayin that its a calculated range and improved driving habits would make it go up?

-- Tesla Reply
3:17 PM
That is correct.

escott | 25. Juli 2019

(Sorry for the double post, site was slow and clicked again)

RedShift | 25. Juli 2019

That explains why the range on my 6.5 year old S60 has stayed close to 200 nowadays.

SCCRENDO | 25. Juli 2019

If that loss is real it would be excessive. If you do not use the whole range the calibration goes off but it should only be a few miles. I would charge to 100 % before leaving and let it run down as low are prepared to risk but I would try get at least below 10%. Then repeat this twice more and check the recovery. If it does not return to 276-282 after this take it in so they can check your battery. I have an 85S 160,000 miles April 2013. Original full charge was meant to be 265 miles although I never say above 252. At 109,000 miles when it had been at 245 miles it suddenly dropped to 225. Tesla sent my battery to Fremont f for remanufacture. They put in a loaner battery. When they reinstalled my battery a year later it had 235 miles. It is now at 225-230. It is fine but I try not to use it on long trips except skiing at mammoth with heavy snowfall. We have to charge more frequently on the way and watch our speed. I have a Model 3 LR with 39000 miles since Jan last year. Battery was 310 miles and is now 308. We pretty much use this for long distance travel. Hop this helps

escott | 25. Juli 2019

Enable Range Mode
​Controls > Driving > Range Mode

I checked and I don't have that in a Model 3

SCCRENDO | 25. Juli 2019

The response from Tesla was BS. The tech just posted the standard response on how to improve your driving distance and has nothing to do with battery health

escott | 25. Juli 2019

@SCCRENDO, thanks will try, prob over the weekend.

Thing is

> Slow down, and avoid frequent and rapid acceleration
I don't drive fast, 5mph over and 90% time on FSD

> Regenerative Braking (Standard is recommended)
I am standard

> Keep tires at the recommended inflation pressure
They are

> Lighten cargo load by removing unnecessary items
Nothing in boots

> Fully raise all windows
They are

> Limit the use of resources such as heating and air conditioning.
Florida Heat, well I use AC all the time

escott | 25. Juli 2019

@SCCRENDO

> If that loss is real it would be excessive. I

Your loss comes out to be
245 miles it suddenly dropped to 225
@109k miles
= 8.51064% difference

mine
280 miles it suddenly dropped to 261
@9.5k miles
= 7.02403% difference

I would say that's pretty excessive, for the low miles I would say even more excessive than yours.

SCCRENDO | 25. Juli 2019

Agreed. What you posted above are good tips to increase your range but has nothing to do with battery health. I always by the longest range Tesla available because even though I am old I do not wish to drive like an old man

escott | 25. Juli 2019

lol, ditto, well longest range 3 as that was my $ limit by Mrs Scott :-D
I scheduled a battery inspection for mid August. I will update the post once its complete.

blue adept | 26. Juli 2019

@RedShift

Ah, so from the responses it DOES appear to be an issue of localized environmental conditions, combined with driving habits, that are contributing to the degradation of owners' battery's and not the result of any insinuated flaw in the battery's design and/or integrity.

I made those comments in my first post tongue in cheek more so as a bit of humor than anything else, but I admit that I did wax a bit sarcastic in my second post because I didn't understand why you guys were contradicting the professionals, though it was not my intent to offend...

I'm afraid that my interactions with forum trolls and FUD'sters is having a negative affect on me, my bad.

SCCRENDO | 26. Juli 2019

@blue adept. I would disagree. Where is the evidence???

RedShift | 26. Juli 2019

@blueadept

It is not localized, many owners have regularly charged to 100%. They have seen degradation but not enough to suggest anything alarming. The batteries advise from Elon was generic because he is speaking to a general audience.

If you charge to 100%, and drive off without spending too much time sitting in that 100% state of charge, the degradation will be minimal. Same thing when the SoC is below 20%. This was the general agreement back in the early days of the Model S.

I still follow that today, and my own experience has been only a 3.8% degradation in my battery last 6.5 years.

Now, temperature affects this situation a lot. If you are in extreme climates, especially higher temperature climates, the battery will degrade faster.

When you drive fast or accelerate and decelerate fast - it may cause batteries to heat up more and that also causes more degradation.

One of the most important factors that should limit your rapid acceleration or deceleration should be TIRE WEAR. Both the S and the 3 eat tires like crazy! :-)

escott | 27. Juli 2019

For my post/car please remember it only has just over 9k miles on it so 7% seems extreme loss.
Also even tho I live in FL the care has barely seen much sun, I use it to work and back and home is 100% garage and work is 100% garage except when driving in the mornings and evenings so its usually in 85 degree temps. I doubt my climate control has ever kicked in except the occasional trip to the mall.

escott | 27. Juli 2019

also my car is only 7 months old

Xerogas | 27. Juli 2019

@escott: "For my post/car please remember it only has just over 9k miles on it so 7% seems extreme loss."
------
Get the Stats for Tesla app. It will provide you with facts about your battery health over time. Much better than trying to guess based on what the car’s algorithm shows as estimates.

SCCRENDO | 27. Juli 2019

@xerogas. This would be excessive even for my classic 2013 Models S. And for a Model 3 with newer battery technology I strongly believe he has a problem

Xerogas | 27. Juli 2019

@SCCRENDO: "@xerogas. This would be excessive even for my classic 2013 Models S. And for a Model 3 with newer battery technology I strongly believe he has a problem"
------
I agree, if it’s true loss. Why not use a statistical app to get some real data to prove it? So many people misunderstand how to interpret the dashboard displays. There have been so many threads where people think they’re getting huge losses when they’re not.

SCCRENDO | 27. Juli 2019

I looked at the Model S degradation years ago and there may have been an initial up to 4% loss and then it plateaued. The Model 3 battery is likely far better but I have not seen any data. Do you have any data

escott | 28. Juli 2019

@Xerogas
Never heard of it before, just watched a video on it, sure Ill get it looks great, sure I can get it. Thanks.
https://youtu.be/QtqtWxdE_kk?t=87

blue adept | 31. Juli 2019

@SCCRENDO

'Evidence' of/in support of what?

blue adept | 31. Juli 2019

@RedShift

All of the evidence I've heard of, researched or experienced, points to premature degradation being the result of prevailing environmental conditions or adverse driver habits (speeding, excessive use of the climate control system, improper/inadequate charging practices, even improper tire inflation and the like), so that's really all that I can go on, that's really all any of us can go on.

Notice that I didn't exclude the possibility of faulty battery cell? That's possible, even if improbable.

Thing is, if it were a case that the degradation were that noticeable, then @escott should have made an appointment for Tesla to have the car in for a checkup with the intent of their paying particular attention to the status of the batteries' integrity, albeit, in fact Tesla would've likely noticed the problem during an over-the-air update while gathering of the vehicle's telemetry status and sent notification to have the car brought in for servicing themselves (would they not?), but that is not what @escott is reporting.

It is for these reasons that I feel that @escott's problem is something other than an actual battery issue and, to that end, I wish them well with hopes that this isn't yet another fabricated FUDster scenario meant to besmirch Tesla's reputation.

blue adept | 31. Juli 2019

@escott

I also recommend that you follow @Xerogas' advice to install the app to get more detailed specifics on your batteries' condition to ensure that you're not misinterpreting the on-screen depiction of your batteries' livelihood.

escott | 02. August 2019

@Xerogas/blue adept

I got the app. Not a lot of data points yet tho
https://www.dropbox.com/s/kikagdvp4td0zmq/File_001.png

SCCRENDO | 02. August 2019

Great app. But I am not sure the battery info is any different from what I get on the car

Xerogas | 02. August 2019

@SCCRENDO: "Great app. But I am not sure the battery info is any different from what I get on the car"
------
I’m sure one can get the same info from the car and a lot of spreadsheeting, but what I enjoy is the statistical best-fit trends and such that help people visualize long-term data. The app author is a statistician, so the UI helps focus on objective facts and meaningful graphs.

SCCRENDO | 02. August 2019

I agree that it is worth the $20. But I doubt OP will get a significantly different result with the app. I’m betting his battery has issues.

blue adept | 03. August 2019

Were that the actual case, @SCCRENDO, then I'm inclined to think that Tesla would've flagged their car for inspection once the telemetry obtained during an over-the-air update was collated, processed and reviewed yet, by @escott's own accounting, that has not been the case so I have to wonder if it's a matter of their (Tesla) determining that the perceived loss was an issue of user error...?

SCCRENDO | 03. August 2019

I would be curious to see what the app shows. But I would take the car in for Tesla to test. My experience has been that recalibration will reclaim a few miles. But this is excessive. I now have 161000 miles on my 6 1/2 year 85 S. The original 265 mile battery is now 225 miles. I did have a sudden drop off at 108000 miles when it went from 245 to 225 overnight. It took a year to remanufacture the battery and I got 10-15 miles back. But I am now down to 225 miles again over 18 months. My model 3 at 39000 miles charges somewhere between 308-310. At most could have lost a few miles.

mbirnie51 | 04. August 2019

This is the same topic that was discussed on the MX forum under "Watt Hour/Mile":

My MX 75D is a March 2017 build, running v 2019.24.4 with 38,400 miles: There are 2 concepts at play here, first is capacity of the battery pack; the second is the range you can get from that battery pack.

You must understand that as your vehicle ages and gets more mileage on it, the CAPACITY of the battery pack will degrade slightly or dramatically depending on how you drain the battery and recharge it. A slight degradation occurs if you keep your discharge to above 15% and your recharge to 90% as suggested by the owners manual. A more dramatic degradation will occur if you constantly run your battery down to 0% and continually recharge to 100%. Keeping within Teslas suggestion, over time it has been shown that a Tesla with over 100,000 miles will have a reduction of the capacity of about 1.5 to 2%. So my 75KW pack would have a 100% charge of about 73.5 KW at 100,000 miles.

On to RANGE. New my vehicle would recharge to 236 miles at 100%. Now my lifetime watt hours/mile is at 346 and I can get 210 miles of range at 100% recharge. Wow, I "lost" 26 miles of range. That figure is what the battery icon on the dash shows. It is calculated by some algorithm, but can be done by hand calculation as follows. By design, Tesla will only allow you to use 72.5KW of a 100% charged 75 KW battery pack, they sequester about 2.5 KW to keep systems working and prevent bricking of the pack. So, if you divide 72,500watts by 346 watt hours/mile you get 209.5 miles of range. My asumption is that my capacity has degraded from 75 KW to about 74.5 KW at this time.

Now, if I go on a trip and keep in mind what @ Tesla_Tap and @ johnse say and some how reduce by consumption rate to 310 wh/m, I will go further than 210 miles (233 miles). The battery icon still goes down mile per mile based on lifetime rate of 346, but I can go farther cause I still have some capacity left in my pack.

Consider I recharge to 90%, so my capacity is 67KW upon start of a trip leg. I'll get to a Super Charger with 15 miles of range and have consumed 56KW of energy. That means I actualy have 11 KW left in my pack and 8.5 KW available to use. Even at 346 wh/m I should be able to travel another 25 miles.

So I don't fret over my loss of range on my icon, I know that by better driving habits, I can go over 240 miles on my battery pack. The biggest worry one should have is degradation of battery pack CAPACITY. Keep within Tesla's suggested discharge/recharge rates and your vehicle will give you 3 to 400,000 miles no problem.

blue adept | 05. August 2019

@mbirnie51

Thank you for the more detailed explanation of use vs mileage practices vs results.

+1