General

It would be nice to have a CCS charge port on Tesla's in the U.S.

CCS seems to have become a world standard. Tesla has an amazing charging network. If they don't want to go CCS in the U.S. could they offer dual Tesla and CCS sockets in future vehicles?
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Comments

  • Only an adapter is needed ... which I believe Tesla committed to doing recently.
  • Why would anyone want to use the awful CCS system. Expensive, clunky, with a fraction of the sites that Tesla offers Superchargers. Tesla is the standard with about 85% of the USA EV market.

    Someone in Korea made a CCS adapter and it fried one car that tried to use it. It looks like it caused at least a thousand dollars in damage.

    Also, the US CCS committee expressly prohibits any kind of adapters.
  • Smart people would be adapting Tesla standard vs CCS .
  • While I agree that the Tesla plug standard is much superior, so was the Beta Video Tape standard. As long as Tesla is the majority of the market, that is fine but unless the other manufacturers switch to Tesla (and they will not), having compatibility would be very good.

    Note that the reason CSS Committee is against adapters is mainly to freeze out Tesla. If Tesla cars could do both the Tesla standard and the CSS standard, Tesla cars would have a major advantage. As long as there are two incompatible standards, Tesla cars are going to start losing the major advantage they have right now.

    PS - I really hate the CSS standard - not just the mechanical bits but also the actual communications and signalling involved. CSS clearly has a designed-by-committee quality to it. (Just look at all of the reports of not being able to use a CSS high speed charger vs Tesla super chargers... The fragility of the system is amazing)
  • @OP,
    You clearly are new to the EV community. Welcome friend!
    This suggestion comes up regularly. I knew folks who were active in the CCS committee back in the early 2010's, when it started. The following info is my recollection of their informal stories about what happened:
    CCS was developed by the incumbent ICE manufacturers who all agreed that they did not want to build EVs - and Tesla They had done the same thing with the J-1772 standard previously. It was designed to do 2 things:
    1) gang up and bully Tesla, the newcomer to the auto industry, into hopefully going out of business. They were comfortable with a big-3 in the US and did not want any newcomers to the club.
    2) make EV charging unpleasant and inconvenient to discourage customers from buying EVs.
    More on these later.
    Shortly after the US had finalized CCS, Dieselgate forced the European ICE manufacturers to take EVs seriously. Rather than adopt CCS1, the Europeans, followed their long-term policy of making incompatibility an artform. They went and created yet another, incompatible version of CCS (CCS2) as an obstructionist standard.
    Initially, the US version of CCS (know known as "CCS1") was limited to 50 Kw. After all, the ICE folks (GM dominant), recognizing that EVs were inevitable but wanted to ensure that an ICE (their Volt) was necessary for any long distance travel. None of them had any cars that might use it but Tesla had the Model S in production and needing a connector. Therefore, in addition to limiting its charging speed, the CCS committee delayed approval of the spec past when Tesla needed something working. Tesla was forced to go their own way.
    The 350 Kw CCS1 capability came later after the committee realized Tesla wasn't being deterred and Porsche pushed to try to show they are better than Tesla.
    The reality today is that Teslas are everywhere, using Superchargers. CCS are mostly empty and will likely fall into disrepair since the VW money only pays to build, not maintain them.
    Tesla IS the World standard. Any carmaker who is serious about EVs will join Tesla and help them build out and maintain the real charging network. Any charging network that is serious will provide Tesla connectors at their stations.
  • > @"Earl and Nagin 08 RDS 359" said: > The 350 Kw CCS1 capability came later after the committee realized Tesla wasn't being deterred and Porsche pushed to try to show they are better than Tesla.

    Electrify America does have a lot of 350kW chargers in service vs. Teslas 250's.

    As for Porsche, don't think they looked at Tesla at all. As for Porche's more advanced 800V system vs Teslas 400V, Tesla is heading in that direction also. Musk is hoping to have the Roadster to the more advanced 800V system.

    Korea, US and EU are all CCS. Tesla is all CCS in EU.
  • I'm a Level-2 Tesla Fanboi - not as dedicated as people like Bighorn and SamO, but at the same time I believe that there's no limit to what Tesla can be.

    That said, the Tesla connector is dead, long-term. In five years, there will be 50 EVs on the market, driven by 25 different manufacturers, and all of them will use CCS other than Tesla. Tesla's superior solution will get swamped by the rest of the market - despite their lead, they can't beat everyone. When governments decide to install urban charging, they'll install CCS. When Walmart decides to install chargers, they'll install CCS.

    Sometime in the next 10 years, Tesla will cave in the USA. Perhaps they'll spin off their charging network and add CCS connectors to all their pedestals. Perhaps they'll just add CCS, and remain Tesla only. You'll see Superchargers start to pop up with CCS connectors; shortly thereafter, Tesla will equip all their vehicles with CCS, and the sleek and sexy Tesla connector will become obsolete.

    The reason that BetaMax failed wasn't due to technical issues, or even that it was limited to 1 hour of recording. It failed because Sony didn't or couldn't license the technology to others; they were competing with a dozen other companies all using VHS, and they simply got overwhelmed. The same will happen with Tesla and their connector.
  • @Frank99,
    You may be right, however, I suspect that sustainability is likely to play a key role going forward with EV charging. These things are subject to abuse, dust, and weather.
    Personally, I shudder to think of what will happen if EVs rely on CCS. Having done a good deal of driving I've only seen people at an interstate CCS once and that was a holiday weekend along I-5 in CA. The rest of the time, they are always empty. I even keep a couple of hot wheels i3s and die-cast new Leafs in my Tesla to give to someone when I see them but still have them. I almost always see Teslas at Superchargers, even in the most remote places in the USA.
    Also, I fail to see how the business case for charging companies, without car company support, can pay to maintain them. The cost to charge just has to be so much that people will only use them when they absolutely have to. This will lead to less use which will lead to higher costs and so on in an unsustainable vicious cycle. As you point out Level 2 is king, extremely cheap, and puts public charging in a bad non-competitive niche.
    I actually hope you're right but the automobile landscape is very likely go the way of Baldwin, Lima, and American Locomotive companies, Smith Corona, Adler, and Royal Typewriter companies, or Kodak, GAF, and Poloroid camera companies - overcome by newcomers. I really think that newcomers are likely to adopt Tesla's charging standard because they want (or need) their EVs to succeed.
    Charging networks will correspondingly need to add Tesla connectors in order to have any hope to succeed.
    Its impossible to know for sure what the future will bear but I've been right so far. Getting hooked on the electric vision in grad school. I leased my EV1 telling folks it would be gone soon but I wanted to try it - 3 years later it was pried away from me to go meet the crusher. I followed, cheered for, and test drove but didn't invest in Aptera, Fisker, Coda, AC Propulsion, Wheego, Hybridcars, Zap, Lightning Electric, Via Motors, Phoenix Motorcars, and others - EV startups that never materialized and took a lot of money down with them. I have been a Tesla customer for over 14 years and am original owner of Tesla #60, $17/share TSLA stock, and am a line-waiter Model 3 owner. I haven't been afraid to put my money behind my vision when I saw it. I called a lot of failures and the one winner correctly.
    My past performance may not indicate future performance but it may be something.
    Personally, I see CCS as being the 8-track tape of the audio world. Maybe like the Stanley Steamer. A clumsy wart in history.
  • Good topic, nice posts.
  • Good actual use and review on the topic

    https://www.autoblog.com/2020/12/24/2021-ford-mustang-mach-e-chargepoint-electrify-america/
  • > @Frank99 said: > That said, the Tesla connector is dead, long-term. In five years, there will be 50 EVs on the market, driven by 25 different manufacturers, and all of them will use CCS other than Tesla. Tesla's superior solution will get swamped by the rest of the market - despite their lead, they can't beat everyone. When governments decide to install urban charging, they'll install CCS. When Walmart decides to install chargers, they'll install CCS."

    Pretty much how it is going.
  • > @"Earl and Nagin 08 RDS 359" said:
    > @OP,
    > You clearly are new to the EV community. Welcome friend!

    Thank you so much. Your answer was welcoming, friendly and amazingly helpful. It is clear Tesla has a superior charging solution, and CCS may have been undermined by other car companies as a charging technology.

    Some have pointed out as more cars come online, inferior or not, CCS is likely to be their standard. Maybe Tesla can work some way to have 3rd party charging stations support dual charging systems.

    Tesla has an amazing charging system in the United States, but I don't think anyone would accept a Ford, GM, Honda, Toyota, etc gas station specific to a car. As EV's become more common somehow this incompatibility will be resolved. Lets hope it's the better solution that wins (Tesla).
  • @"Earl and Nagin 08 RDS 359"

    So much +1 to this subject. Lots of different fuels, lots of connectors, there can be more than one winner.

    Tesla's Supercharging Network and slick proprietary plug, enabling long distance travel almost anywhere on the planet is such an incredible idea that I have a protective feeling of wanting that experience to continue, no matter what.

    I have about 200k supercharging miles and am 100% certain that I would have been unable to do most if not all of those trips even with the current EV charging alternatives. EA, Chargepoint, European Networks, Chinese Networks . . . there is room for everyone . . . it just cannot be at the expense of Tesla.
  • > @SamO said: > I have about 200k supercharging miles and am 100% certain that I would have been unable to do most if not all of those trips even with the current EV charging alternatives. "

    Having tested Electrify America and EVgo, they are located near and equal to Tesla chargers so for 90% f American's the EA and EVgo charging systems cover the earth. People with no experience other than Tesla chargers are just not aware of the current state of play on public charging.

    https://imgur.com/QkrFZQU

    https://imgur.com/nGv2Dus

    https://imgur.com/u8poR6R

    https://imgur.com/4dmVDcI
  • What the Fish says is starting to become correct as far as availability of EA, EVgo, ChargePoint, Greenlots, and other DCFC stations, even in a few relatively remote areas.
    I think that what the mathematically and grammatically challenged Fish brain is trying to say is that there are EA chargers within easy range of 90% of where the population of America lives. The USA is not the world. We don't need a Fast charger at our house. They are needed when away from home and need to be reliable there.
    The 90% coverage was not true when @SamO, I, and others experienced most of their miles since the bulk of the growth has only been in the past year and a half. I even got the first check-in on plugshare.com at a new CHAdeMO station last month on a key corridor between I-80 and I-90!
    I just did a 3500 mile road trip across the western USA and found that there tend to be a few CCS near most Superchargers. Generally, they tend to be at the town's Walmart.
    I, of course, don't usually use them because:
    a) I've had to fight to get them working and I don't like standing out in the cold while some operator reboots the station a few times to get it to actually work.
    b) I was in a hurry
    c) They are expensive and I'm cheap.
    d) There's COVID and I like to minimize having to touch public things. One has to touch a bunch of options to select on the charger display, a button to push, long cables to untangle, and one must get a good grip on the heavy head to manipulate it. In addition to touching the charger in many places, one has to touch one's own cellphone and adapter so they need to be cleaned afterward. With a Supercharger, its one-touch that can be done with a rag or its easy to wipe down or just a quick squirt of hand sanitizer when done.
    I do know, however, that few of my friends with Bolts or e-trons bother to use fast charging because, in addition to my reasons, they are:
    1) too hard to find
    2) too hard to use (gotta have the an account app, or credit card)
    3) are too slow
    4) are unreliable
    I try to help out with 1) by introducing them to plugshare.com but it is definitely an up hill battle. In the mean time, EA, EVgo, etc are not making money to operate and maintain their networks. I wish them well.
    Installing Tesla connectors, making them accessible to 99% of the EV drivers traveling would probably pay off quickly.
  • > @Frank99 said:
    > I'm a Level-2 Tesla Fanboi - not as dedicated as people like Bighorn and SamO, but at the same time I believe that there's no limit to what Tesla can be.
    >
    > That said, the Tesla connector is dead, long-term. In five years, there will be 50 EVs on the market, driven by 25 different manufacturers, and all of them will use CCS other than Tesla. Tesla's superior solution will get swamped by the rest of the market - despite their lead, they can't beat everyone. When governments decide to install urban charging, they'll install CCS. When Walmart decides to install chargers, they'll install CCS.
    >
    > Sometime in the next 10 years, Tesla will cave in the USA. Perhaps they'll spin off their charging network and add CCS connectors to all their pedestals. Perhaps they'll just add CCS, and remain Tesla only. You'll see Superchargers start to pop up with CCS connectors; shortly thereafter, Tesla will equip all their vehicles with CCS, and the sleek and sexy Tesla connector will become obsolete.
    >
    > The reason that BetaMax failed wasn't due to technical issues, or even that it was limited to 1 hour of recording. It failed because Sony didn't or couldn't license the technology to others; they were competing with a dozen other companies all using VHS, and they simply got overwhelmed. The same will happen with Tesla and their connector.


    Care to make it interesting? 😂
  • > @Bighorn said:
    > Care to make it interesting? 😂
    >
    >
    @Frank99ly, I certainly wouldn't take that bet if I were you.

    The Betamax/VHS debate has nothing to do with comparing Tesla's large, growing network that's self-run to a hodgepodge of half-assed companies trying to get their one or two stalls installed by Interstates.

    If the market truly dictates the future, others would license the Tesla connector and access to Superchargers.

    Not Tesla moving to that abomination of a connector. Will never happen. Ever.
  • >>>Care to make it interesting? 😂
    I certainly would; but unfortunately money's tight (it's all locked up in Tesla stock) 😎

    Remember Tesla's goal - accelerating the transition to sustainable transportation. They've been fabulously successful; we wouldn't be talking about this if they hadn't been. The transition is hindered, however, by having multiple incompatible charging cables. There is zero chance that any European car makers will switch to Tesla connectors - they're mandated to have CCS2 in Europe, and even though switching to CCS1 for the USA is about equivalent to switching to the Tesla connector from an engineering and manufacturing standpoint, they won't because, well, Tesla isn't one of them. There is zero chance that any USA car makers will switch to Tesla connectors because, well, Tesla isn't one of them.

    All we can hope is that the next generation of charging connectors from Charin has a lot of input from Tesla, and perhaps all can agree on a better connector.
  • > @rxlawdude said:
    > > @Bighorn said:
    > > Care to make it interesting? 😂
    > >
    > >
    > @Frank99ly, I certainly wouldn't take that bet if I were you.
    >
    > The Betamax/VHS debate has nothing to do with comparing Tesla's large, growing network that's self-run to a hodgepodge of half-assed companies trying to get their one or two stalls installed by Interstates.
    >
    > If the market truly dictates the future, others would license the Tesla connector and access to Superchargers.
    >
    > Not Tesla moving to that abomination of a connector. Will never happen. Ever.
    >

    Although. I don’t entirely disagree. I never understood the push back against a CCS adapter? There is no harm. Some areas (especially in Canada) don’t have many superchargers quite yet (plenty planned for this year). I for instance have two superchargers 15-20 minutes away. But there is 3 options for fast(ish) charging with DC chargers that you need chademo or CCS adapters.

    If it was less than $200. I’d probably buy a CCS adapter just to have it on me just in case. There’s also a popular spot up north from me that only has 6 supercharger spots and in the busy times of the year. Waiting for a spot could be 30-45 minutes (12+ Tesla’s deep)

    I get the argument that it’s a inferior option but there’s no harm in Tesla offering every adapter possible. Whether YOU personally would use it is irrelevant
  • @Frank99

    Did Apple change their charging connector for the Samsun of Huawei one when they started selling more phones than them?
  • > @Frank99 said:
    > I'm a Level-2 Tesla Fanboi - not as dedicated as people like Bighorn and SamO, but at the same time I believe that there's no limit to what Tesla can be.
    >
    > That said, the Tesla connector is dead, long-term. In five years, there will be 50 EVs on the market, driven by 25 different manufacturers, and all of them will use CCS other than Tesla. Tesla's superior solution will get swamped by the rest of the market - despite their lead, they can't beat everyone. When governments decide to install urban charging, they'll install CCS. When Walmart decides to install chargers, they'll install CCS.
    >
    > Sometime in the next 10 years, Tesla will cave in the USA. Perhaps they'll spin off their charging network and add CCS connectors to all their pedestals. Perhaps they'll just add CCS, and remain Tesla only. You'll see Superchargers start to pop up with CCS connectors; shortly thereafter, Tesla will equip all their vehicles with CCS, and the sleek and sexy Tesla connector will become obsolete.
    >
    > The reason that BetaMax failed wasn't due to technical issues, or even that it was limited to 1 hour of recording. It failed because Sony didn't or couldn't license the technology to others; they were competing with a dozen other companies all using VHS, and they simply got overwhelmed. The same will happen with Tesla and their connector.

    Thank you for summing up what I and a lot of others have been trying to say for awhile now.
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