Model 3

Superchargers - The Ultimate Solution

edited November -1 in Model 3
In the Tesla forums, Superchargers seem to be highly debated. Who should have access, whether the access should be included with a Tesla or not, if it seems fair that someone who paid over $100,000 for their Tesla should have to wait for someone who bought the base Model 3.

I say, for Teslas, Supercharging should be included. The Supercharging network already gives Tesla a competitive advantage over other manufacturers whether it is included or not. I think including access to it would set them even further apart from the "competition".

Personally, I think it would be wise for them to "sell" quick charging capability to people who purchase their vehicle from other manufacturers. Help turn the Superchargers into profit centers. Use the capital to build more Superchargers. Allegedly, even the Chevy Bolt is said to be DC quick charging capable, but with what? Where will you be able to DC quick charge your Bolt?

I don't believe Tesla has ever been opposed to sharing their network. No other manufacturer seems to care enough about it to "pony" up any dough to help expand the network. With as large as the network already is, there would need to be a significant buy in. Sure other manufacturers have talked about trying to create a standard, but they all seem to want this infrastructure funded by someone else. I think most of them support the idea of it being funded by the government.
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Comments

  • edited November -1
    M3 will pay yearly fee based on several subscription choices, paid yearly , PayPal, check, or other electronic payment method.


    No freebooters.. Most M3 are going to be townies. The travelers need to pay up...with usage of Supercharger S with the M3
  • edited April 2016
    So, the current option is pay a flat $3,000 upfront fee or no access on all cars? Hard to justify the economics of that as an energy expense especially if you'd only be taking distance trips a couple times/year.
  • edited November -1
    Though your idea of offering usage of the supercharger to say, Leaf or Bolt owners as an aftermarket thing sounds good, I don't know that their cars can handle it. Rather, the wiring in their cars or at the very least, the charge port on those cars would need to accommodate the SC. I don't know that any adapter can handle the amperage.

    vperl, you nor does anyone else knows for a fact that there will be a fee for M≡ owners. They may very well adopt the same approach as the did with the MS. The standard battery pack cars would pay an "enabling" fee, where as the higher packs will have the cost built into the car like the MS85s.

    Though this is just speculation/uncertain which is why I said "may".
  • edited April 2016
    I don't believe the Leaf could handle DC fast charging at all in its current state (I could be wrong there), but I have read that the Bolt would be capable of handling DC fast charging. Only where would they get it.

    I am sure the Tesla connector is somehow proprietary, so I guess people that owned other electric cars would need an adapter. I am sure they could build and sell an adapter that would work with the Superchargers. At a cost of course to the person who chose not to buy a Tesla. :)

    The truth is Tesla has already stated that they do not yet know what Supercharging will look like for the Model 3.

    jordanrichard might be right. Supercharging is now included with the Model S and Model X, but it hasn't always been that way. It used to be included only with the larger battery packs.

    I expect to use Supercharging so infrequently, that if I will need to pay for it...I would rather pay per use then pay a flat fee. I don't take many vacations so I just don't see myself using it that much. I did however choose a Tesla because of the freedom Superchargers give Tesla owners. Well that and I like the way they look much better than the competition.
  • Keep in mind that model 3 will have smaller batteries due to increased efficiency and reduced weight of the car.
    A 44 kwh battery for example would only take about 1 minutes to reach 80% charge. If Tesla manages to improve charging rate by 25% (I think possible) by launch of M3 you only need about 12 minutes for the base battery to achieve 80%. That alone will allow more M3s to charge at a given number of superchargers when traveling.
  • edited April 2016
    Superchargers are already a 'Profit Center' because the current business model allows Tesla Motors to sell more cars. Just the simple fact that thus far they have been available at no additional charge has been a marketing boon for Tesla Motors. Superchargers are almost certainly a big part of the reason why Tesla Motors has gained in excess of $325,000,000 in revenue in the past week. That is about enough to build 812 Supercharger locations, each with eight charging spaces, increasing the current count by around 6,500 in all. And this is at an amount that Tesla Motors already considers to be between 1/35th (2.86%) and 1/42nd (2.38%) of Model ☰ revenue. Even with only half that much revenue on hand, Tesla Motors would be in great shape.
  • edited April 2016
    @Red Sage ca us

    You are probably right there. I do know that Supercharger access was a big part of my decision to buy a Tesla. Well that and they just look sexier than the alternatives. They have been selling the only cars with 200+ mile range so far.

    The Bolt will change that, but I haven't seen any timelines from other car manufacturers offering a 200+ mile vehicle.

    Still think it would be great to charge cars from other manufacturers a fee per use to use the Superchargers. May really help build out the network.
  • edited April 2016
    Leaf can DC charge. I have that option now and it enables some very nice roadtrips around OR and WA. 530 miles (over 3 days) on a southern OR coast camping trip, just to name one such trip. But no way to keep battery temps down. and it MAXES at 40-ish kW. and you have to stop every hour-ish to charge to get to the next DC charger, of which there is only one stall! THESE are all advantages to Tesla Supercharging and their battery tech. 2 years and counting...keep at it Elon.
  • edited November -1
    Here's a need crying out for a solution. An independent for-profit charging / supercharging / battery swapping business. Like gas stations of the ICE era, but to service the quick charging EV's of the future. Ideally they would/could service Teslas, Chevy's, Nissans, (even BMW's), and help enable the EV/Green revolution that Elon keeps talking about. It would be supplemental to the Tesla network. There would be opportunities for additional revenue (Starbucks, Kwik-E marts, etc) while the customer's car is being charged....
  • edited April 2016
    @John.tara.ford;
    FYI, Smaller packs don't take less time to charge, they are not like gas tanks. Charge rate is related to battery chemistry, temperature and voltage, and will tend to share same or similar profiles to the larger packs with the same type of cells. That is why the competition with limited range and very small battery packs do not have a time advantage. Larger packs have a time advantage in that the effective amount of range on a per-time basis increases more quickly than smaller packs. Charging rates also dramatically slow as the pack nears maximum capacity. I'm New battery chemistries will improve charging time across the board, and larger packs will provide greater charging speed benefits in terms of range than smaller packs.
  • edited November -1
    IMHO superchargers enable long trips, and we all don't want to wait. If we have to wait (crowded superchargers) because everyone ahead of me is on long trips, I have no complaint; but if I am waiting for people who can (and should) otherwise charge at home I will be upset.

    It shouldn't be free, and it shouldn't be a big lump sum charge like Tesla used to charge for S60--$2k is not justifiable for people who may only need SC a few times a year.

    Why not a pay-per-use? Tesla should just charge the lowest rate that energy companies charge in that area, so owners have no incentive to use it for daily commutes, and long distance trip takers can benefit by paying the same rate as if they were charging at home at nights.

    Afterall, the benefits of SC is enormous compare to other EV chargers for its charging speed.
  • edited November -1
    Tesla could be looking at a long play on the Super Charger stations. It could open up to other EV brands in the future. However I think in the short term (next 5 years) it will be Tesla's ace in the hole for pushing Tesla EV's to the masses.

    Once Tesla tops out car it sales (though that looks like it is a ways to go) and continues to saturate the world with Super Stations it could have capacity and footprint to be the world's largest and most profitable EV 'gas' station chain.
  • edited April 2016
    If Tesla's goal is to promote Electric Cars over ICE Cars they will open up Supercharging to all EVs with a range greater then 200 miles. If they are trying to compete against other EVs they will not open up the superchargers to other EVs. The supercharger system is the perfect layout to enable long range EV usage, all of the other DC charger systems were not designed for and do not support support long range EV usage. Bringing additional manufacture's cars on to the system, paid by either the car owners or the car manufactures pays for more chargers and more charge locations. The system gets better for all long range EV's. I do not expect Chevy will support the supercharger system, they are vested in ICE cars. It would be up to the Bolt owner to pay of the usage of superchargers. Same goes for the coming 200mile Leaf.

    Would it not be crazy wonderful to have Musk announce the he is selling the best Bolt option, "nation wide travel". Buy whatever long range EV you want but go to Tesla to make it wonderful. I can see the day when folks are buying modification kits, pulling out CHAdeMO and CCS inputs and replacing with a smaller simpler Tesla power inlet.
  • edited April 2016
    Don't worry, there will be hundred and thousand of charging stations popping up in the next years at drugstores, restaurants, grocery stores.

    That's what will make the customer come and buy your products instead of going to the competitors.
  • edited April 2016
    Don't worry, there will be hundred and thousand of charging stations popping up in the next years at drugstores, restaurants, grocery stores.

    That's what will make the customer come and buy your products instead of going to the competitors.
  • edited April 2016
    The cost of rapidly charging an EV is about infrastructure cost and the cost of the capacity of the service ... not the kWh rate of electrons. Tesla, or any future charging station operator, must recognize this simple fact and charge based on time hooked up.
  • edited November -1
    milesbb, Even if Tesla offered, for a one time fee, supercharging to Bolt or Leaf owners, I can see Chevy and Nissan telling those owners that they will be voiding the warranty by doing so.

    For those proposing a pay as you go fee, Tesla may be restricted from doing such because that would make them a reseller of electricity.
  • @jordanrichard,
    There are plenty of pay-to-charger chargers (or EVSEs) out there. It isn't usually a problem.
  • edited April 2016
    My Leaf came with Level 1 DC fast charge port (CHAdeMO) and L2 port (J1772) as standard. From the Tesla store you can buy adaptors that convert Chademo or J1172 connectors to the Tesla connector. But not the other way around. That stops non-Tesla EV owners charging at Tesla superchargers. But you all probably already knew that.
  • edited April 2016
    richard inquired, "Why not a pay-per-use?"

    I'll answer this as if I haven't done so at all in the past couple of years. Because the amount of money it would cost to process the billing transaction is more than it takes to Deliver the electricity for free. In other words, if the fee were high enough to make it worth charging a fee, that is to make it profitable, the cost to the consumer would be higher per mile than the cost of gasoline. Which would make the whole thing less palatable, because it would be both less convenient and less economical than buying a gasoline powered car. That's why not.
  • edited November -1
    wj: Since at least 2013, maybe earlier, the Supercharger network has been open to use by other manufacturers. Elon Musk has said repeatedly that as long as those cars can accept a full power Supercharger session it would be allowed. All he asks is that there be no per-use fees of any kind charged to the end user. He believes that the relative cost should always be built into the cost of the car, and that the details be worked out business-to-business as to the amount paid due percentage of participation. The problem is, no one has had a long range electric vehicle with a battery pack sufficient to accept a Supercharger connection. Now that the Chevrolet BOLT is on the horizon, General Motors has specifically stated they will NOT be joining the Supercharger network, nor building out a charging network of their own.
  • edited April 2016
    Wow, so the leaf will only accept a charge half as fast as the Bolt and about a quarter as fast as a Tesla. Guess I didn't realize that. Geez, you would have to make them pay for the time they were parked to make any money anyway. :)

    Red Sage ca us
    I knew Tesla wasn't opposed to sharing, but I guess I figured he must have said that the other company would have to chip in on the cost of the infrastructure.
  • edited November -1
    The pay per kWh issue varies by state, I've read. States that treat it like a utility are where you see per-minute cost structures.
  • edited April 2016
    @biggestfan - whoops I got my terminology around the wrong way. The Leaf has Level 3 (not Level 1) charging via the CHAdeMO port, 480V DC direct into the batteries, and will charge to 80% from empty in 20 to 30 minutes. The L2 charger via J1772 is 32A AC and goes via the inverter, it will charge it to 80% from empty in about 2 to 3 hours. How does the Bolt compare with that?

    I have only ever used L1 charging from my ordinary 15A garage wall socket overnight, it would take about 6 to 8 hours to fully charge it (it actually only draws 10A @ 230V). I just plug it in every night and it's always at 80% well before I need to drive it again the next morning.
  • edited April 2016
    @bj
    That is pretty cool. Only reason I hadn't bought a Leaf is because my round trip drive to work each day is 80 miles. I think making the trip with electric would be great, but since it gets fairly cold in Minnesota sometimes I have viewed 200+ miles/charge the point where an electric would make sense because I know that range goes down when the HVAC system on an electric is running.

    I do think that it is pretty cool that there are going to be at least a couple of options that will meet that spec somewhat soon.
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