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Higher Mileage Roadsters

Higher Mileage Roadsters

I've been doing some research about high mileage Roadsters as I'd like to know how well they have held up. So far the highest mileage Roadster I've found mentioned online was at http://www.teslamotors.com/blog/northern-california-roadster-record with roughly 67,000 miles back in mid April. The article doesn't say much about how reliable the car has been, but I wouldn't take it into consideration anyway cause it is "Validation Prototype 11". Does anybody else have over 50,000 miles on their Roadster? If so, have you had any major problems? I've read that the battery pack loses %30 of it's capacity after about 50,000 miles. Has anybody personally verified this? Thank you in advance for your responses!

Timo | 19. November 2010

+1 for this question. Roadster FAQ mentioned 70% capacity after 50k miles or five years (IIRC). Is that accurate?

Rod and Barbara | 19. November 2010

For what its worth, I have 24 months and 16,000 miles on my Roadster and the battery pack has lost approximately 3% capacity. I have had no problems at all with the electric power train. In the first couple months I had the car into the shop twice to fix a door handle problem, that has since be reengineered, and to adjust the rear trunk lid latch. I have experienced no other problems with the car.
Rod

Douglas3 | 19. November 2010

Expected Battery Life Seven-years or 100,000 miles

From http://www.teslamotors.com/roadster/specs>

Timo | 20. November 2010

There were figures 50000 miles five years and 70% capacity in now disappeared Roadster FAQ. Can't find that 100000 miles anywhere. Where exactly do you see it (apparently site contents tune itself based on reader IP, so I see European content, kilometers instead of miles and so on).

qwk | 20. November 2010

I bet it is not very much if you take care of your battery. Certainly nowhere near 30% after 50k miles. Another thing to remember is that with the newer firmware update, the roadster lost about 6 miles in standard mode. I would guess they adjusted battery charging parameters.

Douglas3 | 20. November 2010

Okay, go starting from Telsa Motors home page:

Click Roadster at top.

Click Specs on next line.

Click Performance tab.

Scroll down to Battery section.

Georg | 20. November 2010

The "Specs" link is broken, no matter how you try to get there.

Timo | 20. November 2010

@Douglas3, ok, that's where I expected it to be, but it isn't there, so apparently that 100000miles is missing in "European content" of that tab.

This is what it has:

Battery

Custom microprocessor-controlled lithium-ion battery with 6,831 individual cells. 3.5 hour charge time from empty to full using the Tesla High Power Wall Connector at 240 Volts and 70 Amps.

Range 340 km*
Expected battery life Seven-years
Battery heater for cold weather charging to -20 degreesCelsius Standard

* Based on European Electric Vehicle Combined Cycle

Douglas3 | 20. November 2010

Here's what I see (Canadian Content):

Custom microprocessor-controlled lithium-ion battery with 6,831 individual cells. 3.5 hour charge time from empty to full using the Tesla High Power Wall Connector at 240 Volts and 70 Amps.
Range 394 km*
Expected battery life Seven-years
Battery heater for cold weather charging to -20 degrees Celsius Standard

* Tested range in combined LA4 & HFEDS in accordance with California Code of Regulations.
Range 245 miles
Expected Battery Life Seven-years or 100,000 miles
Battery heater for cold weather charging to -20 degrees Celsius

bhp | 23. November 2010

6,831 individual cells (69P x 99S)

Motor power = 215Kw @ 375 Volts = 215,000 / 375 = 573.333 amps

means when motor is giving full power of 215Kw the amps required is 573.33 (of course when voltage is 375).

99 series cells x 3.8 volts = 376.2 Volts (a close guess/ not sure!)

69 parallel x 2.2 Ah = 151.8 Amps

Now the max c-rate,

573.33 / 151.8 = 3.77 C-rate !!!!!!!!!!!

Now max allowable / recommended Crate is 2C by battery companies!
Or else your battery will start degrading and the overall life is will go down............:-(

qwk | 24. November 2010

2C is for different lithium batteries. I think LithiumCobalt are 5C.

bhp | 24. November 2010

Well, yes they to run at 5C, but for 10 sec pulse discharge....

moreover most battery companies claim to have around 1000 life cycles or more for 18650 cells.....

BUT ON THE OTHER SIDE

Roadster goes like 245 miles / single charge !

over-all mileage is around 100,000 miles

100,000 / 245 = 408 cycles (ONLY)

what about remaining 600 cycles ?

BladeRunnings | 13. Dezember 2010

Thank you Rod and Barbara! I think some of you misunderstood. I'm looking for real world experiences with reliability and battery life, not what has been posted on the website. :)

Brian H | 15. Dezember 2010

bhp;
you are really persistent in your strawman manufacture, aren't you?

Obviously, most people will be doing recharge from partial discharge to full, not from dead empty. In fact, most will drive <<100 mi./day, and recharge each night. Since R&B have had the car 24 mo., and probably recharged it EVERY NIGHT, that's >700 recharges, and the battery is down 3%.

To get to 70%, it will take about 6+ times as long, which is >13 yrs, and also over 100,000 miles.

So it looks like Tesla specs are right on, and that you're full of it.

searcher | 19. Januar 2011

Was blown away after reading about all the one million mile roadsters in the newsletter. Some of you mathmatical folks do the math comparing similsr price ICE car, take into account battery purchases and price of electicity vs fuel and aprx maintenance of ICE and lets get at least a rough estimate of the comparative economics. Might be that the electric car is an extreme bargain over the long run. Of couse how many ICE cars could run a million miles without major overhauls, {engine, transmission swaps etc.}? Or the most likely scenerio how many different ICE cars would have to be purchased to get this performance. Can really see the wisdom now for Teslas concept of building foundation on quality rather than quantity. Whenever they do come with the smaller cars the qulity thus demand will be built in and I like their emphasis on safety as I have already discussed safety concerns and small cars. {Hope this is not getting into the stream of consciousness remarks}.

qwk | 19. Januar 2011

You realize this is combined miles, right? There is no single roadster that has 1,000,000 miles on the odometer. Highest reported is 80k miles.

dsm363 | 19. Januar 2011

I thought the Roadster forum was a safe place=)

qwk | 19. Januar 2011

LOL

BladeRunnings | 20. Januar 2011

Hey qwk, would you happen to have any more information about the Roadster that has hit the 80k mark? I'm wondering if the car has had any problems as well as how much charge the battery will hold.

searcher | 20. Januar 2011

My bad, obviously didn't read the article in detail. Will reread more carefully. Surely not just Mercedes and Volvo can do this. Know there is one particular Volvo engine that routinly goes 400,000 miles without overhaul. Probably lot more but I just know about Volvo. Seems conceivable Tesla could easily do a million miles with so little parts to wear etc.

searcher | 21. Januar 2011

My apolgies to everone. Just reread the newletter thing. What a goof on my part But do hope some of the Tesla's will be able to do this. Would this not be cool that they did it "enmasse" as I thought they had done.

qwk | 21. Januar 2011

@bladerunnings, unfortunately I don't have anymore information. It's one of the VP cars.

searcher | 21. Januar 2011

Hey dsm363 and qwk, What do you mean. You guys betray your confidence,ha. It could easily happen with a lot of Tesla's dont you think. With comparatively minimum expense as compared to ICE vehicles,huh. That was my preconception and the reason I jumped to this conclusion after a cursory glance at the newsletter. I had a 74 volvo that was still carrying a guy back and forth to work last I heard a few years ago. Solid iron block six cylinder. I over hauled engine unecessrily at about 250 thousand due to misinformation. It could easily have a million or more on it. Cylinders didn't even need rounding when I overhauled it just polished cylinders a little and put stock rings back in it. My plan was never to have to buy another car at the time{I don't like car payments}. But mechanical misinformation messed all this up when problem turned out to be torque converter and nobody I was dealing with could get this right. Apparently somebody eventually did. I tried to locate this car recently just for a backup car. In case I carried my road car to the shop or something.

qwk | 22. Januar 2011

A Tesla motor will outlast any ICE motor on the planet. It only has one moving part.

The only things you have to replace on an electric car are tires, brakes, windshield wipers, and batteries. Compare this to an ICE which needs the above PLUS clutches, spark plugs, oil filters, oil changes, fuel pumps, alternators, starters, cap, rotor, spark plug wires, air filter, fuel filter, water pump, gaskets, mufflers, exhaust....

An ev is a no brainer!

searcher | 23. Januar 2011

So qwk a million mile could very likely be a no brainer to. Now lol at that. Just kidding around with you and dsm363. Both have a good day.

BladeRunnings | 24. Januar 2011

One of the Tesla reps told me that the motor may need replacement at around 400,000 miles during an event.

qwk | 24. Januar 2011

About the only thing there is to wear out on a motor like Tesla uses are the bearings. I wouldn't imagine you would need a whole replacement motor. It would require pressing the old bearings off of the rotor and pressing new ones on.

BladeRunnings | 24. Januar 2011

That would make a lot of sense. Still much better than replacing an entire combustion engine should one last that long.

searcher | 25. Januar 2011

So if person was really into seeing if could get very high mileage then million miles probably well within reason for EV. Know some of the more expensive ICE cars could get million with about three motor swaps. The particular Volvo engine I was referring to has a lot in production and salesman told me they just don't fool with overhaul, just drop in new motor at about 400,000 miles on routine basis. Sure Mercedes and BMW would be comparable. Maybe interesting to crunch these numbers with total aprx cost of someone trying to get million miles our of ICE and someone trying to get million miles out of EV. Aprx battery cost etc. taken into account.

evjc | 25. Januar 2011
searcher | 25. Januar 2011

Thanks evjc, I did read the article, very interesting and the Tesla Roadster is a "bad" looking machine. That's bad in a good sporty sense. Looks like a road racer. This guy will be the kind to watch on the high milage thing, hope he does do the maintenance to get the high miles even though he doesn't "baby" the car. Volvo actually recomends in manuals to drive the cars kind of hard, which I seldom do. I don't get on the open road that much anymore. Guess we will have to wait and see on the high milage thing, but I wont be surprised , no more than I know about cars, that there will be some very high milage Tesla's out of people who just like to keep their cars and not make car payments. My neices husband is a general surgeon and he drives vehicles the same way until he gets everything out of car he can as he just is busy and just wants to get from point A to point B and not interested that much in checking out new stuff to buy. His interest in his work is his passion not vehicles.

Vawlkus | 26. Januar 2011

What maintenance searcher? :P
Oil changes? Nope

Timing belts? Not got them

Filters? Only 1 in the car, and that's for the A/C

Coolant? No loss systems in the battery and motor. MIGHT need replacement. Might.

Undercoating? Plastic bottom, no open metal to corrode

Transmission fluid? No transmission to need it

Brake fluid? With regen it's doubtful you'll ever need to change this, OR your brake pads.

I know you already know about some of these, it just struck me that noone on the forums has ever bothered to list the maintenance that ICEs require that EVs just plain DON'T. Maybe we should start a thread for that and see how long we can make it :)

qwk | 26. Januar 2011

It's good to change the brake fluid every 5 years as it collects moisture and corrodes parts.

The roadster has a gearbox, but you will probably have to replace the oil every 100k miles or so.

Tha maintenance is very minimal compared to an ICE.

searcher | 26. Januar 2011

Thanks Vawkus and qwk for the somewhat amazing information< Sounds like the true Ev's will be real contenders in the high mileage category. I had read comments previously about the low maintenance but you information just made it fresh. This should work out good.

BladeRunnings | 27. Januar 2011

evjc, I'll definitely keep an eye on that post. Vawlkus, I've heard that Roadster owners are supposed to have their cars serviced once a year (or every 12,000 miles) for around $600. See here: http://www.teslamotors.com/own/service

Vawlkus | 28. Januar 2011

Yeah, that's to top up the windshield washer fluid & check for programming updates.

They also download the car's history for long term modeling, but I don't really count that as maintenance; it's research :)

Timo | 28. Januar 2011

IIRC the maintenance part is the cleaning of the PEM and engine (air cooling). Cleaning the PEM requires that they remove it and then clean it, because fans are in bottom of the PEM not visible to outside.

Model S does not have that, because it uses liquid cooling for both PEM and motor.

JackB | 16. Februar 2011

I'm at 29k miles and the pack has lost about 10% of its capacity. I don't really miss it, even on long-distance road trips, because the charging rate used to slow to a crawl on the final 10%. Now it charges relatively fast to the 90% that I've got.

Jack

BladeRunnings | 17. Februar 2011

JackB, so when you charge in standard mode you still get the full 195 miles (80% of 244), correct? I would think that a 10% loss would only affect charging in range mode which should have dropped from 244 miles to about 220 miles.

searcher | 17. Februar 2011

This higher mileage stuff I am very interested in, that's why I am a Volvo nut. Will definitely be watching out for news in this area.Very interesting to see how Tesla is going to work out with the high mileage thing. If it works out well and works out well for all the future Model S, Bluestar etc. Then Tesla will have a sure fire winner and the production strategy will have proven to be excellent and quite profitable I believe. I liked the way BrianH put it the other day "Tesla is going to run before they walk". Get the quality established well and all the other pieces will fall in line.

ScottC | 02. April 2011

For another data point my Roadster has 22k miles after 28 months, and now charges up to 185 miles in std mode. This is a drop from the original 196 miles, but how this relates to actual battery capacity decrease given all of the variables involved (including the firmware change mentioned above) I can't reliably comment.

SteveU | 02. April 2011

I've seen a significant correlation between the ambient temperature when you charge your car and the ideal range after the charge. The warmer the temperature the *lower* the ideal range you end up with. (Living in California the ambient temperature is never really cold. Maybe something different happens at the other end of the temperature range.)

spw | 03. April 2011

It looks like the only jobs left will be brake guys, wiper guys, electric motor guys and body guys.

I never looked at it this way before.

spw | 03. April 2011

Doing some more research today, I see Toyota bought $50,000,000 worth of Tesla stock, and that Toyota and Testa are bonding on the development of an all electric Rav4.

To bad for America once again that the only companies with business sense are foreign.

It will be interesting to find out what this merger will mean to the country.

dsm363 | 03. April 2011

At this point, it's not a merger between Toyota and Tesla, just an investment and work agreement between the two companies.

Brian H | 06. April 2011

Scott C;
That works out to about 2.5% per year, or 2.7% per 10,000 miles, which is pretty much on track with the Tesla figures.

Brian H | 06. April 2011

Scott C;
Correction to above: extrapolates to 84% capacity after 7 years, or 76% after 100,000 miles. Somewhat better than promised.

Rod and Barbara | 06. April 2011

Assuming Scott C's Standard mode ideal range miles are taken at 100% charge, and the degradation is linear, my calculations show 83% battery capacity after 7 years. After 27 months and 18K miles with my Roadster, the battery degradation appears to be more or less linear. Data for my Roadster predict 79% battery capacity after 7 years. Both values seem to support Tesla's forecast of an 80% battery after 7 years. The 100K miles forecast are not very meaningful since, for both Scott C and me, we will have well over 7 years on our cars by then. But for completeness, Scott C's data appear to forecast 74% battery capacity and my data forecast 61% battery capacity.

Divesh | 09. April 2011

I just brought a Tesla Raodster in San Deigo, CA 2 weeks ago. I made two trips from San Deigo to Yuma, AZ which is 185mile trip. On full range charge it was 237miles first time and by the time I reach Yuma, AZ, was left with 27miles chare.
Coming back yesterday from Yuma, AZ after full charge in range mode it was 236miles and once I reached 170miles, I got a warning that, battery is almost empty, must charge ASAP. I was able to make it home though. I was traveling at 62miles an hour first 95 miles which is relavtively flat terrain and last 80miles was more hills and I was driving at 50 to 55miles/hr. The weather was quite bad in the mountains with quite a bit of snow and wind. I was quite nervous, whether I would make it to home without car being stalled on the freeway. My wife was following me in another car behind me as I was not sure how this is going to workout. I will be making these trips on a regular basis. I hope my battery won't degrade too soon. This is the first time on the forum. Hope to learn more from my Tesla friends on this forum.

Divesh

Timo | 09. April 2011

If you want to save charge drop that 62mph to 58mph. That's enough to drop your energy consumption from 261.6Wh/mile to 243.3Wh/mile. For 95 miles that makes 1833.5Wh saved which is about 7.5 miles worth of charge. Snow probably increased rolling resistance quite a bit, which also makes range a lot less than it is in ideal conditions.

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