Solar charging No separate solar inverter needed. Integrates with any solar panel setup.
Blackout power Always prepared for blackouts with two way power flow.
EV supercharging The world’s only home EV supercharger.
That's looking like a silver bullet product.
How would an Tesla react to current flowing out of the battery? Would it shut down? Would car mfgs add shutdown sensing to block it?
What a difference two days makes. Over here you were advocating against this exact product, stating that the easiest way to harness EV power for home use is to run a generator from the rear wheels using a dyno type roller generator
Will Tesla allow it is the question? They no doubt tested on CCS and Chademo cars so the communication and power must have worked.. Would it work via Tesla's Chademo?
It's possible tesla would failsafe the relays (aka 'contactors') open in the case outflow is detected.
Likely nobody here is in a position to know, however.
The device with a CCS and L1 plug is $7k which sounds inexpensive considering it is also the solar power inverter. It didn’t ask how much solar power when pricing it.
I’ve asked if they tested it with a Model 3 with the Chademo adapter since it only working with CCS and Chademo.
So if you have free supercharging does this mean you can charge up your car everyday and then hook up the car to your house and never pay for electricity? Don't think Tesla or stores that offer free charging would go for that.
@esla2018 | April 8, 2020 So if you have free supercharging does this mean you can charge up your car everyday and then hook up the car to your house and never pay for electricity"
Sure looks like it. If your usage for the car is 50 miles, that's just 12kWh and an energy efficient house, 15kWh, so if your system could generate 30kWh a day, it would work.
Assuming you kept the car charged to 85% and don't discharge below 10%, you'd have 50 kwh of emergency power on a day to day basis. For that efficient house which also has solar going, that would keep the house powered up via the car for days.
It's kind of the holy grail product many EV'ers (and Solar home people) have been looking for, surprised it hasn't gotten more play in EV and Solar media.
Tesla might be able to figure it out. If they can tell that you are taking 50kwh per day at a supercharger which would equate to 200 miles a day or 6000 miles a month, but are only putting a few miles on the odometer then they would know something's up. That's assuming they have a way of remotely seeing how many miles are on our cars.
Tesla2018 | April 8, 2020 Tesla might be able to figure it out."
By allow it, I meant the physical flow of the current out the charge port without damaging the car. If the car detected that as a fault of some kind and shut it off.
On the commercial side, Tesla preventing it because it wants you to buy Tesla Powerwalls, could certainly see Tesla doing that, no different than not providing the CCS adapters so we keep paying Tesla for non-home charging.
it would increase battery degradation as there are only so many cycles in Li-ion battery and that increased usage could see people getting to 30% degradation and triggering the warranty. Tesla could legitimately void the battery warranty as is way more usage than it was designed for. Same would be true for all EV mfg's.
Ossiaco is a Canadian company in Montreal. Maybe we can get @FactDoc to check it out.
As an emergency power source it would be perfect but no way to know what is emergency and what is regular usage.
Maybe EV mfgs could change their battery warranty to "500 full discharges" which the car could easily keep track of like an odometer for the battery.
My guess car mfgs will forbid when the find out about it.
I think someone with expertise needs to evaluate this. But it looks like it is promising 60 miles per hour. This would be achieved with an 80A charger on a Model S and less Amps on a Model 3. So no real magic. It looks like it may use DC power and may need an adaptor for Tesla just like we need a Chademo for Chademo chargers. So it is unclear what it would do for Tesla
Very doubtful it would work with Tesla. Tesla is precisely measuring power. If it goes negative, when trying to draw power out of the car, I expect the contactors will immediately open and shut off the HV battery power as part of the safety system, since there is no case where it is designed to do that.
Should some workaround be created, I can see someone charging and draining the battery daily, similar to how PowerWall works to time-shift the electricity. The PowerWall uses a different battery formulation that is optimized for that application. In the car, it would clearly add considerable wear on the battery. Some small percentage may fail for this extreme use case and/or degrade far more than it would when the battery is solely used for travel.
Should someone somehow bypass these safeties, I'd expect it could be grounds to immediately invalidate the battery warranty.
Now Tesla could approve such use with some limits and adjustments, such as limited to 48 hours of discharge a year, elimination of free Supercharging for that car, and some kind of reduction in the warranty, perhaps 6 years instead of 8. My guess is since they have the PowerWall solution, they would not be all that interested in opening up the battery as house backup.
TeslaTap.com | April 8, 2020 Tesla is precisely measuring power. If it goes negative, when trying to draw power out of the car,..."
But the battery is always going negative when driving the car. it's the outlet that is new. Instead of going negative via the traction motors it's going negative out the charge port. Is there some kind of rectifier/diode that prevents "backflow" out the charge port for safety reasons?
They must have tested this with CCS equipped EV's so apparently no "backflow preventer" for whatever CCS or Chademo equipped cars they used to test it.
"That's assuming they have a way of remotely seeing how many miles are on our cars."
They do. It's even displayed in the app.
" Is there some kind of rectifier/diode that prevents "backflow" out the charge port for safety reasons?"
No. They use an air gap to prevent current flow. The relays, also called contactors, are on the power and return lines of the battery pack; the clunk you hear as you approach your car is them closing.
As indicated in the 4th post, they might open them if unexpected current flow is detected. I would surely specify it that way.
I was referring to the power going out through the connector. The flow direction, to charge, is normal, and if a CCS adapter was made, fine if it mimics a Supercharger. Allowing the power to flow out of the connector is not normal, such as to power a house. I'd expect Tesla would immediately disconnect such an event. The current through the charge port is monitored separately from the power going into the traction motor and other parts of the car and is routed through different contractors.
I can't say what other non-Tesla EVs do. Perhaps they don't have any safety systems in place since few have as much experience as Tesla does in making safe EVs.
@TeslaTap.com "Allowing the power to flow out of the connector is not normal, such as to power a house."
Indeed but is there anything preventing it.
"I can't say what other non-Tesla EVs do. Perhaps they don't have any safety systems in place since few have as much experience as Tesla does in making safe EVs."
More actually as EV's predate Tesla.
Key would "cars that work with our system", cars they've tested and that work as they describe.
"Indeed but is there anything preventing it."
FFS. Yes. An open circuit.
Got this replay from the folks who can use EV's as off grid power source. Tesla won't allow it. I'd surprised if others do so I asked that in reply, which EV's allow it.
"A Tesla EV, equipped with the corresponding Tesla-J1772 and Tesla/CHAdeMO connector adapters, is compatible with dcbel™ J1772 AC Level 2 and CHAdeMO DC Level 3 charging and “solar charging” capabilities (assuming that the owner has a residential solar array).
Though it is technically feasible, a Tesla is not compatible with the “blackout power” feature of dcbel™ because Tesla does not allow it. Such usage will void the Tesla battery warranty and may cause technical problems with the EV.
Tesla have spoken out against bi-directional power flow. Some say it is because supercharging is free and so nothing prevents a Tesla user from driving to supercharger, selling power back to the grid to make money over and over again. Others believe that they don't want to because it will cannibalize their powerwall sales.
The Ossiaco Team"
Does any EV allow V2G? I guess if they have no warranty on the battery, it makes sense. More likely, any EV that allows this is only because no one thought of the warranty implications. For those non-Tesla EVs that have OTA updates, it would be trivial to change the policy and stop any kind of outflow usage. So what works today, may not tomorrow.
In an extreme case, the battery life could easily be cut in half due to daily V2G by charing off-peak and putting power back during the peak rates. Still some policies, such as very limited backups, would make it far more viable.
TeslaTap Perhaps after warranty periods expire vehicle mfg would be willing to open it up. Would need some negotiated handshake with the charger so it isn't flagged as a fault. However, I'd be a little surprised since putting HV into a third part device is messy from a liability standpoint. I'd expect that if they do go down that route, they'd do it with their own equipment.
But hey, I've been surprised before.
Got a further replay:
"It will not work with a Tesla - they have blocked any protocols other than their own. Such usage will void the Tesla battery warranty and may cause technical problems with the EV.
Put simply, dcbel can charge and discharge (to power a home in a blackout) the battery of any EV built on the CHAdeMO charging protocol like the Nissan Leaf and Mitsubishi Highlander. The CCS protocol (used by the CHevy Bolt and most American EVs) does not currently support bi-directional power flow, but it will as soon as this summer and dcbel was designed to be ready for this update to the protocol and will be able to immediately support CCS bi-directionality after a small over the air update is downloaded."
Cool idea, but the bi-directional flow on these Tesla competitors will either be blocked with an update or the warranty will be voided or greatly reduced. I don't see any EV company leaving this huge hole in their warranty exposure from extra wear on the batteries and cooling systems. Then again, most of these companies seem fairly clueless about EVs, which represent a rounding error in their sales - so perhaps it will slip in undetected for a while.
Maybe they could have a "Blackout Mode" where it will let you discharge down to 10% twice a year. Especially on Rivian, GMC Hummer and F-150E and other big battery off road capable vehicles.
Change the warranty from years to "500 full discharges/8 years/30% degradation" then owner can decide how to use the battery.
Sounds like the CCS protocol will allow it.
This sounds like a great use for our old Leaf that we don't drive far anymore anyway.
In the long run, before V2H or V2G take off, manufacturers will need to figure out a way to warranty batteries based on usage and stress, rather than time or miles driven.
On the first order, there is essentially a fixed number of kWh that can go through a battery before it drops to some maximum SoC. Sensors and memory in the battery pack could simply track the kWh going into and out of the battery, calculating the pro-rated value based on that.
There may be a desire for some sort of surge usage as well but, how to measure it would be a lot more complex.