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Did Tesla tested Electromagnetic radiation while charging with supercharger?

Did Tesla tested Electromagnetic radiation while charging with supercharger?

Hi,

I was wondering if Tesla or anyone tested radiation / emf while supercharger is charging the car. Usually people sit inside (me too)

dmastro | 31. Oktober 2019

@Tronguy awesome response and you're obviously super knowledgeable - but I have no idea what it means. You're saying Teslas are safe, correct?

Rikki-Tikki-Tavi | 31. Oktober 2019

ALERT!!! Wall of text above

lbowroom | 31. Oktober 2019

Yes, that means that thought was put into safety, and its safe. However, in spite of that, we will all die someday anyway.

ReD eXiLe ms us | 31. Oktober 2019

lbowroom: +42! Precisely.

Tronguy | 01. November 2019

@dmastro: Yeah, Teslas are safe.
Let's make it shorter: Electromagnetic radiation runs the gamut from DC to Gamma Rays. We're awash in an ocean of this stuff; some of it artificial, most of it natural.
Here's a fun fact: Tune a radio to around 50 kHz (a radio, not a microphone) and listen: You'll hear these "whoops!" that last a second or so, starting high and going low. Wazzat? There's a dozen or so every 30 seconds.
Turns out it's lightning. As in, there's a lightning strike somewhere in the world. The EMF propagates and curves around the ionosphere, going clear around the planet.. multiple times. The high frequencies propagate faster (you guys did know that the speed of light in an atmosphere is a function of frequency, right?), so, as these waves propagate 'round and 'round the earth, you hear the Whoop! Whoop!, at random intervals, one per lightning strike.
And at those low frequencies (take my word for it: 50 kHz _is_ Very Very Low Frequency (VVLF, no kidding)) that stuff penetrates right through buildings, trees, human bodies, you name it. And there's a _lot_ of power in a lightning strike. On the other hand, we, and every other living thing, doesn't fall over dead when we get hit by this stuff. Or, those of us in the worldwide mass of living things who did fall over right off aren't around any more to tell us how dangerous it all is.
Yup, high enough power EMF that's a combination of (a) high enough in frequency/short enough in wavelength and (b) high in power can, generally, make currents flow in dirty bags of mostly water (that's us). But it also has to penetrate. By the time one gets to millimeter waves EMF generally gets stopped at the first conductive layer it runs into. (Although at one time the Army was having fun giving people burning sensations by blasting away at 10-100W at those frequencies..) Further, we're awash in an ocean of EMF, all the time, albeit at low levels.
So: Let's look at a Tesla. If you break my arms, I'll believe that there's probably some barely detectable EMF 10 MHz and up to, what, maybe 50 MHz. But that stuff will be much less, by orders of magnitude, than intentional emitters like CB radios, Hams, AM, shortwave, and all that: The FCC/ITU standards mandate that the car won't make that kind of stuff, otherwise it would interfere with licensed radio. So, if the car's not going to make enough signal to interfere with a made-as-sensitive-as-it-can-be radio, it's not going to muck with _you_.
That includes the AM radio bands, from 1.6 MHz to to 450 kHz, which is likely where the switching frequencies in the Tesla reside.
At lower frequencies: There's ridiculous amounts of natural emitters down there (lightning, remember?), but the wavelengths are really, really long; so long, that developing an E-Field big enough across a human to cause damage isn't going to happen. Unless, of course, one is sitting at ground zero of a lightning strike, but that's a different story. And no Tesla's going to do _that_.

Magic 8 Ball | 01. November 2019

And to further the discussion on foil hats I think Aluminum is fine.

Magic 8 Ball | 01. November 2019

And to further the discussion on foil hats I think Aluminum is fine.

Tronguy | 01. November 2019

Actually, the biggest risk to humans (and other living things) isn't at the low frequencies, say, below the frequency of blue light. It's up in the gamma radiation area and is probably one of the reasons that people get cancer; double so for airline pilots. You see, the Earth is being constantly bombarded by cosmic rays from supernovas and shocked gas across the galaxy and universe. When one of these things (fast moving protons, typically, traveling at 99.9%+ of the Speed O' Light) hits the atmosphere, it breaks up into a shower of subatomic particles that hit other molecules in the air and breaks up into more particles, etc., until the whole pile hits the Earth. And people.
At the atomic level, these particles act pretty much like bowling balls, breaking up molecules as they pass through stuff, including flesh. If you ever hang out at a $RANDOM science museum with a cloud chamber, you can actually see little straight zips of moisture condense as these particles pass through, once every couple of seconds.
In any case, if these guys hit your DNA, it'll break DNA strands, causing mutations. Get enough mutations at random and one gets two-headed cows and the like, not to mention cancer. Pilots who fly up high are more exposed and therefore get more cancer than the general population.
And this then raises the questions of traversing outer space or attempting to colonize the Moon or Mars, both of which lack significant atmosphere and/or magnetic fields that would reduce this stuff. Fun.

dmastro | 01. November 2019

But if I sit in my Tesla on Mars, will it protect me from gamma rays? Or am I going to Hulk out?

Tronguy | 01. November 2019

Oh, yeah: And one of the reasons that it's a good idea to reset one's computer from time to time is that those cosmic rays are big enough and RAM cells are small enough that a cosmic ray in the wrong place can flip a bit. Really. This is one of the reasons that ECC (error correction coding) RAM is used in banks and such, and why the design and feeding of satellites and other rad-hardened electronics is such a fun field.

Magic 8 Ball | 01. November 2019

Okay, I am going with double foil from now on.

Tronguy | 01. November 2019

@dmastro: You go ahead and sit in that Tesla on Mars. Assuming you got food and air and a way to get rid of waste, you'll probably be dead of cancer within a couple of years, no kidding.

Which is why people seriously talking about settling on other orbs sans magnetic fields and air plan on burying the cities tens to hundreds of meters down for the long term. Soil and rock _will_ stop cosmic rays.

Bighorn | 01. November 2019

Cosmic rays were killing people in Toyotas not too long ago.
https://www.wnycstudios.org/podcasts/radiolab/articles/bit-flip

kevin_rf | 01. November 2019

I'm just worried that it won't protect me from Neutrinos. I don't think Elon made the roof glass quite thick enough.

Tronguy | 01. November 2019

@kevin_rf: Good one.
For the uninitiated: "A neutrino of moderate energy could easily penetrate a thousand light-years(!) of lead."

dmastro | 01. November 2019

So a neutrino would also penetrate a double-thick tinfoil hat?

kevin_rf | 01. November 2019

Only the neutrinos that don't interact with the tin foil.

Magic 8 Ball | 01. November 2019

Time to go with S.E.P.

dmastro | 01. November 2019

And SPF

BumblebeEV | 01. November 2019

You should buy a nuclear reactor car

Tronguy | 01. November 2019

@kevin_rf: If I'm not mistaken, over at CERN in Switzerland, they've got a neutrino generator running that they aim at a lab in Italy, several hundred miles away. The beam goes _down_, through the Earth's crust, and comes up in the lab, where they've got one of those nifty neutrino detectors. No problem with attenuation through the Earth's crust or people, either. The lab has one of those dark-as-blazes tanks of special material with detectors that can detect the odd neutrino of the gazillions that the emitter makes, and thus Science Is Made.
The other Fun Fact I remember is from that Supernova 1987A. Three neutrino detector installations on Planet Earth detected a couple of dozen neutrinos in the space of 13 seconds or so. The lab guys were still going, "What was _that_?" a couple hours later when the _visible_ light showed up from the Large Magellanic Cloud.
Why did the neutrinos show up first? Because they kind of flew through the mass of the collapsing star without slowing down, whereas the electromagnetic stuff had to work its way out. Fun.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SN_1987A

kevin_rf | 01. November 2019

I'm just worried about a lethal dose of Neutrinos

https://what-if.xkcd.com/73/

Rikki-Tikki-Tavi | 01. November 2019

Crap and I thought if I eat healthy I am all good. Oh, well back to drinking )

hamiltonned | 01. November 2019

@WhiteWi: Wait. Drinking is unhealthy?

Rikki-Tikki-Tavi | 01. November 2019

Not if you drink Scotch :)

gballant4570 | 01. November 2019

Its a good thing I retired..... I used to hang out in nuclear plants some.....

Tronguy | 01. November 2019

@Bighorn: So, I went through the transcript. The first half, about the voting machines getting a count of +4096, and the subsequent study, is absolutely correct in the analysis.
The second half... Not so much. As it happens, My Other Car is a 2010 Prius. Further, I am a practicing EE who, amongst the other things that I do for a living, am involved the care, feeding, and programming of microcontrollers. And, when the out-of-control Toyotas came to light, I was active over on Prius Chat and, shall we say, took a professional interest in what was going on.
You may remember there was quite a bit of flack with Camrys and a number of other 2008-2010 Toyotas; I distinctly remember that some semi-retired cop and his passengers ended up very dead in the LA area after their car took off and wouldn't stop. Toyota, curse their name (and I'm not kidding here) claimed that the problem was with floor mats, going to far as to have replacement floor mats placed in their cars far and wide to "fix" the problem. Here's a hint: It wasn't floor mats. And it sure wasn't cosmic rays, either.
https://www.edn.com/design/automotive/4423428/Toyota-s-killer-firmware--...
So, when one builds a microprocessor system, one typically finds places in the memory for a stack, a heap, and a place for system variables. System variables like how far the throttle should be opened, or closed, or moved.
The stack is typically a place where one places the return location when one goes into a subroutine; further, it's typical that local variables in a subroutine get placed into adjacent locations to the return addresses. These variables and return locations are "pushed" onto the stack when one goes into a subroutine; when one returns, the stack pointer pulls back the return locations, dumps them into program pointer, and "pops" off the stack.
Go into multiple subroutines, go into interrupts, and stuff gets put onto the stack; come out of those subroutines, return from interrupts, and stuff gets popped off the stack.
Fine, wonderful. But the computer and operating system Toyota was using was first gen and put together by amateurs.
As time went on, the computer was used in multiple cars. They kept on adding functions. It was a slow computer. Over time, it got overloaded. Toyota _knew_ this was happening - the computer was resetting and restarting multiple times as cars _simply_ _drove_ _straight_ _down_ _the_ _road_. Why was it restarting? Because, the computer, not being able to keep up, kept on pushing more and more data onto the stack until the stack crossed over into the system variable area. You know - the area where fly-by-wire cars keep the thottle angle settings. Most likely outcome: The computer would freeze for a few milliseconds, the watchdog timer would reset the thing, and the driver wouldn't even know.
There are Things One Can Do to Detect when bad stuff like this happens. Toyota did none of that. (No changes to software, right?) It's worse: Real time, safety-critical hardware has watchdog timers that have to be cleared periodically lest they expire and cause a reset. Their watchdog timer design was fundamentally flawed.
I read the testimony of an expert witness who, after some real hard lawyering on the part of the plaintiffs of a particular nasty accident and death, got to read the code and look at the design in a Toyota-built clean room. No notes, but they could read. They took what they learned, put a Camry on a dynanometer, and created faults at will. it was crap hardware and firmware. Toyota killed dozens of people in the U.S. and who knows how many elsewhere with this stuff.
As it happens, the Prius was a green-field design. Different computer, different software, and _never_ had a problem with runaways. Although a couple of scammers tried to fake the media into believing that by riding the brakes and gas at the same time. (One of them got caught at it, though.)
I'm willing to believe that a bit flip might have done it to the people in the article you referenced. But, at the time that Radiolab article came out, I'm fairly sure that Toyota had yet to come clean. (And that was after NASA went in and looked - but they didn't have access to the firmware code. That came later.)
I'm still mad as hell about it. I wear an Order of the Engineer ring, and swore an oath not to endanger the public. Those people at Toyota, from the top down.. they knew, dammit. And sold the cars anyway.

RedShift | 01. November 2019

@tronguy

+1

From a fellow EE.

Bighorn | 01. November 2019

Wow—thanks Tronguy! Makes wading through other internet “experts’” drivel seem a bit less painful.

coselectric | 05. November 2019

I'm more concerned that the new Roadster could accidentally create a black hole that will swallow the earth the first time they really open that baby up.

ReD eXiLe ms us | 06. November 2019

Tinfoil caps molded to fit the shaven skull work best.

...yet the 'Forum Decorum' thread keeps evaporating, while this one remains...

M3phan | 06. November 2019

@ ReD eXiLe ms us, hahahahahahshaha!

TeslaTap.com | 06. November 2019

@Tronguy - also thanks - good summary. I knew about half of it, but not all the gory details.

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