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De-ICE Man Coneth



  • edited November -1
    @Pungoteague_Dave. You say some things very assertively that are factually erroneous.
    It's Florida law, everywhere in FL.
    It is unlawful for a non-EV to park in an EV parking spot, punishable by a $250.00 fine and may also be subject to towing.

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  • edited November -1
    The cones were still there on the Southbound Merritt Parkway Supercharger station Monday morning, Sept. 8, 2014. Even better, Code Orange had help. Someone thought to move one of the orange cones towards the front of the parking spot, following the suggestion of logicalthinker.

    Code Orange had to concede the ingenuity of logicalthinker's suggestion. Conducting a thought experiment, Code Orange came to realize that a bright orange cone was only useful if it was visible. Ergo, the more visible, the greater the deterrent effect. Why hadn't Code Orange thought of that?

    Code Orange paused to admire his handiwork as a Tesla owner with Massachusetts plates charging his Model S watched from the next parking spot.

    <a href="[email protected]/15176140291&quot; title="IMG_3649 by Arnold Fletcher, on Flickr"><img src="; width="480" height="640" alt="IMG_3649"></a>

    But the tranquility of the moment was shattered by the arrival of a giant ICE machine bearing down on the open Tesla charging stall to Code Orange's left. Code Orange sprang into action. He grabbed one of his cones and walked it out to the middle of the Tesla parking stall just as the giant ICE machine tried to occupy the spot. An impasse ensued. "I need to park," the ICEr yelled. And he had a point. Parking appeared to be one of the core functions of the parking area.

    But a thought slowly emerged, first slumbering in Code Orange's consciousness, then slowly rising through the cerebral cortex towards the formation of an identifiable idea. "Why not," Code Orange said, weakly at first, then with gathering strength. "Why not . . . park in the very next stall to the left, which is not a Tesla charging spot?"

    The ICEr looked at the Tesla charging stall. Then, he rotated his head approximately 3 degrees to the left and saw the completely empty non-Tesla parking spot. Still, he hesitated. Code Orange felt his resolve weaken. Already, he was violating the prime directive: Always have a path free to run away in the face of potential danger.

    Then, suddenly, the ICEr backed up approximately 16 inches, then pulled his ICE machine into the open non-Tesla parking spot.

    <a href="[email protected]/14992566618&quot; title="IMG_3651 by Arnold Fletcher, on Flickr"><img src="; width="480" height="640" alt="IMG_3651"></a>

    Code Orange approached the Model S owner with Massachusetts plates, who had witnessed the entire event. "I'm Code Orange," he said. "The De-ICE Man Cometh. Check the forums."

    Code Orange then sped off down the Merritt Parkway. Today, Greenwich, Ct. Tomorrow . . . Barstow?
  • edited November -1
    @logucalthunker, as an owner of several shopping centers in FL, I can tell you that the law you link applies only to public parking spaces, not those which are privately owned and on private property, such as in my shopping centers, which does include Suoerchargers. That's the vast majority of charging spots. I do occasionally use the public charging spot in front of city hall in Orlando (450 S. Orange), which is a legally enforceable EV charging spot. However, the law does not apply to or trump private parking space agreements between property owners and private charging operators. To do so would be against public policy - think about it - if very time I add a HPWC outside a hotel, I can create a new police enforcement obligation, with virtually no official municipal endorsement whatsoever, it would be anarchy. I stand uncorrected.
  • edited November -1
    @logicalthink, note that the picture you provide is apparently on a public street in a public right if way. You will find no such signage on private property, where all Superchargers and most private chargers are located. The exception may be quasi-governmental agencies, such as airport facilities, where the law may apply.
  • edited November -1
    Yeah actually that's on a privately owned lot.
    But thanks for your comments.
  • edited November -1
    The police are not obligated to monitor the charging stations.

    But if a violation is called in, they will come and ticket. Quite gladly, too, as it's five minutes of their time for $250.
  • edited November -1
    The only exception to this is partly along the lines of what you've said, if police don't have jurisdiction in the area.

    However in Pembroke Pines, where this charger (photo above) is located, police have jurisdiction in almost all the parking lots, oddly enough with the exception of this very parking lot and like two others (personal conversation with police). Some extensive EV advancing efforts however were undertaken by a friend of mine, resulting in the current situation, that even in this lot the police can now ticket.
  • edited November -1
    And besides, oh my goodness, every time I create a handicapped parking space I can create a new police enforcement obligation... The anarchy!!!
  • edited November -1
    MacDadayLady here.

    Glad this option is working. The gallery in Dallas has cones in their HPWC area in a covered garage. The real test will be busy holiday shopping season but maybe by then, it will be more ingrained.

    Next for Code Orange is to find appropriate attire and head gear.
  • edited November -1
    You cannot create a handicapped parking space anywhere. You want whenever you want, even as a private property owner. They are set by local regulation in most places and are a function of parking space ratios and zoning, agreed at the time if the permit issuance. Handicapped spaces are enforceable, but in the absence of specific agreements between the private owners and the municipality, there is no EV charging enforcement on private property. It is not in any way similar to handicapped parking in terms of enforceability.
  • edited November -1
    Apparently Chargepoint/Epcot had already placed orange cones in front of all 4 of the J1772 EV spots. These chargers only came on line two weeks ago.

    They are right in front of the Epcot park entrance next to two rows of handicap parking spaces.

    However, there aren't any cones in Hershey's Chocolate World and the 4 Chargepoint EV spots are frequently ICE'd.
  • edited November -1
    In California, the law specifies what information must appear on a sign to indicate that it's for EV charging only. With a proper sign, an ICE vehicle can be towed. But the law allows towing only if the property owner or authorized agent calls it in. If I called the towing company and told them that there's a vehicle parked on my lot in an EV space, they would come and tow it. Of course it wouldn't be honest to do that if I weren't the property owner, and the towing company and the vehicle owner wouldn't have a way of knowing who called it in, but I wouldn't put it past people to call it in anyway. If my car got towed for being in a spot where it's posted that I can't park, I wouldn't assume that it would be necessary to check with the property owner to see who called it in. So even though it's not technically an issue of police jurisdiction, it's not a good idea to park where you don't belong.

    I don't argue with people over parking spaces. I figure that one person will end up parking there, the other person will get mad, and the angry person will be the one who knows where the other person is parked. The angry person might do more than leave a note. I wouldn't advocate doing anything harmful, and I think that people who would damage anybody else's property should be arrested. But it doesn't mean I trust them enough to anger them and then leave my vehicle unattended.
  • edited November -1
    Most parking lots are on private property but are still subject to municipal enforcement. In Arizona, if a spot is marked for EV parking and/or charging and is occupied by a car not bearing alternative fuel plates, that owner can be fined $350 (ARS 28-876). The statute applies to all parking spaces, no distinction is made between public, private, right of way, etc.

    At least in Arizona, if you can enforce handicapped parking in a private lot you can also enforce dedicated EV parking and charging spots. It's pretty simple.
  • edited November -1
    @Amped, Exactly.
  • edited November -1
    Pungoteague_Dave said:
    "Tesla does not lease any of its charging locations in public spots."

    I think you are wrong about that. What I wrote was not some information I made up. In a video I watched Elon was asked about the sustainability of free superchargers and he said the following (writing from memory, wording is not exact):

    "For land we have lease agreements that are either free or for a very small amount. In some locations we even get paid to build the superchargers there. In long term electricity is free when it is offset by solar. The only cost is construction and minimal maintenance costs".

    The spam filter doesn't let me add links right now. But you can search for the following on Google:
    "Musk stated this last hurdle shouldn’t prove to be particularly high, as many sites are leased rent free."
  • edited November -1
    The legal arrangement and form of document varies from location to location. In most locations the agreement has both lease and reciprocal easement elements, with no money changing hands for rent (my sloppy reference to no lease). The complicating factor is that all affected tenants must also sign off, hence the reciprocal easement agreement, which is often attached to or referenced in the tenant leases, and must be amended before the charging spaces can be added. Elon is often loose with terminology, so called it a lease. However, the bottom line is that if you have a 4 per 1,000 square feet zoning requirement for parking spaces, you can't willy-nilly allocate any of them to charging-only, or add to your existing handicapped space inventory without municipal approval - and you cannot add to the local police workload without documented municipal acceptance of the specific responsibility. That; why many are specifically posted with a )nonenforceable) time limit for ICE parking in teh EV charging spaces. At most of our malls, we instruct security to encourage respect for EV charging spaces, but that it is not enforceable. That's a coast-to-coast situation for us, and we would never allow our security officers to either call the police or to tow a customer car for improperly parking in an EV charging stall.
  • edited November -1
    <I>we would never allow our security officers to either call the police or to tow a customer car for improperly parking in an EV charging stall.</I>

    Can they, at least, frown disapprovingly?
  • edited November -1
    PD, you are flatly wrong and not supporting progress. Not encouraging your security to call the police on EV-charging-spot blockers is tantamount to encouraging the practice.

    ICE-ing a charging spot is a ticketable offense in Florida. Feel free to test this fact anywhere I roam.
  • edited November -1

    The definition of "public" property and "private" property came into play in Washington State when they outlawed smoking in establishments and some rulings were made. Every State may have different rules and interpretations.

    In Washington, if you do business with the public it is considered a public place. You cannot smoke in a bar, restaurant or cigar lounge if it is open to the public. Smoking is only allowed in private clubs that allows access only to members and because that is considered private property.

    It is much like how they got around all the rules in some dry towns or counties in other areas.

    The rules evolve at different paces in different places.
  • edited November -1
    @ PD,

    <i>"... we would never allow our security officers to either call the police or to tow a customer car for improperly parking in an EV charging stall."</i>

    Why the *** not? As an owner of the establishment that installed specific parking spaces for EV charging, you should be enforcing the rules for the spaces you voluntarily installed at your malls. You've clearly made a business decision that you would rather lose an EV-driving customer over getting ICEd than lose an ICE-driving customer over getting towed.
  • edited November -1

    Also, in Washington State EV spots must be identified with painted green markings. ICEing the spot results in a fine.
  • edited November -1
    @Agent Orange

    Excellent execution of pioneer justice.
    Carry on.
  • edited November -1
    Considering that many states allow vehicles to be towed, it comes down to either a customer being towed and realizing that it happened because he parked illegally or a customer with an EV being mad at you for not enforcing the policy. Either way somebody will get angry, but in only one case can you be sure the anger is directed at you.
  • edited November -1
    OOOooohhh. Good one, tes-s.

    Soon to become agent chameleon.
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