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Problems with warranty and aftermarket amplifier install
I am a longtime Tesla Model S owner and a first time poster. I understand that this issue has been talked about in the past, but I am having trouble finding persuasive, written proof. I had a very reputable installer install a JL Audio 900/5 D style amp, and another smaller JL audio D style amp, as well as some very nice Z series speakers and a JL Audio 8" sub. I don't blast the system, I just like nice quality bass. The JL audio amplifiers get power directly from the battery and have an in-line fuse. The amplifiers only turn on when the break peddle is depressed and the car "wakes up", so presumably there is no power drawn when the car is dozing. This system was installed in my 2013 Tesla Model S and then in my newer 2017 Model S without a single problem for all those years. About 3 weeks ago I went to get in my car and I got a message that I had a low 12V battery and I read that I should have it replaced. About 1 minute later the car would no longer respond, handles were stuck in the "in" position, and my wallet was locked in the car. I went online and found out how to open the frunk and I applied a jump/booster to the battery and got enough power to open the doors and get my wallet out. I called for Ranger service and they came out the next day and put in the newest version 12V battery. Before he left there were error messages on the screen and he determined that the DC to DC converter was likely not functioning properly and so I had the car towed 90 miles for service. The car is under warranty, so I figured all was fine.
The next day I get a call and I am told that the DC to DC needed replacing and that I would have to pay about $1000 (which I read is a good price compared to others). However, I am told that the warranty will not cover the work because I had an aftermarket amp installed. After arguing unsuccessfully, I simply said that I needed my car and that I would pay the $1000 and pick it up. Below is the summary of the the conversation I had over the phone, and I followed up the phone call with an email to the service person's email address, so that I could hopefully have some record that we had the discussion. Before you read below, I will tell you that I am a big supporter of Tesla and a relatively early adopter for the car, especially where I live. I am not interested in getting personal or negative with the service guy, and I am not interested in bashing anyone. I am just hoping that forum members might be able to point me in the right direction so that I can defend myself, prove my point, and hopefully get a refund of my $1000. For the record, after 7 years, I find it hard to believe that somehow my equipment did any damage. Back in 2013 I recall my installer actually talking to someone at Tesla in Fremont to make sure he did the install correctly. I am really disappointed with Tesla tonight. I guess it is a sign that they are becoming successful and starting to behave like any other car company. As a supporter of the technology, I guess that is a good thing. Perhaps I am simply the person who is wrong!
***EMAIL TO SERVICE PERSON***
Dear XXXX,
I wanted to quickly test out your email address, and also provide you with a summary of what I believe is my position and your position with respect to the repairs that were performed on my Model S.
I believe that it is wrong for you to assume that a non-working DC to DC converter and/or 12V battery is automatically my responsibility, irrespective of the warranty, simply because I authorized a custom audio shop to install an aftermarket stereo system (comprised of two JL Audio class D amps, a 900/5 and another smaller amp, several JL audio Z-series speakers and a JL Audio 8” subwoofer). You stated that any accessory that I install in the vehicle that is not made by Tesla, approved by Tesla, installed by Tesla or an authorized Tesla installer, will void the warranty on the car for any components that are also connected to the electrical systems. You further said that this is true of an aftermarket dashcam and an aftermarket radar detector when they are installed directly to the 12V subsystems (not plugged into the cigarette lighter adapter or powered USB port). You stated that Tesla’s warranty is really no different than any other car warranty when it comes to aftermarket installations. Lastly, you very politely and professionally stated that the onus is on the customer to prove that the warranty should cover the work, and that it is not Tesla’s responsibility to show the customer how the equipment caused the damage.
My position is simply that the installation of an aftermarket stereo, radar detector, dashcam, and similar items does not automatically void the warranty on the battery or the DC to DC converter, or any other part of the car, UNLESS it can be shown by Tesla that the item was improperly installed or somehow exceeded some stated specification that should not be exceeded. In other words, I did not install some accessory that the car was not designed to handle, or that I installed it in a manner that caused the damage.
Before we ended the call, you assured me that if I could demonstrate to you that your position was not Tesla’s policy, or that your position was not in keeping with rules that govern fair treatment of consumers and proper enforcement of warranties, you would see to it that Tesla would reimburse me the ~$1,008 for the parts and labor. Although I do not think it is my responsibility to prove that the DC to DC converter should be covered under warranty, I agreed to pay for the parts and repair so that I could have my car returned to me, and then I would make my case afterwards.
Please just give me a quick reply to let me know that you received my email and that I did not write anything that was not in keeping with what we talked about.
Respectfully,
XXXX
The next day I get a call and I am told that the DC to DC needed replacing and that I would have to pay about $1000 (which I read is a good price compared to others). However, I am told that the warranty will not cover the work because I had an aftermarket amp installed. After arguing unsuccessfully, I simply said that I needed my car and that I would pay the $1000 and pick it up. Below is the summary of the the conversation I had over the phone, and I followed up the phone call with an email to the service person's email address, so that I could hopefully have some record that we had the discussion. Before you read below, I will tell you that I am a big supporter of Tesla and a relatively early adopter for the car, especially where I live. I am not interested in getting personal or negative with the service guy, and I am not interested in bashing anyone. I am just hoping that forum members might be able to point me in the right direction so that I can defend myself, prove my point, and hopefully get a refund of my $1000. For the record, after 7 years, I find it hard to believe that somehow my equipment did any damage. Back in 2013 I recall my installer actually talking to someone at Tesla in Fremont to make sure he did the install correctly. I am really disappointed with Tesla tonight. I guess it is a sign that they are becoming successful and starting to behave like any other car company. As a supporter of the technology, I guess that is a good thing. Perhaps I am simply the person who is wrong!
***EMAIL TO SERVICE PERSON***
Dear XXXX,
I wanted to quickly test out your email address, and also provide you with a summary of what I believe is my position and your position with respect to the repairs that were performed on my Model S.
I believe that it is wrong for you to assume that a non-working DC to DC converter and/or 12V battery is automatically my responsibility, irrespective of the warranty, simply because I authorized a custom audio shop to install an aftermarket stereo system (comprised of two JL Audio class D amps, a 900/5 and another smaller amp, several JL audio Z-series speakers and a JL Audio 8” subwoofer). You stated that any accessory that I install in the vehicle that is not made by Tesla, approved by Tesla, installed by Tesla or an authorized Tesla installer, will void the warranty on the car for any components that are also connected to the electrical systems. You further said that this is true of an aftermarket dashcam and an aftermarket radar detector when they are installed directly to the 12V subsystems (not plugged into the cigarette lighter adapter or powered USB port). You stated that Tesla’s warranty is really no different than any other car warranty when it comes to aftermarket installations. Lastly, you very politely and professionally stated that the onus is on the customer to prove that the warranty should cover the work, and that it is not Tesla’s responsibility to show the customer how the equipment caused the damage.
My position is simply that the installation of an aftermarket stereo, radar detector, dashcam, and similar items does not automatically void the warranty on the battery or the DC to DC converter, or any other part of the car, UNLESS it can be shown by Tesla that the item was improperly installed or somehow exceeded some stated specification that should not be exceeded. In other words, I did not install some accessory that the car was not designed to handle, or that I installed it in a manner that caused the damage.
Before we ended the call, you assured me that if I could demonstrate to you that your position was not Tesla’s policy, or that your position was not in keeping with rules that govern fair treatment of consumers and proper enforcement of warranties, you would see to it that Tesla would reimburse me the ~$1,008 for the parts and labor. Although I do not think it is my responsibility to prove that the DC to DC converter should be covered under warranty, I agreed to pay for the parts and repair so that I could have my car returned to me, and then I would make my case afterwards.
Please just give me a quick reply to let me know that you received my email and that I did not write anything that was not in keeping with what we talked about.
Respectfully,
XXXX
0
Comments
"Waiver of standards
The performance of the duties under subsection (a) shall not be required of the warrantor if he can show that the defect, malfunction, or failure of any warranted consumer product to conform with a written warranty, was caused by damage (not resulting from defect or malfunction) while in the possession of the consumer, or unreasonable use (including failure to provide reasonable and necessary maintenance)."
It is Tesla's burden to prove your modification was the cause of the failure. It is NOT the consumer's burden of proof.
Clearly, there is a limit to what the inverter can handle, and adding potentially 30-50% more power demand than it was designed for could tilt this in Tesla's favor. While I think it should handle the extra load, my opinion doesn't matter much. When I added a sub-woofer amp (also class D) to my 2013 S, I did it in a way that didn't add any additional load. I didn't have the UHFS amps, so used it's power connections for the small Sub-amp without adding any load (over a car with UHFS). The electrical system is identical for cars with and without UHFS.
I don't know how you can fight this, but I wish you luck. It's worth a bit more pushback, but I suspect Tesla will not budge and if going to court, Tesla may be seen in the right.
It's a converter, not an inverter. An inverter takes DC in and puts out AC.
A better way to do this is to install an additional 12 volt battery to power the amplifier. A relay is required to disconnect from the car when the amp is drawing power.
Good luck.
I would like to point out that on day 700+ of owning this car with this stereo setup, i never saw one fault or error message. The day before the problems started, I went to the car, got in, pressed the brake pedal and immediately received a single message that said something akin to “replace the 12v battery soon”. I have read that this is a message that is supposed to pop up about two weeks prior to battery death. I got out of the car, having left my wallet inside the car, and shut the door. I went to look on the internet to see what I should do. I returned to the car 15 minutes later and it was DEAD. I couldn’t get in or anything. I learned how to manually access the frunk, and once in the frunk, I removed the plastic covers so I could put a voltmeter on the battery. It measured something like 10.2v. I called for Ranger assistance and he put in a new battery and at that point the car came alive and I was able to get my wallet, and I thought all was fine. At that point the Ranger said that he was getting errors that said the car was not driveable, etc...After about 20 minutes of using his laptop he said that it must be the DC to DC converter. I asked the Ranger if he thought my aftermarket stereo could have somehow caused this problem, and he looked at the separate JL Audio fused wiring kit and he said “no”, and that he sees my kind of setups all the time.
This is likely more detail than anyone needs or wants, but the bottom line in my mind is that it seems very unlikely that my class D amps, which power on with the car, caused this damage after all these years. I am simply disappointed that the very existence of my equipment is the stated rationale to make me pay $1k. If they could show me a log, or put a voltmeter on the line and explain what was wrong so I could make it right, I would accept that without question. I think an equally likely reason is that while the car was charging overnight there was a power irregularity on my home charging 240v circuit and this somehow fried the DC to DC converter. The battery, being a bit aged, may have been towards its end of life, and without the DC to DC to periodically charge the 12v battery while the car was sitting idle and charging, the battery quickly depleted when I depressed the break pedal the next morning (actually it was two mornings later).
I will post the model info of the amps later tonight and the fuse size on the line tap that powered my 2 amps. If anyone knows how I should go about escalating this in Fremont, let me know.
link to calculator https://jlaudio.zendesk.com/hc/en-us/articles/209635477-Selecting-the-Proper-Size-Power-Wire
12V accessory usage is limited to the 12v accessory plug (15a) and the two USB ports (1a).
I don't thnk escalating is going to get you anywhere - if you want to pursue it, I suggest getting a lawyer. A letter from your lawyer may get a written response.
It's clear that these cars can't be modified as easily as ICE cars without consequences.
Just tapping into the 12V battery isn't sufficient.
I'm sure there are owners without issues, but you have to accept the results that may happen.
Good luck.
Subwoofer amps have very low frequencies are far less likely to create sharp peaks, but with full bandwidth music on an amp, it's easy to expect some very short high-current needs. This can even be problems for ICE cars. You'll see some high-power professional installations add massive capacitors to help damp out these power spikes - but these can cause problems with the massive high-inrush current when first powered up - which could be as bad for the DC-DC converter.
Irrespective of the accessories, I think that Tesla has some burden, if for no other reason than good customer service, to provide a logical explanation for what caused the problem. I don't think that the simple act of adding an electrical accessory to the vehicle should automatically void the warranty. If that is true then it would logically apply to any accessory whether it be a stereo or any other permanently installed item, like dashcams, radar detectors, etc --emphasis on permamently installed). I don't think that Teslas are too delicate to handle a properly installed, modest, stereo system. The engineers would certainly have designed the car to anticipate these types of installs provided they are properly done. I could be wrong, and I am going to try and reach someone at Tesla and continue a civil discourse until I get some sort of satisfactory answer. I hope to share this with the forum, but until then I appreciate all of the replies and education so that I can be better orepared. For the poster who said that another thread revealed more and more extensive mods to the car, I can assure you that there is nothing tricky or exotic about what I did. However, the point is well taken. For the sake of this post, just assume that the install is well done, and focus on the idea that my warranty was voided just because there were two amplifiers attached to the battery, without any further evidence that the accessory was the cause. It just seems to defy common sense. Maybe I am the one who lacks common sense for thinking that I could put a modest 8" sub and swap out the speakers in the doors.
With the additional information that your audio was fused for 50A, I agree that this will likely kill your argument, considering that Tesla "budgets" up to 15A for consumer add-ons (using the 12V plug). Still, Tesla should be able to articulate why they deny the claim, and logs should be good evidence.
Also, I believe AC is run on the HV battery.
I think that meets the burden of proof, but IANAL. You can post all you want here, but I think you will need a lawyer to communicate with Tesla if you want to pursue this.
"Maybe I am the one who lacks common sense for thinking that I could put a modest 8" sub and swap out the speakers in the doors."
I don't think it is the 8" sub and speakers that is the problem. It is the 38amps estimated draw and direct-wiring with a 50amp fuse.
rxlawdude, I understand that a lawyers letter would get more attention than my emails, but I need to educate myself a little bit more to make sure that my amps are not oversized or draw too much. I will post a little bit later after I learn a bit more of the technical issues.
When the 12v system dies, you lost all ability for the car to log what happened. So it's unlikely there is any log event. Tesla does monitor the 12v, but it would never catch a short high-amperage transient that might have occurred.
It's very possible the DC-DC converter died on its own, but it does seem logical that the amp may have put it over the edge. If I were to guess, it might occur only when a rare combination of events occurs, such as the 12v battery low, so it turns on the battery charging, perhaps the exterior lights turn on and the climate control turns on the fans, seat heaters might also be a load, then the audio amplifier has a short high-power burst. The combination could be deadly to the DC-DC converter. I wish I could tell you the amp has nothing to do with the failure, but in this case, I think Tesla is in the right.
The HD900/5’s “+12 VDC” and “Ground” connections are designed to accept 4 AWG power wire. 4 AWG pure copper wire is the minimum recommended wire size for this amplifier. http://mediacdn.jlaudio.com/media/mfg/9013/media_document/live_1/HD900_5_MAN.pdf
Requirement to connect directly to the battery, 60amp fuse, and #4 wires sounds like a monster load to me. But I'm sure you can find a lawyer that will take the case on a fee basis - contingency not so sure, especially since the claim amount is so low.
If you are installing the HD900/5 with other
amplifiers and wish to use a single main power
wire, use 2 AWG or 1/0 AWG pure copper
wire as a main power wire. This 2 AWG or
1/0 AWG power wire should terminate into a
fused distribution block mounted as close to the
amplifiers as possible and should connect to the
HD900/5 with 4 AWG pure copper power wire,
with each smaller wire fused appropriately for
each amplifier or other electronics in the system.
Frunk:
I added two 12 volt aux sockets.
One 12 volt socket id fused at 10 amps has a on off switch and runs a small refrigerator freezer I use for long trips and trips to costco in warm weather (it is a minimum 2 hour return trip). So far so go no issues.
Driver Side Footwell:
Still in the process of hooking this up but there will be 6 fused connections:
1: power a Aux Socket, volt Meter and 2 USB jacks. Will probably fuse 10 AMP
2: Power a In-fared Camera mounted above my license plate: Fused 2 AMP
3: Power a RCA to HDMI Converter to feed a HDMI box that switches the backup camera to a HDMI source. Fused 1 Amp. (The HDMI Switch is powered by the ODBII Connector)
4: Power a HDMI Switch to switch between In-fared camera and other HDMI sources: Fused at 1 amp
5: Power a HUD Display I have on order not sure of amperage but probably fused at 5 amps
6: Power a Blackview Camera fused at 1 amp
I expect the actual load will be less then 10 amps so I should be ok but should I connect a second battery and have it charge from the 12 volt batter as suggested above?