Forums

Do Hydrogen fueled cars make sense?

Do Hydrogen fueled cars make sense?

Moving this topic out of an unrelated thread...

From jvs11560 | August 18, 2019

@NKYTA - Look up "Hydrogen House Project in Hopewell NJ" This guy makes hydrogen from free energy. Hydrogen can be made from wind, solar, hydro, or any other free source of generatin g electricityu. The fuel tanks can be made from Plant based natural resources and the fuel lines are a little different, The inner liner of which consists of a corrugated stainless-steel tube. This corrugated tube, which has special adapters at each end, is integrated into an elastomeric composite and serves as a permeation barrier and is pressure tested.

The advantages are 5 minite refueling, longer range, and no large batteries. The problem, as I see it, with EV's; are the batteries. You have to mine for the materials, they degrade, and they are more expensive. Once Hydrogen hits scale, it should be inexpensive. The electrolizers are cheap enough now, where homowners can produce their own, just like the guy in New Jersey.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

TeslaTap.com | August 18, 2019
@jvs - Ok, I'm still an H skeptic, but your facts seem wrong:

Advantages/Disadvantages -

Longer range. Nope - Every H car I've seen has less range than the Tesla S100 at 370 miles.

5-minute refueling - Questionable. At a $2M single-stall fueling station it may take 5 minutes but then takes an hour to repressurize to allow another car to fuel. If you come in right after another car, then your wait is 65 minutes. I also expect it take far longer to fuel than 5 minutes on a home system that doesn't have the 10K psi pressurization system like the $2M fueling stations. A model 3 can now get 100 miles of charging in 7 minutes at a V3 Supercharger. Not as fast, but not slow either.

No large batteries - True, but instead you have huge tanks and the fuel cell that combined take up more space than batteries in an EV like the Tesla. And still you need batteries because the fuel cell is so inefficient, it can't actually directly drive a motor.

While I don't consider mining or degradation a problem with EV/Batttiers, H cars also have significant batteries so if you consider these problem areas, they are for H cars too. H tanks also degrade and have a fixed lifetime of 15 years.

Lastly, I have no idea the cost of electrolyzers, the permits required and the space required for all this equipment. On top of that, to fuel any H car sold today, you need pressurization tanks and special compressors, all of which take power and make considerable noise. I can't imagine all this costing less than $100K to be done to appropriate safety codes. My guess is it may be impossible to get home insurance for this dangerous Rube Goldberg system too.

So you could spend $100K for home fueling, require a garage full of equipment that is prone to failure, forgo house insurance to fuel your H car that can only travel 150 miles round-trip from your home. Or you could plug in an EV to an existing outlet, and optionally use a solar roof to provide free fueling costs. And with the Supercharger network, travel just about anywhere in the US.

Sorry, I fail to see the advantage of an H car over EVs or ICE. Crazy costly, no long-distance travel, requires designing and building your own home fueling station, fueling costs are significantly higher than electricity in most (all?) areas. The cars are underpowered and highly subsided. No one makes H cars in volume, so your choices are very limited if you are even allowed to buy one in your area.

hammer @OR-US | 18. August 2019

Makes no sense for personal transport. Maybe for fleet, trucking, mass transit where the storage infrastructure cost can be absorbed.
https://live.staticflickr.com/5615/31083351942_a8934a3d88_b.jpg

TeslaTap.com | 18. August 2019

@hammer - Thanks for the graphic showing how inefficient Hydrogen cars are compared with EVs!

I don't see how it makes sense in any vehicle. For trucks and mass transit, the reduced costs of EV fueling, maintenance, and initial cost should make EVs a slam dunk. The hydrogen refining process currently used generates quite a bit of pollution. All the trucks that haul hydrogen to fueling stations burn diesel adding even more pollution. Hydrogen vehicles - a poor idea that makes no sense.

kerryglittle | 18. August 2019

Then we could all be driving Hydrogen bombs on the road. Might be fun. LOL.

Silver2K | 18. August 2019
ST70 | 18. August 2019

No

Mathew98 | 19. August 2019

It's a complete fool's gold. Some amateur kept posting a link to a NJ man building his own hydrogen conversion kit in his garage. Yeah, it's possible to be green and self sustaining, but at what cost?

Only a dang fool would believe in spending a whopping $3.5 million for this setup. Of course the man only put up a $100K of his own money, but where did the other $3.4 M come from?

It only takes one errand discarded cigarette butt to cause a massive explosion around that garage.

Mathew98 | 19. August 2019

BTW, $3.5M can buy you 99 Model 3's, base version of course, and a sh!t ton of supercharging.

barrykmd | 19. August 2019

Introducing the new Toyota Hindenburg...

TeslaTap.com | 19. August 2019

@Silver2K - Good reference! For those watching the video, you can go to the 10:07 minute mark to hear Elon's view on Hydrogen.

Anthony J. Parisio | 19. August 2019

No no no no no no no!!! For all the above reasons and still many more! The energy losses of converting a solar energy into sunlight then using it to do the electrolysis on the water or whatever of the material you’re using are huge! Taking the sunlight turning it into electricity and putting in the battery is the most efficient way to go. By the way did anybody say it explodes! It explodes! It really really explodes like nothing else exclamation

SamO | 19. August 2019

It’s the lidar of energy transportation. A crutch or cul de sac.

Azathoth | 19. August 2019

For the more mathematically inclined, here's another video detailing differences in energy efficiency between BEV and HFC vehicles. Pretty much a slam dunk.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f7MzFfuNOtY

TeslaTap.com | 19. August 2019

@Azathoth - Good find. Wow, Hydrogen costs 8 times the price of electricity per mile (Model 3 vs Toyota Mirai) using the cheapest Hydrogen extraction process, which generates quite a bit of pollution. The cost difference may double if you use electrolysis. I knew it was bad but never thought this awful. Costs may be mare than gasoline.

Funny that the short Supercharger segment (about 2 seconds) is our local Mountain View Supercharger.

Earl and Nagin ... | 20. August 2019

All of this electrolysis stuff to create H2 is moot. The most economical way to produce H2 is by putting energy into natural gas (CH4) to strip the Carbon from it, leaving H2, then combining the residual Carbon (C) with Oxygen (O) from the atmosphere as CO2. This is, therefore, how most H2 is produced.
Now what could be wrong with that?
Does it make sense why H2 is being promoted by so many forces?

Azathoth | 20. August 2019

@Earl and Nagin:

"... then combining the residual Carbon (C) with Oxygen (O) from the atmosphere as CO2." << THIS

Or maybe you were being sarcastic? ;-)

Earl and Nagin ... | 20. August 2019

@Axathoth,
highly sarcastic ;-)
quite cynical as well.

johncrab | 20. August 2019

A former neighbour bought a hydrogen "kit" for his ICE car thinking he could split water molecules and help power his car. No change in performance or mileage, but he did have it on a switch to an always live circuit. He stopped to visit a friend one day and left it on. The air cleaner assembly filled with hydrogen and when he hit the starter he blew the top off his engine and took out the airflow meter. So $750 for the kit and $2800 in repairs. I drove him to pick up his repaired Ford in my Model S and I did not laugh once, but that was difficult.

Earl and Nagin ... | 20. August 2019

@johncrab,
That sounds like the old 'Browns gas' notion for improving mpg on ICE vehicles that was rampant on the internet a few years ago. That's interesting to hear about someone who actually tried it.

redacted | 20. August 2019

@OP please don't use the term "Free energy" as it is a synonym for "bad science scam." Maybe "solar electricity" would be better.

Mike83 | 20. August 2019

Didn't Laurel and Hardy have a gas pill? You just filled your gas tank with water and added the PILL.

"Stan and Ollie are two itinerant musicians (“The Original Zoot Suit Band”) conned into aiding con artist Chester Wright into hawking “instant gas pills”. The scam gets uncovered in the small town of Midville, where Chester accidentally steals pretty young Susan’s purse. Since he’s smitten with her, he returns it, and discovers Susan is being swindled by some gangland goons. The con plays a con on these cons, aided by Stan and Ollie. Stan dresses in drag as Susan’s aunt, and after some complications, the gangsters are rounded up, Chester and Susan get together, and everything’s hunky dory."

The above quote from:
https://crackedrearviewer.wordpress.com/2016/05/12/another-fine-mess-lau...

TeslaTap.com | 20. August 2019

@redacted - Agree with free energy is often associated with a scam :) I didn't use the term myself, but was in the text @jvs11560 used praising Hydrogen that I included in my first post.

johncrab | 20. August 2019

@ Earl and Nagin - I can't remember the name but it was a similar concept to Brown's Gas. That had a purpose but this adaptation was pure hokum. I just wish I had been there when the intake section of his engine blew up.

geo.teepe | 20. August 2019

If to many H fueled vehicles emit water vapor, in dense traffic and certain dew point conditions
they would cause fog so dense, everything would come to halt.
Water vapor is a pollutant
In wintry conditions ice could form on roadways.

TranzNDance | 20. August 2019

Tesla gives my car free energy.

jvs11560 | 20. August 2019
hammer @OR-US | 20. August 2019

"Great Article"??? That provided zero new information.

Mathew98 | 20. August 2019

What did ya expect from a troll who treasures his gas guzzling SUV's?

TeslaTap.com | 21. August 2019

From the article on the range: "This exceeds the majority of EVs, with the exception of Teslas."

Ok, nothing new. Be aware of the mileage numbers in that article are the wildly inflated Euro numbers that no one can achieve. They offer the same tired line about 5-minute refueling, leaving out that it may take an hour to find a fueling station and if you arrive after someone just fueled, be prepared to wait another hour. No thanks.