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burdogg - Car that was for sale

burdogg - Car that was for sale

@burdogg, looks like the person selling the Model 3 has taken down the post about it. I know you were pretty active in that thread and praising the poster for being willing to sell the car only for his cost and not being opportunistic enough to want to make a profit.

I was interested in buying the car, especially since he expressed over and over that he was just going to sell it for his cost. I e-mailed him almost immediately after seeing the post. Only to get no reply. Then got a reply two days later that he had sold the car that cost him $60,000 for over $68,000 and if anyone wanted to make a backup offer, they could.

So, even those with the good intentions of not making a profit eventually succumb to the reality that this is America and we'd be fools for not taking what someone is willing to pay. Your Angel of a man who wanted to be Ethical changed his mind quite quickly once offers at a much higher price started coming in.

Not saying he did anything wrong. Completely understand it. Would have been silly for him to decline $68,000 to take an offer at $60,000 just to be ethical.

Just letting you know, including the lawyer that was teaching ethics, that selling a car to someone at a price they are willing to pay for it doesn't make him unethical. It just proves that he's not a financial idiot by turning down a better offer for a lower one just so later reservation holders wouldn't get mad at him because they're still waiting in line to buy the car.

If I had an employee who did that, they'd be fired for incompetence!

lilbean | 01. Januar 2018

Just like a ticket scalper. Unethical.

SCCRENDO | 01. Januar 2018

What a surprise. Some soeazeball using the forum as a personal Craig’s Lust

SCCRENDO | 01. Januar 2018

Sleazeball

2015P90DI | 01. Januar 2018

@lilbean & sccrendo, so what should the guy have done to remain ethical? He offered to sell the car at his cost. Gave his e-mail. Probably got 100 e-mails from people saying I want the car. He obviously only had one car to sell, so he couldn't satisfy all 100 people. Naturally, those 100 people really want the car, so I'm sure many of them started offering him more money to get to the top of his list with apparently one offering $68,000.

So, seriously, not being sarcastic, what should he have done? Because higher offers came in, should he have just said "I have to remain ethical, so it's not right for me to sell the car at over list price price, but it's not right for me to turn down 100 people, so I should just be forced to keep the car I don't want".

I mean really? Are you telling me if you changed your mind, offered to sell the car, you wouldn't take the highest offer you got for it?

rxlawdude | 01. Januar 2018

If I offered to sell something for what I paid, I would do that, even If people were willing to pay more. That's me. Do what you say and say what you do.

If I wanted to be a free marketeer and gouge for what the market will bear, I am not unethical if I say what I planned to do.

lilbean | 01. Januar 2018

He offered to sell the car at his price but sold it at the higher price. He made money off of Tesla.

2015P90DI | 01. Januar 2018

OK, @rxlawdude....you have 100 people willing to pay you for the car. How do you ethically choose one of them?

phil | 01. Januar 2018

"He made money off of Tesla."

Tesla wants us all to make money off Tesls. That's what the Tesla Network is all about. Making money off Tesla is good. Reselling a Ford for a profit, well, that's fine too. Making money by robbery, fraud, or white slavery - now that would be unethical.

SCCRENDO | 01. Januar 2018

Personally I could care less whether he made a profit or not. It’s the use of these forums for personal sales and referral codes that I object to

phil | 01. Januar 2018

"... succumb to the reality that this is America and we'd be fools for not taking what someone is willing to pay."

This has nothing to do with America. Such behavior would be equally foolish in China, Morocco, or North Korea.

Rutrow | 01. Januar 2018

Is only "white slavery" unethical?

Madatgascar | 01. Januar 2018

I’m with SCCRENDO. He’s not taking advantage of Tesla. In fact, the higher the price, the better it reflects on Tesla. Just don’t set a precedent for using the forums for the transaction, or we will get inundated. Advertise elsewhere.

phil | 01. Januar 2018

Rutrow | January 1, 2018 "Is only "white slavery" unethical?

:) No, just an example. Personally, I'm against all forms of slavery. But if you force your autonomous Tesla to work all day as a taxi, is that enslavement?

lilbean | 01. Januar 2018

+1 SCCRENDO

He sold his car and made a profit on the website that belongs to the manufacturer of the product.
He said he would sell it for the same price he paid but didn’t. He sold it for more.
He used his priority to make money.

rxlawdude | 01. Januar 2018

@2015... simple. First come, first served.

Like Tesla.

Coastal Cruiser. | 01. Januar 2018

burdogg +1

rxlawdude | 01. Januar 2018

And I stated that if he sold for what he paid for it, he would be a unicorn.

Human nature. Greed is the root of all human evil.

Coastal Cruiser. | 01. Januar 2018

SCCRENDO: ...It’s the use of these forums for personal sales and referral codes that I object to"

Exactly. And you are the model folks refer to as an example of never misusing the Tesla AUTOMOBILE forums.

(sorry. Someone had to point out what a hypocritical statement that was.)

phil | 01. Januar 2018

"Greed is the root of all human evil."

Obviously not. Rape, child molestation and sadism are obvious counterexamples.

Greed is the root of some human evil.

rxlawdude | 01. Januar 2018

Each of which is rooted in "give me what I want."

phil | 01. Januar 2018

Child abuse is motivated by greed? You have an odd understanding of the word "greed". Had you said "desire", perhaps you'd have been right, though your point would have been trivial.

phil | 01. Januar 2018

Child abuse is motivated by greed? You have an odd understanding of the word "greed". Had you said "desire", perhaps you'd have been right, though your point would have been trivial.

2015P90DI | 01. Januar 2018

@rxlawdude, you would think, first come, first served, but assuming he's not an auto dealer with thousands of cars to sell, it's not that simple. Nothing "just like Tesla" Tesla can take orders online, take your payment and move on. Tesla will also be building millions more cars. It may be first come first served as far as what order you get the car, but a private party seller doesn't have the luxury of selling the next buyer that wants one another car.

Assuming he doesn't have the ability to take full payment online instantly, and that most buyers wouldn't give someone $60,000 online instantly based off of an internet forum post and assuming the guy has a life and doesn't have all day to schedule time for a bunch of people to come look at the car and wait for the first one to make payment, he had to narrow down the list somehow. As we know, many people would just be showing up for the opportunity to see and drive the car without the intention of buying it. Thus the guy could spend days or weeks scheduling different possible buyers. Again, assuming he has a regular job and doesn't have time for that, it's just not practical. Also probably not a good idea to schedule a bunch of people at the same time, only to have them start fighting for who gets it. And finally, assuming that not everyone lives just around the corner from him, it's not fair to ask more than one person to travel a decent distance only to be told the car is sold.

It's not realistic for the guy to potentially spend several weeks scheduling multiple people. Maybe he's fortunate and the first one actually buys it, but that's not always the case. Plus people's natural instinct is to tell you they'll pay your price, then show and try to negotiate you down in price knowing they're the only buyer standing their ready to buy it. It could go on and on and on.

I get that some of you have principles and the lawyer wants to argue his case until he's blue in the face, but I'm not buying that ANYONE in this scenario, wouldn't do just what the seller did. Got a bunch of calls for a car he would have sold for what he had into it if he got just ONE call, but then got inundated with probably a 100 responses. Being like most of us where time is valuable and you want to complete a sale as quickly as possible, you're going to do the most logical thing and narrow up the list by seeing who's going to make the best offer. His intentions apparently were good, but he just did what any reasonably logical person would have done given the circumstances that demand far outweighed the supply he had. Anyone how argues he should have done something otherwise is just trying to prove a point, but know in their own heart of hearts, would have done the same thing themselves.

On the flip side, maybe I'm defending the guy and he played me for a fool and this was his plan all along.....List it on a forum, pretend to be a saint and say I'll sell it for my cost, knowing that tons of people would jump at that opportunity, then claim I had no choice but to sell it to the highest bidder because I got overwhelmed. I get a profit, yet get to claim "Saint" status and ethics!!

SCCRENDO | 01. Januar 2018

Can you imagine if everyone with reservation used these fora to sell their cars at a profit? In feel the same way about people using their referral codes on these fora.

ReD eXiLe ms us | 01. Januar 2018

The compunction and desire to make the lives of others as difficult as possible could be considered a form of 'greed'.

phil | 01. Januar 2018

SCCRENDO | January 1, 2018 "Can you imagine if everyone with reservation used these fora to sell their cars at a profit? In feel the same way about people using their referral codes on these fora."

Eh, doesn't bother me so much. Seems like a useful service Tesla should want to offer its customers. If they made a separate forum or section available for resales, we could ignore it or use it as we wish, and everyone would be happy.

phil | 01. Januar 2018

SCCRENDO | January 1, 2018 "Can you imagine if everyone with reservation used these fora to sell their cars at a profit? In feel the same way about people using their referral codes on these fora."

Eh, doesn't bother me so much. Seems like a useful service Tesla should want to offer its customers. If they made a separate forum or section available for resales, we could ignore it or use it as we wish, and everyone would be happy.

ReD eXiLe ms us | 01. Januar 2018

The compunction and desire to make the lives of others as difficult as possible while ingratiating yourself could be considered a form of 'greed'.

burdogg | 01. Januar 2018

We will all never agree on this :)

But I will say, just because you CAN get more money - doesn't mean you SHOULD :) That applies to more than just selling a car - it is a mantra of life. Some have the mantra - do whatever it takes to get more, step on people etc... while others are more apt to care about those around them.

I will say from my life experience - I Have been blessed with more than just money by following the Do unto others rule...

And yes, it is hard to turn down $8,000 but sounds like this was out to be a bidding war - any takers to go higher... But as I felt before - Tesla did not BUMP up this or ANY owner to turn around and sell the car to the highest bidder - hence my personal view on the situation. But so be it - guess it is life, but some call it Karma. But my peace and happiness is worth so much more than...MONEY!

NESM | 01. Januar 2018

@Burdogg+1

SCCRENDO | 01. Januar 2018

Phil. There are many appropriate places to sell cars and it is not here. There were times when everyone was putting up there referral codes and we were overwhelmed with every second douchebag in town offering theirs. Referral codes should be earned.

lilbean | 01. Januar 2018

Well said, burdogg!

lilbean | 01. Januar 2018

It would be interesting to know if those who do not see this as unethical are business owners. I’d guess that they are not.

phil | 01. Januar 2018

Sccrendo - Agreed, it was annoying, and could have been better managed.

Burdogg - Nothing I can disagree with in your post. Especially the part where you said that we will never all agree!

phil | 01. Januar 2018

Lilbean, I can't understand your beef at all. Lots of businesses are dedicated to the purpose of helping others make profits, using their products, services, websites, etc. There is absolutely nothing wrong, nor unbusiness like about that.

Examples are consultants, financial advisors, wholesalers. I don't see why you'd begrudge anyone making an honest profit. Why not just live and let live?

mbirnie51 | 01. Januar 2018

Just thinking here…maybe the seller should take the $68k. Then consider what extra time was invested with all the 100 buyers filling his/her ear with why they should get the M3 and not the other 99 buyers. The sellers time is valuable, so seller might have thought it would take about 10 hours to consummate a deal at $60k, but so much more came pouring down on them with the additional number of buyers. A metric of time could be what the seller had to expend in buying the M3 from Tesla, getting insurance, DMV, et al. Then track the time spent in making the $68k sale, subtract that from original buy from Tesla. Now let’s say the sellers extra time is worth $2k, and then donate the difference, $6k to a charity. IMHO ethics is pretty well covered, greed is minumalized, and most(?) everyone here is satisfied. Nothing in this world is perfect.

burdogg | 01. Januar 2018

phil - I would say this was not an honest profit - this smells of buy to sell, not buy, didn't like it so now sell. And while some say this is a smart business move - the issue boils down to this - Tesla did not BUMP up this owner to Make a profit on the product they LET him buy (yes, let, they have actually NOT sold a car to someone before that wanted one). They had other reasons to bump him up.

Again, not trying to tell everyone I am right - as again we won't agree on this. But trust me - great money business moves in my profession would have a lot of you screaming foul, all just because I can, trust me, I hear it already all over the internet. I keep my prices down because - greed does not need to be my motivator, I can take care of people, make a great living, and not overcharge for my services, even though all around me do!

burdogg | 01. Januar 2018

By the way - none of this hurts me. I will still get my model 3 at the same time regardless. To me this is more of a discussion about life and we all see it so differently - which is natural. None of us were raised the same way, none of us have had the exact same life experiences, so we won't all agree.

lilbean | 01. Januar 2018

An honest profit? Ok.

phil | 01. Januar 2018

Burdogg - I don't know about a 'bump up', so perhaps that's the source of our disagreement - a part of the story I am not aware of.

Was the bump obtained dishonestly? If so, that's wrong. If not, I still have no objection (not that it's any of my business to begin with) to someone re-selling his legally-obtained property at a mutually agreeable price. Reselling seems completely appropriate, and commonplace (though it can in certain cases be illegal or prohibited by contract). I resell all my cars, though it's usually after 10-20 years of use. Never felt the slightest bit guilty about it, and I don't imagine I'd feel guilty if the resale occurred after only a week of use.

Carl Thompson | 01. Januar 2018

Making a profit is not unethical as long as both parties agree to the sale voluntarily. Many of you have bought Tesla stock and sold it at a profit. Is that unethical? Tesla stock is in demand and if people want to pay you more than you paid what's wrong with that? How is selling a car at a profit any different? Just like with the stock if the buyer of the car doesn't like the price they don't have to buy.

Where things start to get unethical is when the item for sale is a necessity and not voluntary for the buyer. You _need_ food, health care, etc. and it would not be ethical for the sellers to band together to force buyers to pay astronomical prices which the buyer has no choice but to pay.

Ross1 | 01. Januar 2018

If anyone else wants to sell their 3 at cost, plenty of dealers ready to buy and sell for more. Does your ethics just apply to the first sale or evermore down the track?
So maybe it is for the common good, and all future sales are pegged at what Elon pulled out of his hat one day.
So perhaps you legislators would like to peg each onsell at say 10%?
Now tell me about depreciation: No one should ever sell their Tesla for less than they paid, as it is undercutting Tesla's new car sales.
Give me a break.

2015P90DI | 02. Januar 2018

I liken this situation to the little "leave a penny, take a penny" tray sitting at the register. Of course you have those that share equally, leaving it when thy have them and then not feeling guilty about taking them when you need them. But then there are those that always take, take, take. Then you have to the ones who leave a penny almost every day, but the one day they have a $20.02 bill come up on the register, they, instead of taking two pennies to go along with the $20 dollar bill they have, will instead pull out a $100 bill and pay with that instead.

Ross1 | 02. Januar 2018

?

AJPHL | 02. Januar 2018

Let the thread die. Kill it, if you have to...

andy.connor.e | 02. Januar 2018

What would be ethical, would be to NOT make the line longer by buying something you intend to make a profit off of, because of how long the line is.

SamO | 02. Januar 2018

Meh . . ." A tale told by an idiot, full of sound and fury, signifying nothing."