Model S

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No Model S Refresh Anytime Soon



  • edited November 2018
    Didactic arguments about objectivity?

    Unsurprising, from someone who changed his forum handle to whitewash his history of bias.

    Self-inflicted, mutually contradictory assertions are enough to discredit his false argument.

    Quite a lot of time and ink on the Tesla forum from a guy who professes to like his Hummer better.
  • edited November 2018

    I’ve been thinking about your comment that as the OP it would be funny if I deleted this thread.

    I think necessary, not funny, and here is why. I’ve only been on this forum since I placed my order in 11/01. The thing that bothers me the most is that people like me who have a desire to own one of these beautiful machines has to navigate thru so much propaganda and outright lies from the likes of Darthamerica and his ilk. In the spirit of protecting other newbies, and to not give voice to such garbage, I will delete this thread on Monday.

    If anyone else has anything constructive to add, do so soon.

    Darthamerica, if I don’t run into you on any other threads, that will be just fine with me.

    Hershey’s and Tesla 4ever.
  • edited November 2018
    "@Hammer what scientific studies?"
  • edited November 2018
    Darth’s hijacking of a discussion about design was entirely about using it to insert a narrative of doubt.

    Doubt narrative is classic defensive posture when you’re out of bullets on product, and sales are moving to the disruptor.

    In 2019, Model 3 production will edge up to 8 to 10K per week.

    How many BMW 3 Series cars do you suppose will be sold then?
  • edited November 2018
    NRgrin - you can delete the thread, but consider the benefit to newbies when such a deception is outed, and remains documented. It’s productive.

    When folks realize they’re being lied to, it actually motivates them to join in and accelerate this change.
  • edited November 2018
    Mark: You make a very nice point, I appreciate the additional perspective. This thread does reveal a unified approach from the Tesla family and completely shoots down the propaganda.

    I think I’ll take your advice and leave it.
  • edited November 2018
    Veritas Omnia Vincit
  • edited November 2018
    @NRGrin: Darth never responded to my simple retort, either: if it’s supposedly so easy for competitors to duplicate Tesla’s success, then why haven’t they done it? Tesla claims a much higher profit margin than almost any other manufacturer, so why aren’t they all falling over themselves to increase their own margins by simply copying what Tesla has done? Gross margins are 8-10% for other manufacturers, and 10-15% for luxury makers, so why not shoot for that 20-25% Elon is touting?

    Apple makes an astounding profit on its devices; while other companies make fine competing products, they are all in a race to the bottom for profit margins.
  • edited November 2018
    "But in the interim ICE vehicles are still better overall."

    MS is the best overall for me. That is why I bought it.
    MX is best overall for our second car. That is why I bought it.

    EVERYONE buys the car that is the best overall for them. Right now BEV is not the best overall for everyone, which is why they ony account for a small percentage of sales.
  • edited November 2018
    People assume H2 drivers just have small dicks. It could be as simple as stupidity. Although the gixxer makes me think the former.
  • edited November 2018
    "So since you are unable to refute anything I said"

    We have refuted everything with facts and references.

    You spew lies as if they were facts, with no references. You are as loose with the truth as a politician.
  • bpbp
    edited November 2018
    Compared to ICEs, EVs are still extremely early in the technology life cycle.

    Like any new technology - early EVs are relatively expensive, lack features, and lack the maturity of design & manufacturing of the previous generation technology. And as the technology matures, prices come down, more features are added - and when there's sufficient momentum, the older technology products are phased out.

    Compare EVs to digital TVs. The early digital TVs were relatively expensive with few models and fewer features, compared to the decades-old CRT analog TVs. But when the inflection point was hit in the maturity of the digital TVs, CRTs very quickly disappeared from the market. Similar story on other technologies like analog audio/video to digital audio/video to streaming audio/video.

    Can Tesla improve their current products? Absolutely! There are multiple areas where Tesla can and should implement improvements - software quality/distribution process, manufacturing, … The other manufacturers don't have these issues, because they are using processes that have been around for decades - while Tesla is trying to do what no one else has done - quickly grow into a major auto manufacturer, using different models for designing, producing, selling and servicing their vehicles.

    Are they going to make some mistakes along the way - absolutely! Though with their faster-time-to-market model, they are better positioned to correct those mistakes than the other manufacturers stuck in a once-a-year model change model.

    Getting back to the OP's original comments on a Model S/X refresh - while Tesla might surprise us and introduce some major changes to the S/X family, with so much else on their plate from an engineering & manufacturing standpoint, it seems more likely we'll see smaller changes to the S/X over the next few years - leveraging Tesla's leads in battery/motor technology, charging network, EAP/FSD, and their ability to distribute major changes through software updates.
  • edited November 2018
    @Bighorn why are you worried about my anatomy? You're being a fool to say something like that. But suit yourself...

    @tes-s no you haven't refuted anything I said. You have different opinions, but that's not refuting anything. Refuting me would be to show that something I said is factually incorrect. There's a difference. More people drive ICE vehicles because EVs are still a niche market in the auto industry. ICE vehicles are still a better option for most people. That's a fact you can't counter no matter how much you like your car. Only the improvements I said over a few decades is going to change that dynamic. Just because BEV is good for me or my preference doesn't make it the best for everyone. Why you're getting upset and arguing this makes no sense. It's as simple as this. You can take an S Class or H2. Start from LA and drive both non stop to Las Vegas at 75mph. In the S Class you have the option for TACC and lane keeping. Both vehicles can use their climate control systems without significant impact to range. If one of those vehicles needs to stop for fuel along the way, the are several dozen places. If a breakdown happens, it's easier to get service or a tow. In both cases S Class as H2 will likely be back in the road sooner. And if you decided to start your trip after those vehicles sat in the garage for two weeks prior, no vampire loss will drain you to the point of having to charge. If you need to immediately turn around for any reason, a simple stop at the gas station and you're on your way. This isn't possible in a Model S. Do you deny the superiority of these ICE vehicles on a road trip such as this? If not then why are we arguing? It's ok to call out the drawbacks! This is the kind of thing that the vast majority of drivers consider about switching to an EV. Will EVs and Tesla improve to match this performance? Likely they will in the next decade. So why are you getting so offended by this fact?

    @Hammer I'll read the NASA study and get back to you on whatever point your trying to make. What do you think the report "proves"?
  • edited November 2018
    "@tes-s no you haven't refuted anything I said"

    We have. Contrary to your lies, BEV are about half the emissions of ICE in the US currently, and getting better each year as we green the grid.

    Posted by @Bighorn:
    Update based on cleaning of the grid:
  • edited November 2018
    "ICE vehicles are still a better option for most people."

    Yes - that is why more ICE are sold currently.

    But for the 500,000 people that purchased EVs in the US, EV was the better option for them.
  • edited November 2018
    @Tes-s no you haven't. Want to know why? I said that EVs aren't any greener because they are ultimately powered by fossil fuels to include the TOTAL associated production, logistics and charging. I also said that will not significantly change until after more energy is produced via non fossil fuel sources. Because of this the few EV owners out there aren't making any real difference with regard to emissions.

    About your second point, sure, but that's still barely half of what Toyota or Ford make in a month. Again not sure why this is something to debate. EVs are trendy but not very widely adopted yet. That's because for most ICE is still going to be a preferred choice.

    Where are we really in disagreement?
  • edited November 2018
    EVs are still a niche market, not because the technology and range aren’t there yet. It is because of the plethora of people like Darth using fear, intimidation and misinformation to scare then away.

    I wonder what percentage of the population in their normal, everyday life, drives more than 250 miles in a day?

    Even for longer trips, my trips from Dallas to Indianapolis aren’t going to take me any longer in my Tesla. My kids need bathroom and food breaks every few hours anyway.

    I’m not saying the Tesla is the best choice for 100% of drivers. What I am saying is it would be a better choice for a much larger percentage of real world drivers.
  • edited November 2018
  • edited November 2018
    @NRGrin it's not just road trips which is what I used in my last example. Charging and range in general is still an issue. I will agree Tesla is leaps and bounds ahead on this. But it's still not quite there yet. New drivers still have to make significant lifestyle changes as form new habits. Vampire loss is still an issue. Weather is much more impactful vs ICE. You'll see when you get your car. 250 miles is really about 180 miles unless you can charge overnight. Most can't.
  • edited November 2018
    Once again, please be factual.
    Please respond to TeslaTap's comment on the Hummer.
  • edited November 2018
    I can refute everything you said except recharge time vs. fill up time. Are you not reading what I wrote?
  • edited November 2018
    @Darth: "I said that EVs aren't any greener because they are ultimately powered by fossil fuels to include the TOTAL associated production, logistics and charging."

    My friend, this is a fallacy that has been thoroughly debunked - please do some research. Say what you wish about whether an ICE or EV is currently the best choice for individual auto buyers, but when you keep echoing statements like this along with hackneyed climate change denial, your non-science-based bias is showing.
  • edited November 2018
    I think the S needs a refresh. I have a 2013 P85 and there has been nothing compelling enough for me to upgrade. Autopilot would be nice, but it isn't a must have for me right now. Some design tweaks would help, but most important to me would be a significant increase in range, such as 400 miles.
  • edited November 2018
    "@Hammer I'll read the NASA study and get back to you on whatever point your trying to make. What do you think the report "proves"?"

    It proves you have no idea how science works.
  • edited November 2018
    "I said that EVs aren't any greener because they are ultimately powered by fossil fuels to include the TOTAL associated production, logistics and charging. "

    Yes, I saw that completely false statement. That is the auto manufacturer and oil company talking point which has been debunked. Did you see the UCS link? 50% less lifecycle emissions.
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