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Model 3 sales east coast not fair

Model 3 sales east coast not fair

East Coast sales will be extremely low.
No tax incentives unless you own a tesla already. West coast will be wild because they have a chance at them.
Don't expect a wild first day on east coast.
4 friends threw their hands up in the air at cars will be delivered from West coast to east coast; Hence zero chances
of incentives. Zero! So 4 sales are now 0. I was going to order 2 and now I'm getting another prius instead.
Shame on Tesla and Elon for poor decisions that will massively affect sales on East Coast.

jordanrichard | 22. März 2016

What tax incentives do you think you are going to miss out on? Also you are jumping the gun here. Tesla will be delivering fully optioned cars first. So if someone on the East coast specs out a Model ≡ more than a west coaster, they will get their car first. Did you think that Tesla was only going to keep delivering cars to the west coast until the demand starts to wane, then move on to the mid west?

Tersalita | 22. März 2016

I get that this you view this as "unfair" and this is at least your second post about it being "unfair" as it might have an impact on whether someone gets the $7500 tax credit. If this leads you to the decision to wait to reserve, that's totally understandable.

I doubt I'm Tesla's target demographic as I am a 57 year old, single woman. However, on March 31st, I'll get up super early and drive 85 miles to the Seattle Tesla just be able to hand over my $1000. I've played on the Design Center and configured a Model S just to see what kind of options there are and what prices are for those options (even though the options/prices will be different for the Model ≡. I do not expect to purchase a car for $35K. I'm expecting it to be closer to $50K and probably a bit over that figure. I'm going into this with the idea that I will NOT get any tax credit. If I do get a tax credit, great - but, I won't be budgeting for one.

The thing is, I want a Model ≡ just as soon as I can get my hands on one. I couldn't justify the cost of the Tesla S or X, but now that there is a Tesla within my reach, I don't want to wait any longer than necessary. The tax credit would be icing on the cake. But, I won't shed a tear if I there's no tax credit left for me.

We all have different motivations for buying (reserving a chance to buy) this car. And yes, I'd feel this way no matter which coast I lived on.

Red Sage ca us | 22. März 2016

Time exists so that everything doesn't happen all at once.

PhillyGal | 23. März 2016

@tmonahan - The Model S is a WONDERFUL car for female drivers so in case you get impatient and need justification to pull the trigger on a CPO Model S, read this:

http://www.teslarati.com/why-women-should-drive-tesla-model-s/

jordanrichard | 23. März 2016

tmonathan555 +100. Excellent attitude. The tax credit shouldn't be the motivator, it is the icing on the cake.

Also, even if you can claim the $7,500 credit, it does not mean your car's net price will be $7,500 less. For a lot of people, that $7,500 exceeds their tax liability, so it does take care of it, but what you are then going to get as a refund is what ever Fed taxes were taken out of your pay. What ever amount that is, that is the figure you can use to calculate your car's net price, not the $7,500.

SUN 2 DRV | 23. März 2016

RedSage: +1
"Time exists so that everything doesn't happen all at once."

That's a awesome way to put it...very clever!

Red Sage ca us | 23. März 2016

joehuber: I haven't been able to confirm, but I remember that quote being attributed to Albert Einstein.

Tersalita | 23. März 2016

Thanks for that awesome read PhillyGal. I'm going to pass it along to a friend of mine in Northern Virginia. Part of me would love to take a Model S for a test drive and part of me SCREAMS - 'don't do it." It goes beyond whether I can afford an S, to do I need a luxury car for my 3 mile (each way) commute each day.

But, having said all that, that "purse thing" really speaks to me.

Haggy | 23. März 2016

When I got my Model S, Tesla made it clear that they were giving priority to those who bought the P85+. I didn't buy it, so I had to wait a month longer. It's way too early to tell how long it will take to get the car to different areas, but local deliveries make sense to start with. It's one less thing to figure out since customers will show up to get their cars. It will take time to ramp up, and until Tesla has a hand on that and knows what production figures they can expect in a given time frame. they won't be able to arrange transportation. And it won't make sense to arrange for it on a car by car basis. That could simply add a thousand dollars to the price of each car. Loading up a train with cars to a given city so that they can be trucked at once to a showroom for delivery is not the same task as sending out cars to different parts of the country in the order in which they are reserved, and without any notice. It's not like calling Uber.

Once Tesla knows how many cars they can expect to make per week based on local deliveries, they will be ready to start making some for other parts of the country. I would reasonably expect that to happen around the beginning of the quarter following the one where the production gets up to speed. At that point, any cars shipped out early in the quarter will make it to anywhere in the country to count as revenue for the quarter, and local deliveries would likely be put off until close to the end of the quarter so they can be picked up within days of coming off the assembly line and still count for the quarter.

PhillyGal | 24. März 2016

@Tersalita - If you go on a test drive, it'll cost you at least $70,000. Seriously, 15 minutes is all it takes.

jordanrichard | 24. März 2016

Terslita, I have had a couple of people flat out say they didn't want to drive the car, much less ride in it, because they know themselves and what will happen.

PG+1, approach a test drive with caution. That trip to the mall to buy a new pair of shoes or shirt, will end up costing at least $70,000. The sales advisor can only explain what the car physically does and it's features. Everything else that you experience can not begin to be accurately put into words.

dd.micsol | 24. März 2016

My wife and I would buy dual motors and bigger battery if we got 7500 back the following year.
tax credits should be in order of when cars are ordered and not delivered. That's all I'm saying.
Why drive 400 miles to the nearest store for 12hr jump on orders?
My understanding is if you order in CA in march of next year you will still get the car before I do in VT.
That just sucks.

carlk | 24. März 2016

Buyers in Canada, Germany and China don't get incentives too. $35K Model 3 is a great deal with or without the incentive. Much better deal than the Prius or any cars you could buy at above of below that price.

Hi_Tech | 24. März 2016

@DD - I doubt that someone in CA reserving next year, would get it before those reserving this year/month. I believe the concept is that they are trying to prioritize using several factors: employee, previous owners, number of options, residency. These would combine in some way or another that the company sees fit to determine how they want to build/deliver the vehicles for highest efficiency.

Also, keep in mind that the tax credit is not from Tesla Motors. This is something you get back on your taxes you file for that year. So if you got your car in 2018, then you'd include the EV credit when filing your 2018 taxes. So you'd see that as a refund to your fed taxes in early 2019.

All that said, just get your spot in line and reserve your car or two. You'll be fine when the time comes. The car is amazing and you'll love every bit of it that you get for every mile you drive!

Red Sage ca us | 24. März 2016

Haggy: +42! The Ultimate Answer to the Ultimate Question of Life, the Universe and Everything about "How Will Tesla Motors Handle Logistics of Deliveries?"

PhillyGal: +1! Hence, why NADA is working overtime to make sure that more and more States disallow the ability for Tesla Motors to offer Test Drives. The employees at 'independent franchised dealerships' have certainly all test driven a Model S, and they KNOW they don't have anything that feels the same way. They also know they WON'T have anything in the $35,000 to $50,000 price range that feels like the Model ≡ when it arrives on the scene. They want to make sure that as few potential buyers as possible get to feel that difference first hand.

dd.micsol: You'll have to speak to the IRS about that. Depending upon the language you read, some say that the cars count from the moment they are 'offered' and others say that it counts from the moment they are 'sold'. Essentially, from the moment a VIN is assigned, the car may well count against the running total.

Also, it isn't a situation where you might 'get back' $7,500 at all... What happens is that if you OWE at tax time, the amount owed is reduced. Thus, if you owe $10,000 that might be reduced to only $2,500 that you have to pay. If you owe $7,500 that amount may be wiped out entirely by the tax credit. And, if you owe $2,500 then that amount would be wiped out entirely, but you would NOT get a check for the 'remaining' $5,000... There are those who are lobbying that this be changed to a direct discount on the cost of buying the car instead.

Hi_Tech | 24. März 2016

@Red - I don't think the last part of your comment is correct. The restriction is that you cannot get more credit than what you actually pay in fed taxes.
i.e. If your fed tax rate is 15% total and you earned $60k, then your fed taxes would be $9k. But, if you paid this exact amount through your income checks every couple of weeks, then you'd still get to claim the $7,500 credit, which would come back as a refund.

If you earned only $40k, then your fed taxes (@15%) would be $6k, so max you could deduct is $6k, not $7.5k.
All of this assumes a significantly simplified tax for the examples only.

Red Sage ca us | 24. März 2016

HiteshBhatt: Well, surely anyone can 'game' their taxes by changing what they pay during the year. I was speaking in terms of not doing that. Meaning, if after all deductions or credits, sans the EV Credit, you still owe. I was using the K.I.S.S. Principle.

carlk | 24. März 2016

"Game" maybe too strong a word but most people should have no problem to move incomes and deductions around to make at least 7500 tax liability in one particular year. Sell stocks you have gain or loss, and pay mortages or other deductable payments in 12/31 or 1/1 the next year could move tax consequences from one year to the other. You might need to consult an account if you are not proficient in this though.

As for the date that can be considered the purchase one can always intepret it as the date that most to your advantage when it's not too clearly defined. Long as it's not intentionally cheating at most you will have to pay it back plus some interests if denied by the IRS but I doubt even that would happen. Maybe "game" I know but I thought I just mention it.

PhillyGal | 24. März 2016

@RedSage - It really bugs me. What does the N stand for? National. As in this nation. As in, America. As in, Tesla is a car that is honest to goodness, engineered, built and assembled right here. And next, the largest part (the battery) will be made here too. It grinds my gears to no end that someone is trying to stifle this company.

dsvick | 24. März 2016

@carlk: According to the IRS, https://www.irs.gov/Businesses/Plug-In-Electric-Vehicle-Credit-IRC-30-an...,
"For purposes of the 30D credit, a vehicle is not considered acquired prior to the time when title to the vehicle passes to the taxpayer under state law."

finman100 | 24. März 2016

...and for those that do not speak tax/IRS/lawyer talk??

ram1901 | 24. März 2016

@dd.micsol
Between this site and TMC I get the feeling most of the world's biggest whiners have congregated.
Tesla is NOT GM and Tesla is not perfect... in fact, there are none perfect, no not one.. but I digress.
Try buying a KIA soul EV in VT. Not happening. Try buying a Chevy BOLT in VT when they are finally sent to
dealers. Not happening. NOT even GM can supply EV's to EVERYONE at the same moment.
Tesla has to have a system in place to get the most bang for their buck so that they can continue to produce the best EV's on the market and there is no way they could just built 100,000 of them and get them to everyone who wanted one on the same day, week or month. It's technically and physically impossible.
So stop THREATENING Tesla with ... 'oh i had 4 people who were going to buy but now we're gonna buy a Prius.'
REALLY.. a Prius compared to a Tesla.

I feel better now.

dsvick | 24. März 2016

@finman100 - I agree that has to be the most bassackwards way of writing it. But, it means the quarter that you would use to determine if you qualify for the tax deduction is the quarter where you actually take title to the car.

georgehawley.fl.us | 24. März 2016

That settles it. I'm moving back to California.

Wait a minute don't they have oppressive property taxes out there? Don't they have a progressive income tax? Don't they have a personal property tax attached to the vehicle registration?

I changed my mind. I'll wait a couple of months for the car.:-))

Tersalita | 24. März 2016

Oh PhillyGal,
"@Tersalita - If you go on a test drive, it'll cost you at least $70,000. Seriously, 15 minutes is all it takes."

It's the "at LEAST $70,000" that gets to me. I saw another beautiful S in town tonight. That panoramic roof is gorgeous. I will stay strong. NO TEST DRIVE FOR ME!

Red Sage ca us | 24. März 2016

President georgehawley: Hmmm... I don't believe that California has that last thing. You called it 'personal property tax attached to the vehicle registration'...? You might be thinking of Virginia. Maybe. Here, there is just the registration to pay, and it's actually rather reasonable. Of course, I could have simply been ignoring the actual State Tax Law for most of the past 35 years...

dd.micsol | 25. März 2016

Well, 26k for a prius-29k with tax and 35k for T more like 40k with taxes. That's 13yrs worth of gas for the prius.
It makes sense. Not to mention that insurance is 1/2 of what tesla will be.

dd.micsol | 25. März 2016

BTW- I was told by someone close to Tesla that the queue is listed in serial number ranges of 1000.
example.
West will get 0-1000 for the first 1000 orders out there-
North will get 1001-2000 for the first 1000 orders
S same
E same
So, it's possible I might get a gov't incentives if this is true.

We can afford a 50k car but are against it to keep our emergency cash reserves.
If we knew we were going to get 7500 back the following year we might tap it temporarily and with the tax return replenish that money. Hence, ordering more options rather than base model. Being in VT we would
prefer dual motor. We paid over 40k in taxes last year-so yes, we'd get the money back easily.
We plan on retiring in 10 yrs and won't stray off that.
House will be paid off in 5 yrs.
Very tight strict budget.
Investing a lot too.
We are very good at budgeting ourselves.

PhillyGal | 25. März 2016

@tmonahan555 - We selected very few options for our 2014 S85 and the pano was one of them. Red paint, tech package (which morphed into AP while we waited) and pano were the ones I cared about. My better half vetoed my desire for textile (free) seats so we also have leather. (His sweaty man head has caused the headrest to look really oily already.)

Hi_Tech | 25. März 2016

@dd.micsol - Why do you assume Model 3 insurance will be high? Currently, my Model S insurance is in range of a entry-level luxury ICE vehicle. Though VT may have different insurance rules than her in MA.

Also, if your main focus is to get the lowest cost vehicle (including fuel), then buy a bicycle. No offense, but the Model 3 will drive like a luxury vehicle, while a Prius will drive like a... well, Prius. On top of that, you'll have maintenance which will cost you a good chunk of change. Lastly, even if you somehow don't get the $7,500 fed tax credit, I'm sure that you'd qualify for the 6 months of 50% or the next 6 months of 25% credits.

Hi_Tech | 25. März 2016

Slight correction: Model 3 will drive like a Tesla (not just any "luxury vehicle"). I'm assuming that Model 3 will have auto-pilot option. Which means that it'll most likely drive you! :-)

Haggy | 25. März 2016

I plan to be one of the first thousand in line then, but if I show up and there are more than 500 people in line, I'm going home. I hope they serve coffee.

dd.micsol | 25. März 2016

I have a specialized roubaix worth about 3k. I ride it about 300 miles a week. Usually go about 60-80m 3-5x a week. I'm getting older though. Only 3 more sniper years.

dd.micsol | 25. März 2016

BTW-We've had a prius - 2010 and it has costed us 3800.00 with gas and oil/tires. Very very reliable. We keep records. The model 3 according to usaa is about 3k yr for insurance.

dsvick | 25. März 2016

How can anyone give an insurance estimate for a car that no one has even seen yet? If they really have tossed out a figure of 3K a year (which is huge) then I'm sure it's pretty much a WAG and will get adjusted when they know something about the car.

Hi_Tech | 25. März 2016

My Model S is about $1k/yr for insurance. To put things in perspective, my Hyundai Azera (also large sedan, but entry-level luxury) is about $1k/yr for insurance as well. I don't know VT rules, but my figures are based in MA, which does have quite high rates, but that cuts across all cars, not just Tesla.

Bighorn | 25. März 2016

Our new Tesla S (P85+) was quite a bit cheaper to insure than our 6 year old Prius. Lots of bad speculation in this thread.

dd.micsol | 25. März 2016

Age and price of car and location and past crash history makes a difference-even when crashes aren't your fault-it skyrockets.

dd.micsol | 25. März 2016

btw how much are you insured for? We have 1m coverage. I'll bet you have about 50k coverage.

dsvick | 25. März 2016

oh for the love of ....

You can't blame the car on for your high insurance if you have past accidents, live in a high insurance cost area, or decide to carry a lot of insurance. None of that is specific to the car, it will be high regardless of what car you have.

PhillyGal | 25. März 2016

@dd - Time to take it easy. You needn't insult long time owners or accuse them of having crap insurance.

This forum is a helpful place full of helpful people. You've added no value thus far and it even appears you're making false negative claims (no one is scalping cars...) I don't know to what end but tone it down.

@Mclary - Where for art thou?

shepbob | 26. März 2016

@dd - get a grip!

I understand that you are watching your savings as you head into retirement - I know, as I am already mostly retired.

I took delivery of my Tesla last June, and it now sits next to our Prius in our West Coast garage. I have no trouble at all deciding which one I want to drive, given the choice. I was happy to get the tax credit, but I would have found a way to do it anyway. I am planning to put down a deposit on one or two Model 3s next week. You should do the same if you want one - when it comes time to commit, if the tax credit is no longer available for you, you can cancel - I'm sure many people will.

But, if the tax credit is the only way you can finagle your EV, you might want to consider a Chevy Bolt. I hear that they will be available sooner, and Detroit is way closer to VT. I seriously doubt that the lines at the Chevy dealers will be that long, though I hope that the Bolt is a great success. There appear to be about 150,000 more credits available to GM customers, so no problem there!

In the meantime, relax. Life is way to short to blow a gasket over concerns such as these, IMO.

dd.micsol | 27. März 2016

So, in the end, no one can answer my question factually. Hence, my question is true and relevant.
Who gets those 7500 tax credits-will the website tell you when you order the car? By order/date/time/location/queue number/ etc. It's just not clear at all. If it's still by title-then I expect nothing.
Phillygal-you need to get a grip. My question is relevant more than a lot of other questions on this forum.
But no one has the answer which to me is shocking. 168 IQ elon musk can't inform us of this-it's a shame.
You can keep quoting the IRS which is written for dealerships and not Tesla. If I were Elon-I would still release the cars west to east in monthly increments. West coast November-North December-South January-East Feb.
This way no one location gets all the 7500 credits. However; I do realize it is is possible (just saying possible) that model s and x will sell another 75k cars before the first E rolls out the door. It will only take about 25k Es to get rid of the super nice tax incentive and from there will faze out rather quickly. It's by number of cars and not months-called the IRS to ask.

My wife and I will be grabbing a deli ticket in Boston but not hoping for any type of incentive; hence, will buy zero options. Total cost to buy 35k car will be 37,869.92. Yearly cost will be 743.00 for charging and insurance increase of 3,189.00. These are today's estimates-so I'm expecting these number to go higher as I won't see the car for at least another 2yrs.
Will there be any Elon surprise perks for 1st day buyers-my guess is no, but maybe I'll be wrong there. As for the incentive question validity-I'm completely right! End of my replies to this tread.

KP in NPT | 27. März 2016

What do you expect Tesla to tell you? "Only 100 more cars until we hit 200K!" Since the model 3 is years away, and the 200K limit is also tens of thousands of cars away and depends on US sales between now and then, why are you expecting to know TODAY how Tesla will handle something so far into the future?

As you know, the credit starts to step down the second quarter AFTER the 200K is reached. During the quarter immediately following, Tesla can pump out as many cars as they possibly can and they will all qualify for the full credit. It doesn't matter what your queue number is, only in what quarter you expect delivery. I would expect that by that time, every single EV website/blog AND Tesla will have covered that the 200K limit has been reached and when the credit will start to step down - and so we will all know that we must take delivery by the end of the second quarter after that to get the full credit.

Really I think this is a lot of hand wringing for something a couple of years away and predicated on future sales. Your best chance to get it, though, is to place your reservation and then when invited to configure, assess then where things are. I believe there will be plenty of information available at that time for everyone to make an informed decision.

PhillyGal | 27. März 2016

So you're mad that no one has a crystal ball? That 168 IQ Elon can't predict how many S/X models will sell before the first 3s roll off the line or how many M3 reservations will be made by employees and existing owners?

By the way, your original post - which I think you need to read - did not have a question in it. It was a childish rant proclaiming that there will be no early reservations on the East Coast. To be honest I don't think you're ready for Tesla ownership. It's a bit more complex and nuanced than other car buying experiences. It doesn't sound like you're going to be happy no matter what they do to try to get as many people the tax benefit as possible.

Chunky Jr. | 27. März 2016

It makes sense to start on west coast to save money on shipping costs. By the time they work through the production kinks getting cars to people on west coast, they will probably shave a bit off the manufacturing cost and make shipping elsewhere more feasible. They probably have tight margins and want every penny showing in their books for the first quarter or two.

Red Sage ca us | 27. März 2016

dd.micsol demanded, "Who gets those 7500 tax credits-will the website tell you when you order the car?"

No. Never has. Never will. No one else's website tells this either. It is a determination based upon factors that have already been related in this thread and elsewhere, but you continue to ignore. Those are the facts.

It is outlined at the EPA's website: Federal Tax Credits for All-Electric and Plug-in Hybrid Vehicles

It is illustrated in this chart:

It is specified in documents at the IRS website: Plug-In Electric Drive Vehicle Credit (IRC 30D)

Elon Musk, CEO of Tesla Motors, has been very direct in saying that no one should count on this Tax Credit being available for use with Model ≡. Not you. Not me. Not anyone else. It may go away for political reasons. It may simply expire due to sales of Model S and Model X. In either case, receiving the Tax Credit, as a full $7,500 amount, is NOT guaranteed in any way, shape, or form.

You may well wish to be informed ahead of purchasing whether or not you will qualify for it. Too bad. We don't know. We can't tell you. Neither can Tesla Motors.

Time exists so that everything doesn't happen all at once.

Bighorn | 29. März 2016

@PG
Don't waste your breath--obvious troll at this point

damonmath | 29. März 2016

@Bighorn +1

rdalcanto | 29. März 2016

Let's see.... 2 options here:
Option 1) Put down a deposit and get in line, and see how things play out over the next 2 years before getting upset.

Option 2) Throw a tantrum now with little information, don't put down a deposit, and realize 2 years from now you really screwed up by not getting in line. Then live with regret for the rest of your life.

Correct/smart choice seems obvious to me.

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