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Grid Interactive

If the purpose of Tesla is to accelerate the transition to sustainable transport, then its purpose depends on the utility industry transitioning to renewable energy.

Renewable energy cannot supply the grid fully without storage.

People will buy more model 3's than Power walls.

The model 3 should be grid interactive. (for both charging and discharging) It has an inverter - how hard to make it output to the grid? (well, almost no one has 3-phase at their homes). Or perhaps just a DC output made available to an existing inverter suffice.

This would make the transition possible, while right now, it's just a dream waiting for new technology to arrive.

Nic727 | 03. April 2016

I think they are preparing a new Powerwall, but we still don't know how it look and work.

Red Sage ca us | 04. April 2016

Tesla Motors has no interest in V2H (Vehicle to Home) or V2G (Vehicle to Grid) systems.

SUN 2 DRV | 04. April 2016

Fromnewark: Your initial thoughts are right on, but it's a big leap to use a Model 3 to implement that. Yes energy storage is the holy grail to successfully integrating large amounts of renewable energy. But why should the battery storage system have leather seats, four big rubber tires and a big panoramic roof attached to it?

With conflicting interests of the owner (long warranty), the manufacturer ( low risk) the battery manufacturer (low costs) the V2G use case is not really a good answer. Sending energy back to the grid means adding stress and charging cycles for a purpose completely out of the control of the manufacturer. Should Tesla really offer an 8 year unlimited battery warranty if you're going to deep cycle the battery every day doing energy arbitrage?

I've always been highly skeptical of V2G (two way energy flow) , but I do think that V1G (Utility coordinated SmartCharging ie one way energy flow) offers great benefits to both the owner and the utility without increasing battery stress nor adding an extra charge cycles. In V1G the battery charging will be timed to complete by the time the user specifies, but the utility and spread that charging over the night in a way that provides a benefit to the grid. Load shifting and Grid balancing implemented via SmartCharging hold great value and might warrant as much as $150 per month to the car owner.

SUN 2 DRV | 04. April 2016

and -> can

Fromnewark | 05. April 2016

I agree, it would be leap, but isn't that way tesla does?

In answer to your first question: because a car sits idle for 90% of the day. It might as well contribute to society. Also, because the electric car contributes to co2 emissions. Although less so than a gas car. So to actually fix the problem, it needs to work with the grid, it should interact with the grid.

I don't think you would need to deep cycle the battery considering its size. I recall some early tesla owners bricking their batteries from lack of use. So this would not necessarily be a problem.

Thanks for the info on V1G which I looked up and found some working ideas in Caiso, ercot, and PJM. Better V1G than VnoG.

Fromnewark | 05. April 2016

I agree, it would be leap, but isn't that way tesla does?

In answer to your first question: because a car sits idle for 90% of the day. It might as well contribute to society. Also, because the electric car contributes to co2 emissions. Although less so than a gas car. So to actually fix the problem, it needs to work with the grid, it should interact with the grid.

I don't think you would need to deep cycle the battery considering its size. I recall some early tesla owners bricking their batteries from lack of use. So this would not necessarily be a problem.

Thanks for the info on V1G which I looked up and found some working ideas in Caiso, ercot, and PJM. Better V1G than VnoG.

Brian33 | 25. Mai 2016

Fromnewark: This is a great idea and is a way to accelerate the transition to sustainable transport. V1G is a great form of direct load control for utilities but V2G allows them to peak shave not just load shift. V2B is also a great way to restore electricity supply to a building after a storm.

I have solar panels, a Model S and a Model 3 reservation. I’m interested in a powerWall but my utility offers net metering and it’s better for the utility if I share my generation with my neighbors. It’s more efficient use of the electricity produced until we create a duck curve shape in the utilities load. At that point my utility will reduce the value of net metering and I’ll become more interested in the powerWall.

Today a Model 3 with V2G and V2B sounds perfect for helping my utility reduce peak costs and helping me keeping the lights on after a storm.

Recently I helped my local school system receive an Electric School Bus Grant from the state. This will hopefully be the first step toward a fleet of 30 EV school buses years from now. The diesel burned in these school buses account for 8% of all energy used in the municipal sector of our town. Ruffly 80,000 gallons a year. Reducing that fuel cost by purchasing cheaper electricity is good…also getting paid for reducing Capacity costs is great.

MA DOER School Buses with V2G
http://www.mass.gov/eea/pr-2016/electric-school-bus-grants-to-four-schoo...

Electric School Buses - CGI America 2014
https://youtu.be/zoZ_ikmEKIk

By the way Nissan is doing V2G today. So Tesla is starting to fall behind.

Nissan Leaf
https://youtu.be/3pNbKfXVIeU

Plea to Tesla - Please build in the hardware to do V1G, V2G and V2B so when electrical utilities markets are ready to start utilizing this technology Model 3 owners will be ready too. Thank you

Linemanap | 25. Mai 2016

People will start doing this on thier own soon enough. Just look how people modd out thier computers motorcycles and cars i bet many will start doing things with thier teslas that will truly blow minds

TeslaTap.com | 26. Mai 2016

@Linemanap - as someone who had done many modification to my Model S (http://teslatap.com/modifications/) working with with low-current 5/12v in a modified PC or car is low risk. For V2G it's quite another thing to deal with 400v at hundreds of amps. Easy to be lethal even if you know what you're doing.

@Brian33 - Leaf V2G is only in testing. You can't buy it today (and there is no price stated for it yet).

The good news is with external hardware and a trivial software change, Tesla could offer V2G abilities with every Model S/X already produced. No idea how much that might cost, but it would not be be cheap. $5+K would seem likely if ever offered.

For Tesla to implement V2G there are some thorny non-technical issues. If the battery is fully charged/discharged 10 times a day fro V2G service and the battery fails after 3 years, is Tesla on the hook for the warranty? Since Superchargers are free, what prevents someone from going daily to a Supercharger, and going home and powering the home from the car? This could be very costly for Tesla.

Linemanap | 26. Mai 2016

Thats funny i work with 14400 volts all the time risk is manageable people will always find a way to kill themselves. Most of the people posting seem to have a lot technical skill so like i said its only a matter of time.

Linemanap | 26. Mai 2016

Do a utube search for tesla powerwall and you'll see what I mean it's already starting to take off and I don't think any of these mad scientists are worried about 400 volts they make gloves and other ppe for that.

SUN 2 DRV | 26. Mai 2016

V2G does NOTHING to help keep your lights on after a storm. You need V2H for than and it's a completely different use case, although SOME of the hardware is similar. Basically V2H means you need a way to disconnect at least some portion of your house from the gird and supply that portion with power from your car. V2G doesn't inherently include any way to disconnect your house from the grid because the assumption is that the grid is already UP and your battery is just helping out a little bit. If the grid is down V2G won't help you or your neighbors houses.

TeslaTap.com | 26. Mai 2016

@joehuber - I should have lumped V2G together with V2H (at least as far as the car's battery is concerned). Thanks for making it clearer.

@Linemanap - I suspect you have a bit of training and proper gear to work with 14400 volts! I'm impressed. I only worry that people with minimal understanding of electricity would cut into the Tesla DC high voltage lines and using lamp cord, connect it to the AC power mains thinking it might do V2G/V2H. Bad on so many levels. Not something even an advanced DIYer should do.

PV_Dave @US-PA | 31. Mai 2016

Tesla's SuperCharger business model (unlimited electricity for life) is incompatible with V2G/V2H bi-directional transfer.

What would be helpful is for utilities to pay us to allow them a degree of control over our charging, as a form of load management... similar to how they can cycle enrolled air conditioner compressors during times of peak load. So you'd say "I need an 80% charge between now and 7am tomorrow", and they'd get to pick the best time for you pull the electrons, and compensate you for the flexibility.

Since Tesla already has a network of connected vehicles, they could act as the intermediary, where the grids submit load reduction/ramp-up bids centrally and Tesla fulfills the "orders" with available enrolled vehicles in the specified grid's geography. Tesla keeps part of the load management fee, and passes part on to the vehicle owner.

But here in PECO territory, we can't even get them to roll out time of use rates, even though they already have the digital meters to support it, and are collecting and reporting on hourly use!

Brian33 | 08. Juni 2016

@PV_Dave @US-PA - The managed charging by the utility is called direct load control (utility turning on or off a device in the home) or SmartCharging / V1G for cars (utility and manage the operation of a device in the home).

@TeslaTap.com - Yes, you can't purchase the V2G LEAF in the US, only a few in Europe can. My point was that Tesla is doing nothing in this area and Nissan is. Tesla could be missing a big opportunity to be a leader here. Like over the air updates and supercharges they could add value to their cars that other manufactures will struggle to match.

@ Lineman - I agree with TeslaTap.com, modd your Tesla anyway you like but the high voltage system would be very dangerous. For every genius that could build a great V2G modd there are 100 idiots that think they can. Best to have the experts (Tesla Engineers) work on this.

All great comments. Thanks

dave.m.mcdonough | 08. Juni 2016

Personally I think I would rather just have the car stay topped off.
I'd be open to the idea if it were my own house producing solar and using the energy.
I do feel that distributed solar grid is the way to go for bulk use during the day. Perhaps when we get there it will make sense for cities to construct large scale energy storage to use for night energy, hot salt or something.

Badbot | 08. Juni 2016

100 idiots sounds WAY low to me.

bb0tin | 09. Juni 2016

A proposal which could work has been discussed recently in this thread
https://forums.teslamotors.com/forum/forums/tesla-car-connected-directly...

Red Sage ca us | 09. Juni 2016

Just in case I hadn't mentioned it already: Tesla Motors has no interest in V2H (Vehicle to Home) or V2G (Vehicle to Grid) systems.

I grew up in a place where power failures due to inclement weather, tornadoes and flash floods, were rather common. I'd rather keep the power in the car, so that I could drive somewhere else in an emergency.

bb0tin | 09. Juni 2016

@Red Sage
Please read the link I posted above your post.
I am unaware of Tesla ever saying they have no interest in Vehicle to Powerwall. If you have something where they do say that then I would be interested. Note that my proposal is specifically not V2G.

As for keeping the power in your car, you have the choice. This will either be software controlled or you just unplug the car. At 2kW the car would take about 2 days to go flat. Also, you can drive somewhere else to recharge the car. Power outages are usually local, so you can keep both your house and car running quite OK during an extended local power outage.

Linemanap | 11. Juni 2016

I could see v2h working very well as a backup for power outages. Most utilities see less then 120 minutes of downtime per customer per year so i think a candle and flashlight will work for most people but i think tesla would rather sell you a powerwall

bb0tin | 11. Juni 2016

@Linemanap
A proposal which addresses your points has been discussed recently in this thread
https://forums.teslamotors.com/forum/forums/tesla-car-connected-directly...

bb0tin | 12. Juni 2016

@MitchP85D
SkepticalScience, as you have been repeatedly informed, wither links to the source scientific material, or you can easily find it yourself. It does not matter what you think of SkepticalScience, because you can verify what they say for yourself. Your argument is a phony one.

bb0tin | 12. Juni 2016

That last post somehow onto onto the wrong thread.
I blame the lack of coffee in the morning.

lolachampcar | 12. Juni 2016

Tesla uses different battery tech for their fixed storage; one more comparable with higher cycle rates.
Tesla warranties the MS battery.

I add those two things up and there is no way I would let a utility cycle a MS battery. It simply makes no sense for Tesla.

As for owners modding and doing it anyway, it would be cheaper to buy fixed storage from Tesla then to replace your battery on your own nickle or try to sell your car without a power train warranty :)

bb0tin | 12. Juni 2016

@lolachampcar
I addressed your concerns in this thread and shpowed why it is in Tesla's best interests
https://forums.teslamotors.com/forum/forums/tesla-car-connected-directly

SUN 2 DRV | 12. Juni 2016

Lola: +1

bb0tin: I get 404 errors from all those links....

bb0tin | 12. Juni 2016
SUN 2 DRV | 13. Juni 2016

bb0tin: Thanks for the updated link. I think you're greatly simplifying critically important issues.

I didn't see where you described how you'd disconnect your house from the grid so that your local inverter could power your house? Because of course your system certainly isn't going to be able to power up your whole neighborhood.

And most inverters are designed to operate ONLY when the grid is up, as a safety requirement to not electrocute people working on the downed grid.

So to get your inverter to produce power you both have to disconnect it from the grid AND provide an alternate source of 60 Hz AC for it to sync to. (Of course you could have originally bought a more expensive inverter that supports Islanding, but most solar and energy arbitrage installations don't)

And what controls the charge rate from the car's battery to the Powerwall? Are you assuming that the same charge controller that manages the solar input (peak tracking etc) would work effectively with a fixed voltage battery? Seems like there's a big question here...

So yes I agree that V2H could be useful in some limited circumstances like a grid outage, but creating a safe and simple to use system is no where as simple and cheap as you seem to imply.

bb0tin | 13. Juni 2016

@joehuber
You said "I didn't see where you described how you'd disconnect your house from the grid so that your local inverter could power your house?" and "And most inverters are designed to operate ONLY when the grid is up".
This is outside the scope of Tesla. It is handled by the DC-AC inverter and AC system. What you are describing is called 'islanding' and is already done.

You said "And what controls the charge rate from the car's battery to the Powerwall?"
Either the car or the Powerwall.
The car is already controlling the rate of power into the car.

You said "So yes I agree that V2H could be useful in some limited circumstances like a grid outage, but creating a safe and simple to use system is no where as simple and cheap as you seem to imply."
I believe it is for the reasons given. It is not 'limited circumstanmces". Everybody who has a Tesla and a Powerwall will benefit. I currently export more power than I import. In summer I peak at over 40kWh exported, and 5-10kWh imported per day. With this system I would import 0 kWh. A friend has several power cuts per year. He is specifically installing solar and a Powerwall to cater for the outages. He has a deposit on a Model 3. He will also benefit from this system. The cost of what I am suggesting is minimal compared to the cost of a Tesla and Powerwall. Depending on your utility it will easily pay for itself in a few years, as well as giving you a backup power supply.

Nexxus | 14. Juni 2016

As I said in the other thread and Red Sage has said, Tesla isn't interested in V2H or V2G. Elon said this in one of the quarterly calls sometime in the last year or two. Do your homework and go find it. Elon said it, so it's not going to happen, unless he leaves the company and someone else thinks this stupid idea has merit. You want to drive your EV, charge and drive it. You want to power your home, get a Powerwall or two. That is why Tesla won't do this. They already have separate solutions to each so all your bloviating about it, is immaterial and won't make it come about.

bb0tin | 14. Juni 2016

Go_Peddle_4_me
I have more than once specified why this is not V2H or V2G.
I have even directly addressed the reasons that Tesla have given for not doing V2G
I am well aware of their reasons, and have specified that I AGREE WITH THEM.
But the proposal I put forward DOES NOT HAVE these issues.
I do not know why you feel it is necessary to post your insulting post on two threads, when it appears you do not grasp what the proposal actually is.

Nexxus | 15. Juni 2016

@bb0tin,

I fully grasp what your proposal is, and as Elon said, it's stupid and Tesla won't be doing it. If you don't like his message, take it up with him.

bb0tin | 15. Juni 2016

@Go_Peddle_4_me
No, you do not grasp the proposal, or you would not have repeated your statement.
Elon has never said that he thinks the proposal is stupid.
As far as I am aware, Elon, JB or Tesla have never addressed what the proposal is about.
If you have evidence to the contrary then produce it.

PV_Dave @US-PA | 15. Juni 2016

@bb0tin: I don't necessarily agree with your position on grid connection, because I think you're only looking at a subset of otherwise valid use cases. But if we pretend that the connected PowerWall could only be used in an off-grid configuration (perhaps with a special PowerWall model intended for this purpose), there's still a show-stopper which has been mentioned before but you continue to ignore.

Your proposal would seem to allow for power drawn from a SuperCharger to be used to power home devices which are connected to the off-grid PowerWall that the car would be providing energy to. This is inconsistent with the financial model of unlimited SuperCharging use, which assumes that the SuperCharger energy will only be used by the vehicles that draw from the SuperCharger, and not passed on to other applications.

You keep promoting your idea as if this wasn't a problem, but Tesla is not interested in powering your off-grid house. You'd need to not only have a "no grid tie" PowerWall and a "no SuperCharger enabled" car, but the two devices would need to confirm each others' status before allowing power transfer. Given that SuperCharging is Tesla's biggest differentiator vs. upcoming fully electric vehicles, and SuperCharging is standard on all cars currently being delivered today, why would they want to invest in R&D that only applies to cars which cannot SuperCharge? Just doesn't make any business sense.

bb0tin | 15. Juni 2016

@PV_Dave
You said "there's still a show-stopper which has been mentioned before but you continue to ignore." and "Your proposal would seem to allow for power drawn from a SuperCharger to be used to power home devices " and "You keep promoting your idea as if this wasn't a problem" etc
I did not ignore these issues.
I specifically addressed them in my posts on the link provided.
If you read my posts you will see why they are not an issue.

Nexxus | 16. Juni 2016

@bb0tin,

You are both naïve and ignorant. Elon has said the idea of using your car to run your house is like using fuel cells to run your car. Stupid!

lolachampcar | 16. Juni 2016

And no, we are not going to read your other thread.

bb0tin | 16. Juni 2016

@Go_Peddle_4_me
You do not grasp my proposal.
Please read and understand it.
The reasons Elon has given for not doing V2G have been addressed, and do not apply to the proposal.

bb0tin | 16. Juni 2016

@lolachampcar
What you do, is up to you.
What others do, is not up to you.
Perhaps you should have written "And no, I am not going to read your other thread."

lolachampcar | 16. Juni 2016

:)

PV_Dave @US-PA | 16. Juni 2016

@bb0tin: You're right, @lolachampcar doesn't speak for all of us. Just most of us.

Per SuperCharging power going to your house, you said:

"Tesla will know if people are doing that. Supercharging is free for travel, not for stationary storage. If people abuse the system then Tesla can limit the capacity which can go from the car to the Powerwall. There is nothing preventing them doing that, as far as I know, either legally or ethically."

It seems that Tesla has followed your suggestion after all. They have limited the capacity which can go from the car to the Powerwall. They limited it to zero, which is a level that prevents abuse entirely instead of reacting to it.

Problem solved!

bb0tin | 16. Juni 2016

@PV_Dave
You said "Just most of us."
You have no idea if it is most of the readers.
Hopefully most readers prefer not to deliberately remain ignorant before commenting.

You said "They limited it to zero, which is a level that prevents abuse entirely instead of reacting to it."
I do not understand your desire to be both ignorant and sarcastic. You could put forward valid and reasoned arguments and provide something of merit on this forum. If Tesla does implement a system like the proposal, I wonder if are you going to be as sarcastic towards Tesla.

PV_Dave @US-PA | 17. Juni 2016

@bb0tin: If Tesla ever implements a feature allowing their vehicles to send power directly to a PowerWall to recharge it, then I will owe you an apology for my sarcasm.

You've already agreed with Tesla's argument against doing so in a grid connected manner, right? So you're arguing about an off-grid application. Do you have a sense of how many current Tesla owners are off-grid? I'm quite confident that it's a very small percentage of the total sales thus far, and not nearly enough of a potential market in the near term to justify R&D even if Tesla had no objections to the fundamentals of the proposal.

Talk to us again when you have evidence that more than 1% of the owners with the financial resources to purchase a new Tesla are already off-grid. Until then, I'm done with this discussion.

bb0tin | 17. Juni 2016

@PV_Dave
Unless someone directly addresses a post to myself, or directly responds to a post of mine, I will no longer be posting. Since you did, I will respond.
You said "So you're arguing about an off-grid application."
No I am not. I even described how I would use it myself, with figures, in a non off-grid application. The proposal applies to anyone with a Tesla car and Powerwall.
If you wish to continue the discussion you can email be privately at ob.naughtin@gmail.com

bb0tin | 17. Juni 2016
bryan.whitton | 19. Juni 2016

I am in the solar industry and have been at several discussions about V2G and I will never participate in any V2G act with any car of mine. I would never compromise my mobility for the grid. I have solar and will soon have batteries to maximize self consumption. I don't really care about cost within reason but I desire to have my power consumed by me.
If I was off grid I would be willing to use my car in an emergency for my own use to get my household through a tough situation but never to support the grid.

Red Sage ca us | 20. Juni 2016

bryan.whitton: +21! Precisely. That is about how I see it as well. My power should be mine to use as I see fit. The GRID exists to support the Government, Commerce, and Industry. Residences are below even a secondary concern for electric utilities.

Badbot | 20. Juni 2016

I would not use my car to power the house unless the grid was down so long the freezer defrosted and then just to keep the food safe.

topher | 21. Juni 2016

Living in a place that gets week long power outages, I have already done V2H. And it can be a lifesaver, literally.