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Cost of not installing HUD interface

Cost of not installing HUD interface

I enjoy the Model 3 interior design. I sat in the Model 3.

I still believe the HUD could add great value.

How much would it be for Tesla to produce car witn the interface or complete HUD folks? Please charge 100% mark up if that is the problem, but please give what many customers want.

Am I alone on this?

fredjackie | 28. September 2017

I am one person that doesn't believe a HUD is required. Although, If I have a choice of a HUD, I would prefer a HUD and it would be a factor in my choice of which EV to buy.

I am a supporter of the minimalist dash. I would prefer to have an actual screen that could be auto hidden and unhidden in the dash with a HUD display as my primary display.

I understand Tesla has its plate full and don't see them adding a HUD option until competitor EV vehicles provide a HUD that helps draw customers away from a Tesla.

Ninefiveone | 28. September 2017

I’ll go on record as betting that Tesla will never offer a HUD.

eeb9 | 29. September 2017

@ReD - you said:
"I strongly suspect this will be answered in a manner that I can easily shoot down... I already did in another conversation that was slightly different. But I would love to know why those who have said that believe it to be true. What exactly convinced you that having a HUD was inherently 'safer' than not having one and led you to contend a HUD should be standard issue?

Also, are the HUD systems you have used capable of overcoming the issues that plagued them in their infancy of automotive applications? Fading in direct sunlight, or disappearing when polarized glasses ar ed worn, for instance."

To answer your first question, if you agree that reading texts, sending texts, dialing a phone and similar activities are legitimate causes of driver distraction and are a safety issue worthy of Legislative controls (that is, you can be ticketed for performing them) then the answer should be self-evident.

From a safety standpoint, *anything* that requires the driver to look away from the road ahead causes distraction. We've come to accept that the second or so needed to check side and rear-view mirrors is within bounds, but anything longer than that is a problem. At freeways speeds a LOT can happen in 2 seconds. The time required for the driver to look away, shift focus, perform a task, look back at the road, shift focus again and re-orient themselves to anything that may have changed in the interim creates a huge window of vulnerability. The Military recognized this DECADES AGO and HUDs have been a standard on military aircraft for as long as the technology has been available.

A (well-integrated) HUD is a safety feature in that is provides all the information a driver may need without ever requiring them to look away from the road. It goes a long way towards eliminating accidents caused by distracted drivers (and remember, just because we've come to agreee as a society that "just a second or two" of distraction is *acceptable* as a matter of practical nessessity, that does not actually mean that it is actually safe)

It is *also* a very handy convenience feature in that it can overlay map/Nav/traffic/infotainment information directly in the driver's field of view.

Add in voice commands and/or good integration with the steering wheel buttons and the HUD can be the only display the driver ever needs.

Now to the tech. Yes, HUDs have long since gone past the limits of the early automotive units you described. My only advise here is that you go and check one out. Drive the same car both with and without a HUD so you can experience the difference in an apples-to-apples environment. As I've said over and over, the difference is *startling*

Sufficiently startling that after experiencing it, I swore I would never again buy a new car without one. It's a real stretch for me to accept that I'm going to have to do just that with the Model 3.

I get that their initial push is FSD, which would eliminate the need for any enhanced controls or features oriented to a human driver. That said, I hope/believe that they'll recognize that FSD is not going to be "all things to all people" within the design life of the Model 3 and will at some point catch up with their peers in terms of driver information displays.

Carl Thompson | 29. September 2017

@eeb9

Well stated.

ReD eXiLe ms us | 29. September 2017

eeb9: OK. So the sole point of 'safety' you speak of is 'distracted driving' as a concern. ~*sigh*~ Sorry, but that doesn't do the trick for me as an argument that HUD should be standard on all vehicles. It would certainly be nice. But I tend to use myself and my own abilities as a measuring stick for the world around me.

Growing up, teachers in class were always chastising me about 'paying attention'. Mostly because they wanted me to be looking up, directly at them, all the time. They presumed if I was not doing that, I must be 'distracted' or 'unfocused'. No. I heard everything they said and knew everything about the subject at hand. I was able to 'pay attention' to them while simultaneously reading a science fiction book, or comic book, or drawing, or doing homework for another class. And I proved it by answering their pointed 'pop quiz' questions that were designed to prove I wasn't 'paying attention' properly. Every time. Plus, I aced their classes, without cheating.

So, yeah, I could probably do a whole bunch of things simultaneously while driving. But I don't. Because this is something that I do focus my attention on, due to the fact that driving is among the most joyful things I do in life. Also, after years in Los Angeles being surrounded by people in traffic who apparently all hate driving and are always looking for an opportunity to STOP instead of GO, people who would prefer to eat, or smoke, or drink, or apply makeup, or wrangle children in the back seat, or do their toe nails & finger nails, or talk on the phone, or sing along to the radio with their eyes closed, or shave, or change clothes -- anything at all but actually drive their cars -- I figure it is prudent to be a sort of role model. I don't use the phone, I don't browse the web, I don't text while driving. If I must speak to someone, I find a safe spot to park, when not using Bluetooth connectivity in the car for received calls.

I have a very wide angle of vision, so I set my mirrors so that I can see all three at once from the driver's seat. I have full mobility, so I use the S.M.O.G. (Signal, Mirror, Over-the-shoulder, Go!) Method when changing lanes to maintain safety. So it astounds me that people claim an inability to turn their head, or focus their eyesight on dials, but a necessity to drive. Usually, I check the speedometer to confirm I am still driving the speed I chose to drive at, and I am. Having a numerical display if speed just to the right of the knuckles on my right hand would not be 'distracting' at all.

Every HUD I have seen in any car has duplicated data shown elsewhere. I would love to have a full screen display that did the 'augmented reality' thing, because that would be a proper enhancement to the driving experience. Without fail, whenever going somewhere new, the one street I'm looking for is the one without signage. Fun thing is, once that comes, people will complain it is 'too distracting' and is therefore 'unsafe'.

So, what I'm saying is not that HUD is inherently bad in any way. I'm just saying there is no need to replace the binnacle driving motif with a HUD. The cabin design of the Model 3 us neither distracting nor unsafe due to the absence of a binnacle or HUD.

mos6507 | 29. September 2017

[doesn't seem to be a huge demand item considering very few cars offer the option.]

Go look at the Tesla Model 3 discussion outside of this forum. There's a lot of wailing and gnashing of teeth over the dashboard. They are asking for a HUD because it's the easiest way to reconcile the streamlined appearance of the dash with a speedo within line of sight. It's the line of sight that people need more than the HUD per se.

Yodrak. | 29. September 2017

After reading the posts of the HUD supporters the only safety benefit I see is being able to see their speed by simply re-focusing their eyes rather than looking down or right and re-focusing. I agree, possibly a minor safety enhancement, but not much. If traffic is heavy 'go with the flow', if traffic is light set your cruise control.

What else besides speed do people want to see in a HUD that doesn't require them to take their eyes off the road and a hand off the wheel to do anything about?

RedShift | 29. September 2017

@ReD

"But I tend to use myself and my own abilities as a measuring stick for the world around me."

But Tesla cannot afford to do that.

Looking away, just to see what speed you are doing, which happens to be a rather frequent operation is inherently unsafe for drivers not blessed with the abilities you possess. And the reason we are asking for a HUD is because Tesla cannot possibly integrate a regular instrument cluster now. Much more expensive, and is it stands, it looks like Tesla cannot even afford to put in a HUD.

I chide Pungoteague Dave for trying to be the 'non- fanboy'. The 3 forum is making me realize he might be on to something.

ybbor | 29. September 2017

In addition to the speed, the nature of Tesla's steering wheel buttons require attention.

On a normal car, the right up/down button for instance only ever does one thing, volume. On the Tesla, it could be changing the volume, telescoping the steering column, adjusting the right side mirror, adjusting the hvac blower speed, adjusting the EAP distance or EAP speed above limit and who know what else. You're going to need to look down at the center screen to see what it's doing or to change what it's doing. Seems much safer to have that in your immediate field of view so you can see what you're doing, and still keep the road in your field of view.

eeb9 | 29. September 2017

@ReD - i humbly acknowledge that you have special powers not available to the normal run of humanity

So I understand that, for you, a HUD is superfluous

For the rest of us normal humans, it's a nice enhancement, and does, in fact, improve safety at the margins.

A necessity? Nah - as shown by the number of vehicles safely operated every day without one.

I put it in the same category as seat belts. Most people will never actually *need* a seat belt. You never need it until you need it. And then, when you *do* need it, you're really grateful to have it.

Yodrak. | 29. September 2017

I agree that a HUD might help to see what the steering wheel buttons are doing, but it won't help to change what they're doing.

"You're going to need to look down at the center screen to see what it's doing or to change what it's doing."

Yodrak. | 29. September 2017

I do not. A HUD may help make one's own driving marginally safer, but it won't protect you from trouble caused by others on the road with you. Seat belts help protect you from the bad actions of both other drivers and yourself.

"I put it in the same category as seat belts."

ebiggs | 29. September 2017

It's crazy to suggest a HUD should be standard safety equipment without facts. We can study the collision records of cars with or without HUDS, control for other variables, and come up with a factual determination as to whether or not HUDs should be standard safety equipment. But I for one hope this doesn't happen, because if it did it would probably place a huge regulatory burden on HUDs - i.e. to ensure that they conform to a rigid safety standard (i.e. don't put up any information that would actually compete for your attention) because I think any safety benefits from HUDs are negligible at best, and what I like about them is not a debatable safety benefit but that it's just a really great way to do a screen in a car.

For example, in my BMW, all the information in the HUD is repetitive (not that it needs to be, it's this way because they want to sell cars without HUDs) but none the less, I without fail will always choose to get information from the HUD than any other place every time... because it's more convenient to have it right there. The speedometer in my binnacle is never looked at... the turn by turn navigation information in my LCD display is never looked at, why would it be when I have the same information right there overlaying the road? It's enough for it to be a luxury feature, it doesn't need to be demonstrably safer, although, it does stand to reason that there must be some negligible safety benefit even if it isn't statically significant.

This argument that Tesla should focus first on a FSD experience is a pretty spurious one... Recall that the base model does not FSD, thus it is first and foremost a driver's car. It has a lot of hybrid elements to being both a driver's car and an FSD car, for sure, and thus it must make some compromises to be such, but eliminating a HUD is not a necessary compromise.

RedShift | 29. September 2017

If there was an instrument cluster, the safety enhancement of a HUD would be negligible, yes.

In the absence of one, it becomes plumb necessary.

Also, as someone mentioned - whenever you change anything using the scroll wheels, you need to look away. I current don't do that in my Model S.

And anyway, whatever happened to the dogma of creating the SAFEST car?

God you folks are unbelievable.

carlk | 29. September 2017

@Yodrak Yes the "safety" justification is just a red herring. Besides that you almost always follow the traffic flow checking the speed is never that hard a thing to do compares to many other things you do in a car that you actually take your eyes way off the road.

carlk | 29. September 2017

@RedShift Oh pleeze HUD is nice (for some) to have but for safety? Give me a break!

RedShift | 29. September 2017

Carl, I guess you didn't or won't bother to read the prior posts.

carlk | 29. September 2017

RedShift Sorry if I misinterpreted your comment. I just think people who bring up safety issue on this are hypocrites.

RedShift | 29. September 2017

Ok so I'm a hypocrite. :-) I think I will live, no worries!

Look man, I love Tesla. I started the whole Tesla obsession back in 2010 when I read up on project Whitestar. I *was* in line to buy my second one, which was to be an M3.

After I read that crusade control, wiper speed, scroll wheel clicks, they all required me to look away from the road, I had serious second thoughts. This is going to be driven primarily by my wife. But that doesn't matter either. Things that I do right now by looking at the instrument cluster will now require a glance away, sometimes frequently. Don't you tell me that's not a safety issue. If that makes me a hypocrite, well, whatever!

Who am I to say Tesla did something wrong eh?

CV63 | 29. September 2017

I don't understand those who are against a HUD. This is a techie car, isn't it? HUD is techie. Look at the F-35 it has HUD built into the helmet. That's one of the most techie things on the planet. As an old (not so old) Navy avionics tech, I want my interior to look like a fighter jet! In fact I have some mementos from my days I would love to incorporate including a phoenix missile launch button from an F-14 that would do nicely as an ignition switch!

I guess I could mount that into the new, clean, dash somewhere and hook up some sort of 007 ejection seat or something.

Seriously, why would anyone be opposed to the HUD as an option? Safety aside, it offers nice features re GPS and the like.

topher | 29. September 2017

"he only safety benefit I see is being able to see their speed by simply re-focusing their eyes rather than looking down or right and re-focusing."

If the only thing you are looking at for safety is speed, you are already more unsafe than I like to be. With the addition of things like 'blind spot detection, lane detection, speed limit detection, even more so.

Thank you kindly.

MTTPA | 29. September 2017

I want a HUD, but only if it can replace the touchscreen. Something like a Google Glass.

carlk | 29. September 2017

First thing is we always fast switching between different views (adjacent lanes, cross traffic, traffic lights, debris and pot holes, pedestrians....) while we drive instead of having to fix you eyesight at a small area right in front. The second is no matter where the info is located it will always take a fraction of a second for the brain to process the info, and take the mind away from watch what's on the road. You just want to do it as infrequent as it's needed. The HUD in front actually may make you to put your mind on that more frequent than necessary. A detraction that I probably would just turn off. I'm not piloting a fighter plane or driving a race car that I need to monitor the status every second.

It's similar to hand free phones. Some argue it's actually more dangerous because it induces people to make more phone calls in the car. Using a phone is dangerous not just because you're taking your eyes off the road but it's also because you're taking your mind away from driving.

Yodrak. | 29. September 2017

Seems to me that looking at the instrument cluster is as much "a glance away" as looking at the touch screen.

"Things that I do right now by looking at the instrument cluster will now require a glance away, sometimes frequently."

carlk | 29. September 2017

Yodrak Yes that has been said many times before already. It's actually easier to take a quick glance at the left top corner of the touch screen than at the cluster behind the steering wheel. People could just do a test on your own with an imaginary screen at the positions where it supposed to be.

Yodrak. | 29. September 2017

Thanks for answering my question abut what other things a HUD should display in addition to the car's speed, but the only item on your list that isn't in my field of view even without a HUD is blind spot detection.

"things like 'blind spot detection, lane detection, speed limit detection,"

Yodrak. | 29. September 2017

How does a HUD replace the touchscreen? Is there such a thing as a touchHud? If not, you're going to have to go to the touchscreen anyway to get something done.

"I want a HUD, but only if it can replace the touchscreen."

RedShift | 29. September 2017

I know - try it in the Model S if you have one.

I have, for last few years. I know from my personal experience it's more inconvenient to glance to the side than down. For example - I only need to glance at the center screen for infrequent things - traffic conditions ahead (red or green lanes?) search for a song (always at stop light). Other than these I rarely use or look at the center screen anymore. Everything is scroll wheels or stalks on the steeering column. It's far more convenient when driving. I think it is unnatural for one to scroll down, click, but confirm selection on the side screen.

carlk | 29. September 2017

Take a look at the 3 interior. Top of the touchscreen is not much far away than where a HUD would be.

https://www.theverge.com/2017/7/29/16061480/tesla-model-3-interior-video...

I think this HUD whine is all ado about nothing. Let's drive the car first before draw the conclusion. Nothing will change anyway.

RedShift | 29. September 2017

Nothing will change at all is right - not for the next 3 years.

Carl Thompson | 29. September 2017

"I think this HUD whine is all ado about nothing. Let's drive the car first before draw the conclusion."

I think this HUD not needed whine is all ado about nothing. Let's drive a car with a HUD first before draw the conclusion.

Ninefiveone | 29. September 2017

Well that's productive...

carlk | 30. September 2017

"Let's drive a car with a HUD first before draw the conclusion."

Let's drive the car without HUD first before draw the conclusion.

markr7 | 30. September 2017

When I had my Z06 Corvette, I found the HUD actually to be a distraction. I don't need to see my speed & tach every second I'm driving. Then I thought this would be great when drag racing, I'll know my exact shift points... I was wrong again, I found it better to listen & feel what the car is doing rather than looking at HUD tach.
I paid extra to have the HUD, thinking I would love it, I didn't; Truth is, I turned it off 90% of the time.

Try this experiment in your current car. Get on the freeway, think to yourself, I'm going to accelerate to 65 MPH. When you think you're there, look at your speedo... I bet you will be within 3 MPH of 65 MPH.

You may THINK you need a HUD, I bet you don't really need it...

carlk | 30. September 2017

@markr7 Like you said I don't check my speed more than a few times in an entire trip and those are just some quick glancing anyway. The rest are pretty much to follow the traffic and to drive at a speed I feel comfortable with. I wouldn't mind to have the HUD if I can turn it off, and I likely will, but the point is still the model 3 does not have it that many don't seem to get it. A lot of FUD have been spread here because there is a new display in the car. The way I see it the speed display on the model 3 is actually closer to the eye and easier to check than that on the model S. That's why I said "Let's drive the car without HUD first before draw the conclusion.".

topher | 30. September 2017

"but the only item on your list that isn't in my field of view even without a HUD is blind spot detection."

How so? Where is speed limit detection displayed that it is currently in your field of view, but speed is not? Both are on the center display.

Thank you kindly.

Hippo626 | 30. September 2017

Instead of a Hud they should just put in a multi information display screen like the model S. It's not that they want to be minimalist, they're just being cheap.

ReD eXiLe ms us | 30. September 2017

It really sucks using a tablet to post here. The one time you forget to copy your entry, the site always logs out of your account. I had written something really too.

My Friends who survived major car accidents both say the same thing word-for-word, "Seat belts work!" One came through a freeway pileup with only a fractured collar bone, though his Mazda RX-7 2nd Gen was rolled & crumpled. The other was in an ancient Volkswagen Beetle that was T-boned by a Brinks truck as he pulled out of the driveway at work, and had a busted left knee.

I have seen no evidence that a HUD would be as effective as safety equipment.

ReD eXiLe ms us | 30. September 2017

Panasonic has shown some nice HUD systems that demonstrate 'Augmented Reality' in recent years. Due to their close relationship with Tesla, one of those may appear in their cars. Please note, the Model X did not arrive with a HUD, the 2016 refresh of Model S did not add a HUD, and the Model 3 launched without a HUD. At this point it seems unlikely the Model 3 will see a HUD anytime soon.

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ReD eXiLe ms us | 30. September 2017

Pragmatic posts such as those by Pungoteague Dave are the perfect prescription for those who are soured by the admittedly over-the-top optimistic nature of my own. I think he is awesome, and I appreciate his efforts to keep the forum grounded without being insulting or being a purveyor of FUD. I feel much the same about topher, Bighorn, Rocky_H, Brian H, Haggy, Roamer, and a bunch of other long timers here that I respect. They are the evidence that we are not all 'cheerleaders' and that we welcome open debate and critical discussion in the midst of our enthusiasm for Tesla.

Yodrak. | 01. Oktober 2017

Signs posted along side of the road.

You're most welcome.

"Where is speed limit detection displayed that it is currently in your field of view,"

topher | 01. Oktober 2017

"Signs posted along side of the road."

Well, I happen to live in one of those odd places where they only put them in occasionally, not where there is always one in view. Sorry for being provincial.

Thank you kindly.

topher | 01. Oktober 2017

"I have seen no evidence that a HUD would be as effective as safety equipment."

Well such evidence would be statistical in nature, so unless you dug deep in the NHTSA archives you are unlikely to have encountered any. Additionally, for the Model 3, much of the benefit I see in a HUD is communicating autopilot information when at less than level 5 capability. Elon may think that everyone will be FSDing next year, but I am not so optimistic.

Thank you kindly.

Yodrak. | 01. Oktober 2017

Same here, but I can count on there being a sign at points where the speed limit changes.

You're most welcome.

"I happen to live in one of those odd places where they only put them in occasionally, not where there is always one in view."

ReD eXiLe ms us | 01. Oktober 2017

topher: At less than Level 5 I would be paying full attention, just as I do in all cars equipped with cruise control. I don't need to see what the car is thinking about. I just have to know what I am doing behind the wheel.

johnmann | 01. Oktober 2017

Because of this thread I’ve been paying attention to what my eyes are doing while driving the last few days. While a HUD is cool technology and wouldn’t be bad to have I think it’s a fallacy to state that your eyes should always be looking straight ahead while driving and that doing otherwise is unsafe. My eyes are everywhere while driving; constantly checking traffic right and left, checking all three mirrors, and looking ahead. They are all over, trying to see everything and never settling on a single thing for more than a few seconds. The display behind the steering wheel and in the center console are two of the places less frequented by my eyes. They go there not so much for safety than to check the status of something.

I do agree that the display does require more attention to operate than physical knobs which provide tactical feedback, but that has little to do with the presence or lack of a HUD.

Based on this I don’t feel that a HUD would significantly affect safety.

carlk | 01. Oktober 2017

@johnmann Yes pretty much the same of what I just posted in the "display a safety issue" thread. Funny how many people are willing to convince themselves the sky is falling without even trying to do a little investigation.

Yodrak. | 01. Oktober 2017

+1

I took a Smith Safe Driving course a few months ago (it's required by my employer for anyone whose job requires driving a company vehicle, and available at no cost to all employees) and the behavior that you describe is right on. Looking straight ahead at all times is actually counter-productive because it dulls the senses, one needs to keep their eyes moving to stay alert.

"Because of this thread I’ve been paying attention to what my eyes are doing while driving the last few days. While a HUD is cool technology and wouldn’t be bad to have I think it’s a fallacy to state that your eyes should always be looking straight ahead while driving and that doing otherwise is unsafe. My eyes are everywhere while driving; constantly checking traffic right and left, checking all three mirrors, and looking ahead. They are all over, trying to see everything and never settling on a single thing for more than a few seconds."

cprzywarty | 01. Oktober 2017

You can purchase an after market HUD system from www.navdy.com for $500.00
I just installed one on my used 2012 S85.

Companies name is NAVDY

PS: It took me about ~30 minutes to install, sits on top of your dash via a rubber mat, comes with 3 different mounts to fit different cars and plugs into the data port under dash of car and connects to your phone via bluetooth nad has an app "NAVDY" you download to your phone.

Cliff P. - Pgh PA

ReD eXiLe ms us | 02. Oktober 2017

Per Trevor Page at M3OC, he was informed by a Tesla Engineer in July that the NAVDY will not work with Model 3. The EPA test documentation that was uncovered some months ago that Tesla got an exemption for the OBD port on the Model 3. You may have to use a GPS based device instead of one that plugs into the car's systems if you want HUD as an aftermarket addition.

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