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Why Mars? Why not the moon?

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  • edited February 6
    Agreed.
  • edited February 6
    I agree that we need to protect ourselves from external radiation on Mars because there is minimal atmosphere..
    However for the record you made an incorrect statement. You are unable to show that that the soil is radioactive. It is a small point but the reason I am persisting is that you have shown yourself to have a real snotty attitude. I respected some of your posts originally. But you also tend to make incorrect statements. I think it is important to be scientifically accurate. And when a mistake is pointed out retract the statement and move on. You tend to persist and insult. The first time you did it I asked you to back off. But you persisted. You need to learn humility. I would be happy to stand corrected if you you could show me that the Martian soil is radioactive. But using examples on earth with isotope contamination is a totally different story. So I don't buy it. I challenge you to show me how Martian soil becomes radioactive with Martian data. My reading suggests that the most toxic product in Martian soil are perchlorates. So I challenge you to prove me wrong with data and facts rather than snide comments.
  • edited February 6
    @jimglas. Indeed new are destroying Earth. It would be indeed be far easier to clean up the Earth with its overall habitable environment than staring afresh is a hazardous environment. As per the OP. I wonder if it wouldn't be far simpler to inhabit the Moon. Perhaps we should try reopen the original discussion with facts.
  • edited February 6
    I have provided extensive scientific data which, based on what our Science is aware of, substantiates my position that the Martian soil is contaminated with radiation.

    You just appear to lack the level of cognitive ability required to comprehend the implications of the facts as presented (this is me being "snide" as you've accused me), afterall, with the absence of the sort of atmospheric and magnetospheric and ionospheric (all of which we've long recognized are crucial protections required to guard against radiation contamination) that we enjoy here it only stands to reason that Mar's soil is contaminated with various forms of radiation, such as is found out in the vacuum of Space, because it hasn't had anything to keep any of it from getting in for over 4 billion years.

    To that end my so-called "incorrect statements" are based on the facts derived from our accumulated statistical data composed of scientific observations and testing, so I do not understand just how you can assume them as being "incorrect".

    Also, please note that never have I said that "[e]stablishing a colony there [is] insurmountable", it's not, but it would require an intense amount of engineering and epic financial investment to ensure that the proper precautions are taken.

    You've gone on to accuse me of misinterpreting your statements when all I've ever done is taken them as they are presented in this digital medium, literally and at face value.

    You've also said that I am "unbalanced", and that, "[a]t one point I actually thought you knew what you were talking about", as well as "[p]ersonally I think that the only thing worse than an idiot is an idiot with initiative...", yet you accuse ME of being "snide"? Ha!

    Granted, I admit that my position on this matter is speculative as it is derived from our observations of the properties and//or effects of radiation on a variety of materials both found here on Earth and those which have either crashed here that we've managed to retrieve//scan or that our astronauts have brought back with them from their travels to the Moon, but then, that's all we've got to go on.

    To repeat, "[r]adioactive contamination occurs when radioactive material is deposited on or in an object or a person."

    https://www.cdc.gov/nceh/radiation/emergencies/contamination.htm

    Magnetometer readings have shown that the planet does not have a global magnetic field but has localized magnetic fields in particular areas of the crust which, given the absence of the magnetic field that would typically be generated by its dynamo (core), could merely be the resultant accumulations of magnetic mineralogical materials deposited from the pulverized output of millions to billions of years worth of meteoroid impacts.

    >>> The MAVEN mission craft data:

    https://www.nasa.gov/mission_pages/maven/main/index.html

    >>> Mars Global Surveyor data:

    https://mars.nasa.gov/mars-exploration/missions/mars-global-surveyor/
    https://mars.nasa.gov/internal_resources/813/
    https://mars.nasa.gov/mgs/

    >>> "I am well aware of isotope contamination which you are perpetually linking. However on Mars I do not believe there is isotope contamination"..."You are unable to show that that the soil is radioactive."

    Given that Mars doesn't have much of an atmosphere or an ionosphere or a magnetosphere or any other observable, detectable or measurable means of guarding itself against radiation contamination, how could it NOT be irradiated?

    I find your dim-wittiness annoying, Jack.
  • edited February 6
    why the hell are u guys arguing about irradiated soil? We will not survive on the surface anyway so worrying about the soil is negligable as we will have a protective suit on. Its super cold on the surface of mars as well, so about that protective suit.

    How about is the mars soil even suitable to grow a plant that is well adapted and adjusted to the conditions and microbes and minerals found in earth soil?
  • edited February 6
    Yes Mars (or our Moon for that matter) is an entirely different planet with an entirely different ecosphere that is alien to our own.

    However, based on what we know and//or what our Science is aware of today, it only stands to reason to conclude that Mars is irradiated to varying degrees with various forms of radiation and that understanding is what we should base our efforts on when devising means of traveling to and possibly inhabiting the planet, that is, providing that potential future revelations do not provide evidence that alters that conclusion.
  • edited February 6
    @blue. I guess our annoyance is mutual. It is impressive that you read. But I am afraid that you don't have a full comprehension of the topic. Posting links is important. Sadly they do not prove your point. I am grateful that I am not going to Mars and that you are not in charge of anti radiation precautions
  • edited February 6
    that is correct. There is also less intensity of sunlight there, so even getting a plant to grow will be a challenge in and of itself.
  • edited November -1
    @andy.connor.e

    The suit, once properly constructed, would necessarily need to provide protection from all potential threats while we were outside of our habitats//vessels, but 'what about what happens when we re-enter our habitats' and 'what do with all of the contaminants we then bring with us back inside' are the more relevant questions to be answered.

    No, it is likely not as, by all currently known indications, Mars has an entirely different ecology (a non-ecology if you will) from that of our own, so it would be necessary for use to bring our own soil if we've any intent of growing sustainable plants//crops.
  • edited February 6
    @SCCRENDO

    Dude, you're a deliberately obtuse dick.

    A question...Do you have any proof that the Martian soil ISN'T irradiated?
  • edited February 6
    @andy.connor.e

    We have lighting solutions that can provide the levels of spectrum proven to be most beneficial to plant growth so proper or adequate lighting is not really an issue.
  • edited February 6
    @blue

    agreed, i would think initially we would need to grow plants in bubbles if you will, with artificial light and vent the oxygen to the outside. I bet we will be able to figure out a gene modification to survive the mars environment without hurting us if we eat the plants.
  • edited February 6
    Appreciate the compliment. Reminds me of Trump who thinks everyone but himself is dishonest, incompetent and racist.
  • edited February 6
    everything reminds you of trump
  • edited February 6
    @SCCRENDO

    I'll have you know that I can both read and write, as well as walk and talk, and form fairly articulate sentences comprised of proper grammar, punctuation and spelling wherein I manage to structure a series of consonants and vowels together into alphabetically sorted words, terms and phrases laced together in a somewhat intelligible fashion that readers often find both engaging and informative...

    Imagine that!
  • edited February 6
    @andy.connor.e

    I envision something akin to this example of a "vertical farm" which employs the use of the most advantageous spectrum(s) of light, no soil whatsoever, and far less water than one would imagine//that we might have grown accustomed to:



    It would have to be maintained inside the confines of the vessel and serve double duty as a food source and as an atmosphere cleanser and generator because we wouldn't be able to replenish our oxygen supplies in an environment such as Mars.

    All in all given the current status of Mars' environment we'd have to live in enclosed, self-sustaining pods or habitats interlinked with walkways completely cut off from the Martian environment, basically "mole people", as any alteration(s) to our genetic structure to compensate for the Martian climatological extremes would entail our no longer being 'human'.
  • edited February 6
    Yup. I invision it that way too. Everything will be mostly underground. There can be some bubbles above ground with some glass and i think thats an important thing to have. Natural light with visibility to the day cycles is important for us, but tunneling underground will probably be the primary method of travel. Almost like doing Earth correctly. Now we can start from scratch and implement that multi-layer underground highway system and traffic wont even be a thing.
  • edited February 6
    @SCCRENDO

    You're welcome, and while I do not consider you "dishonest" or particularly "incompetent" (just a somewhat slow-ish, obstinate denialist) or even "racist" (not enough interaction with you to determine one way or the other), the question still stands:

    Do you have any proof that the Martian soil ISN'T irradiated?
  • edited February 6
    As stated earlier. Go argue with your wife. Hopefully she is more tolerant of you.
    No I do not have evidence that the Martian oil is not radioactive. You were the one who was claiming it was. I googled it and could not find any evidence. Nor is there any logical reason why it should be. All I asked was for you to provide me evidence. You certainly have provided reams of irrelevant links but I have not seen any evidence from you. The only issue here is the credibility of some of your claims. This is highlighted by your lack of supporting evidence and heightened hysteria at being challenged. So again from my standpoint enough is enough. Go argue with your wife
  • edited February 6
    @andy.connor.e

    Thing is with such an enclosed, self-contained structure//habitat you could live on the surface of most anywhere if it were also constructed to be structurally sound, bypassing any need of burrowing under the surface for protection as the exterior of the structure//craft would be exposed to the elements either way.

    As I touched upon in an previous reply to you, besides having lighting solutions that provide light spectrum beneficial for plant growth, we've also means of mimicking the natural lighting cycles we're accustomed to here on Earth, so we've no problem with replicating a typical day-to-night cycle either to ensure that we maintain our natural circadian rhythms.

    An underground freeway system IS the only way that I can see full autonomous drive capability being possible given the inherent unpredictable dynamism of the typical commuter environment, though our ability to implement such a transportation system on Mars would be an incredibly expensive undertaking requiring global, multinational commitment to be even remotely feasible, though even that would depend on the consistency of the Martian sub-strata which is still an unknown factor.
  • edited February 6
    ya thats true. Underground travel is scaleable whereas above ground is subject to the elements and not really scaleable.
  • edited February 8
    @SCCRENDO

    It's alright if you're unable to understand how a planet with the sort of protections ours has is safe from radiation while others without those same protections are not regardless of however simple of a correlation I might like to think that it is and I'm tired of trying to find a way to explain it to you in a manner that you'll be able to comprehend.

    It's interesting that you mentioned Trump in a previous reply given that your behavior in this discussion is reflective of his own as he, too, prefers to acknowledge the truth of a concept or proposition that is supported by the majority of scientific or historical evidence, choosing instead to deny reality as a way to avoid a psychologically uncomfortable truth.

    But, again, it's alright as some people are just that way.
  • edited February 9
    Ideally the one point I hope I've managed to convey is that everything, and everyone for that matter, that has ever ventured beyond the natural protections of our planet's influence has been exposed and subjected to varying degrees of various types of radiation, everything and everyone, as radiation does not discriminate.

    So as we start this next great push beyond the comforts of our home world and out into our Solar System, and perhaps even further, I hope that we do so fully aware of the dangers we face and will take the necessary precautions to ensure our lasting success so that this will be a sustainable venture and not a "one and done" adventure.
  • edited February 10
    I see your site and this point identifies with Why Mars? Why not the moon?. I propelled by your battle.You are a great man.https://telefoonreparatie.nl/
  • edited February 17
    They are looking at how use moon soil to grow plants.
    https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-beds-bucks-herts-51466077
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