Model S

frequent supercharging question

It is becoming clear that frequent supercharging may cause more battery degradation with time, but there is little information about best practices if supercharging a lot. I have read that Tesla now has "counters" which monitor the amount of supercharging in your vehicle, and will restrict speed of supercharging with time to "protect your battery." My questions are:

1. I have a 2020 MS 100KWH battery. Is there a counter in this battery? If so, anyone know how many SC's slows down the rate?

2. I supercharge a lot but never charge above 80% and do a lot of small charges (from 30 to 60% for example). Is this any less harmful to my battery, but will these more frequent charges add to my "counter" and ultimately not allow me to charge as fast when needed on a longer trip?

Any insight would be helpful. My car has unlimited charging as long as I am the owner, and the sales people all downplay any supercharging issues. I have 18k on my car with only 2%range loss, and planned to keep the car a long time. Thanks.
«1

Comments

  • There are a number of Teslas used as a limo service between LA and Las Vegas. These only used Superchargers and often multiple times each day. With 200K+ miles it doesn't seem to age the batteries any worse than other means of charging. I expect these were rarely charged above 90%, which is generally the best practice for the batteries.

    As for counters, I don't know. There is going to be battery kWh in and out type recording, but unknown if that affects the battery charging overtime. Some feel it does with some older cars, while others have not seen any effects. It also could be the battery types used, which has changed a number of times over the years. So an issue with an older S90 may have little relation to an S100 that uses different battery chemistry.
  • @redstesla;

    You could interrogate charging types and amounts using a CAN bus reader and app like SMT.

    I would not worry about reduced charging speeds in this year's model, but it might occur after say 10000 KwH DC charging like on the older cars. Pretty sure it has happened on M3, so perhaps not cell or chemistry dependent.

    The older cars were pretty much charge rate limited last year regardless of history. See Charge gate and regen gate threads on TMC.
  • My car was not targeted for a SC slowing despite charging more than most. It had more to do with susceptible batteries like the original 90s.
  • Best practice is to not do deep discharges, to only then supercharge to a high SOC, rinse, repeat. There was an outfit called Tesaloop that ran between LA and Las Vegas that had a battery failure and when it was replaced under warranty, Tesla cited their extreme supercharger use/habits as a contributing factor. They would go to 100%, drive it down to nearly 0, supercharge to 100, drive it back down to below 10%, etc. etc. etc. They didn't give the battery pack a chance to rest.

    "Counters", ya, that is just rumors.
  • Tesla's advice to Tesloop was to charge to 95% instead of 100% and not to supercharge the battery hot, to let it cool for a few hours before recharging.
  • Bjorn Nyland has documented reduced SuC speeds after a high number of DC charging sessions, like Tesla has stated will occur. In his case, the Kw limiting occured at 9000 to 10000 KwH of DC charging.

    The BMS counts all types of energy into the car, even regen. You can see that on SMT, as well as lifetime usage should the SvC wipe out your trip counter...

    Slowing of SuC initial power seems to depend on the car, but not a huge change in SuC time, at least compared to the update induced SuC slowing on the older cars. My guess is about 15-20% increase in charge time for my 85 pack.

    To have a late model S with 150 ish or higher Kw SuC initial speed with FSC is a wonderful thing, as more SuC stalls are added your xc speeds will only increase.
  • Like I noted, it may be car dependent as I had 10 times as much supercharging as Bjorn without any notable impact.
  • It's that special customer app you have!
  • Here is the link to the Electrek article about the counter.

    https://electrek.co/2017/05/07/tesla-limits-supercharging-speed-number-charges/

    It is from 2017 and might not apply any more, but sure would be nice if Tesla was upfront about these issues. When I bought my car with "unlimited supercharging" last year, the sales people AND Tesla were touting the savings of unlimited supercharging. On the Tesla website, the cost estimate for the car showed a $10,000 estimated savings. Now if that isn't a green light to use SC, tell me what is.

    Does anyone know if the counters are still being used in new Teslas to help preserve the batteries for the long term. Again, I try not to supercharge beyond 80%, but understand it is good to charge to 100% every few months before a trip.
  • Electrek isn’t a good source.
  • @BH...agreed, esp lately, But they quote Tesla in this case...

    @reds.. I am pretty sure the BMS is counting all types of charging for your car, don't know if in your case, you will see a reduction in max SuC speed at some point. If it happens, it will be after say 35000 miles of SuC. My guess is it will be a minor increase in charge time, And that lots of SuC to 90% and below will not hurt your battery.

    The counters don't care if you charge via SuC or Chademo, to 20% or to 100%, according to Bjorn. DC is DC.

    For your car, I see no need to go to 100% ever. Might better calibrate the BMS, but it does not help the battery. The latest Tesla guidance says fully charge only when necessary.

    The pumps and AC will be running using energy and you will have no regen. If you are in a tough spot I think 93-95% is as high as I would go.

    If this is not enough, you could do deep dive into hundreds of posts on this subject on TMC, but I don't think it is worth it.

    Latest guidance from Tesla is here:

    https://www.tesla.com/support/range
  • The only time I go to 100 is if there’s any question about reaching the next supercharger.
    Everything Fred publishes needs a major grain of salt—better yet to be totally ignored. His reputation is gone.
  • "....latest Tesla guidance says fully charge on when necessary". "Latest"!!?? It has always been that anything above 90% was for trips. At least going back to early 2014 when I got my Model S.
  • I used the SC network hard for the years I owned an S. After 5.5 years I had only lost 5 miles of range. The key seems to be to get out on the road and exercise the battery normally and not always float it around 90% with just in town driving and charging.
  • Maybe. 4 months of storage at 57% and I charged and drive yesterday.

    This AM, SMT shows 77.3 KwH, 266RM. 4 miles "lost"
  • Do "Urban Superchargers", limited to 75 kWh and usually more like 50, count as much as warp speed superchargers? (2015 85 and 70)
  • Urban Superchargers are limited to 72 kW.

    Not “usually more like 50”. You actually always get dedicated 72kW unlike if you shared a 120-150kW Superchargers.

    250 V3 are also dedicated stalls for each car.
  • The 250 V3 stall sound great but for anyone who already owns a Tesla, but these don't give you real warp speed. I have been to two of these on road trips and the max speed was about 170KWH for the first 4-5 minutes then it dropped down to the 130-140 range until about 40% charged. It really reacted the same as the 150KW chargers. In the future, if Teslas can handle more DC current these will be very fast, but don't plan a trip around these yet.
  • Of course they give you 250kW.

    You must be nearly empty. It is unlikely you arrived at a low enough SOC to receive the full 250kW.

    And yes...they provide true warp speed. 80% full in less than 20 minutes.
  • @Reds - Also depends on the car. Some are limited to 120 kWh (an S75 for example), and there are three versions of the S100 that depending on the version are limited to 150 kWh, 200 kWh, or the latest new cars can go to 250 kWh.

    Yes, there is also tapering to ensure battery longevity. That's why most cell phone batteries die in a couple of years because they don't do charge tapering, which is really bad for longevity.
  • Sam O - when I plug in either of my cars to an urban supercharger I might get 72 kWh initially, but it then drops almost immediately to about 40-50. Starting with battery in the 30% range.
  • > @BarryQ said:
    > Do "Urban Superchargers", limited to 75 kWh and usually more like 50, count as much as warp speed superchargers? (2015 85 and 70)

    Yes. Any DC charging is counted as DC in the counter, according to my SMT and the Bjorn Nyland Videos.
  • I’m the one stuck here. My 2012 S P85 is seeing mostly 95, on the Bighorn scale SOC + kW. It actually has been dropping. My wife’s 3 however, sees close to the full V3 output at a low SOC.

    But it is a 2012, and not the road trip car anymore.
  • Tristeé
  • @Aerodyne - Thanks - you're the only one who actually answered my question.

    A follow up: Would an urban supercharger degrade the battery as much as a higher speed supercharger? (I know it takes many cycles to even begin to degrade the battery.) But in the long run, would, many cycles on the lower power be better, all other factors being equal?
Sign In or Register to comment.