Model 3

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Model 3 Ships with Autopilot 2.5

edited November -1 in Model 3
Tesla has a new Autopilot ‘2.5’ hardware suite with more computing power for autonomous driving adding a second GPU in addition to the driver-facing camera.

https://electrek.co/2017/08/09/tesla-autopilot-2-5-hardware-computer-autonomous-driving/
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Comments

  • edited August 2017
    Interesting. I was wondering if they would need any additional computing power to process all of the cameras. I look forward to someone taking apart the new Drive PX2 and see what exactly changed.

    I wonder if there will be any other changes by the time I get my car at the end of 2018
  • edited August 2017
    Am I reading that article right? NVIDIA itself doesn't think the hardware in Teslas is powerful enough for full Level 5 autonomy? A big reason I'm buying this car is for future full self-driving and I'll be pissed if they say they can't do on the included hardware after all!

    Carl
  • edited August 2017
    I agree with Carl... big difference for me in leasing or purchasing is the future self-driving functionality.
  • edited August 2017
    That's what NVIDIA is saying, but what does NVIDIA want? Tesla (and everyone else) to buy more and better GPUs . . . so take that for what it's worth.
  • edited August 2017
    From a legal perspective, Tesla will have to upgrade any hardware requirements free of charge, for those who purchased Tesla 3 or S/X with HW 2.0 or better, for autonomous driving... Otherwise, it will be a major class action, and I see no reason, based upon Elon Musk's straightforwardness, that it would go in that direction... Enjoy the car, enjoy the ride... Hardware and Software upgrades are part of owning Tesla...
  • edited August 2017
    Tesla just stated that they will upgrade current systems if required.........free of charge.
  • edited August 2017
    @SeaDoc:
    "From a legal perspective, Tesla will have to upgrade any hardware requirements free of charge, for those who purchased Tesla 3 or S/X with HW 2.0 or better, for autonomous driving..."

    I was thinking about that... But it's possible they might not feel obligated to upgrade you for free unless you pay for FSD when you purchase the car. If you choose to buy the car without paying for FSD up front couldn't they say "Well you bought the car without FSD so you have exactly what you paid for?" I only planned on paying for it when it was available (might be a few years for the laws to be changed) and a lot of people here on the forum have said they will do the same.

    NVIDIA saying the hardware isn't powerful enough concerns me greatly because FSD is a huge part of my justification for purchasing the car.

    Carl
  • edited November -1
    Elon already said that if the old hardware is not up to the task, then they would upgrade for free. Per the Electrek article from today https://electrek.co/2017/08/09/tesla-autopilot-2-5-hardware-computer-autonomous-driving/
  • edited August 2017
    @Teslaguy:
    "Tesla just stated that they will upgrade current systems if required.........free of charge."

    That's a relief. Where do they say that?

    Thanks,
    Carl
  • edited August 2017
    @Xerogas:
    "Elon already said that if the old hardware is not up to the task, then they would upgrade for free."

    The article you cite does not say that anywhere. All it says is "Tesla CEO Elon Musk even said that they could eventually upgrade the system if it can’t achieve full autonomy." Note the word "_could_" which is not the same as "_will_." Nor does it say the upgrade would be available to all owners of AP2 cars. Nor does it say the upgrade would be free.

    Carl
  • edited August 2017
    Carl ... this is a quote from the article:

    "However, we still expect to achieve full self-driving capability with safety more than twice as good as the average human driver without making any hardware changes to HW 2.0. If this does not turn out to be the case, which we think is highly unlikely, we will upgrade customers to the 2.5 computer at no cost"

    I'm not sure if the quote is from Musk or a Tesla spokesperson.
  • edited August 2017
    I guess to be clear, the quote does not say what Tesla will do if the 2.5 computer is not good enough, but I think it is reasonable to assume that they will also upgrade 2.5 computers if those also turn out to be insufficient.

    Although, one thing I wonder about is what "sufficient" means. Maybe more powerful computers will allow the car to be even smarter / safer?
  • edited August 2017
    so the model 3 ap is more advanced the the model s? Nice
  • edited August 2017
    @Xerogas

    There is this quote from Tesla:
    “However, we still expect to achieve full self-driving capability with safety more than twice as good as the average human driver without making any hardware changes to HW 2.0. If this does not turn out to be the case, which we think is highly unlikely, we will upgrade customers to the 2.5 computer at no cost.”

    But that only says that Tesla would upgrade HW2 cars such as The Model S and Model X from last year to the current HW2.5. It says nothing about possible needed to HW2.5 as used in the Model 3.

    NVIDIA says that HW2.5 is not powerful enough for full autonomy:
    "Nvidia believes that 2 SoCs and 2 GPUs, like its ‘Autochauffeur’ Drive PX2 platform, would be required on its platform to achieve self-driving capability."

    Tesla says:
    “The internal name HW 2.5 is an overstatement, and instead it should be called something more like HW 2.1. This hardware set has some added computing and wiring redundancy, which very slightly improves reliability, but it does not have an additional Pascal GPU.”

    So NVIDIA believes it would take 2 SoCs and 2 GPUs but HW2.5 only has 1 SoC and 1 GPU. So, according to NVIDIA the current hardware in the Model 3, and what Tesla says they would upgrade HW2 cars to if needed, is not powerful enough.

    Does Tesla say anywhere that if additional hardware beyond HW2.5 is required to achieve FSD that they will upgrade us for free?

    Carl
  • edited August 2017
    Committing to upgrade hardware at no charge is a huge financial burden. Hopefully Tesla is actually turning a profit by that point in time.

    I do agree that it becomes a legal imperative for Tesla to do that for those who have already purchased FSD, but to avoid a costly hardware upgrade on 500,000+ cars, I suspect Tesla may try to increase the cost of the post-purchase FSD activation (if it does require new hardware).

    I'm sure regulatory requirements, though, will push this years down the road (pun intended).
  • edited August 2017
    Coincidentally, on Jack Rickard's EVTV show yesterday he profiled the Nvidia card in the Model S. Nice little backgrounder.

    Of course to confuse the issue, his photo of the board looks different than the physical card in the elektrek article pulled from an actual car. It has TWO GPUs (or is that two SoCs?).

    For those new to this and wondering what a 'GPU' is, it's simply a specialized microprocessor. The acronym stands for Graphical Processor Unit. GPUs were initially developed for personal computers to augment the computer's CPU (Central Processing Unit) in order to better run 3D gaming software (Nvidia was a pioneer in computer gaming hardware). GPUs don't run as fast as CPUs, but they are architected to handle multiple streams of data at once (parallel processing).

    What I know about systems for driving autonomous cars would fit in a thimble, but it's not hard to imagine with all the telemetry that must come in moment to moment from all the various sensors in an autonomous vehicle, it's not too difficult to see why a processor that specializes in handling multiple data streams is incorporated into these systems. ;>


    Here's the link to the show. The Nvidia discussion begins around 44m.
    youtube com/watch?v=I3MfYT9QkD8
  • edited August 2017
    Tesla makes 25%-28% on their cars. There is, however, the little matters of the supercharger network, the giga-factory, the service centers. This is a very young manufacturer and these things need to be done. The fact that Tesla is doing them now means their position is more than dominant and that they will continue to rely on this investment far into the future.

    The 'shorts' are taking it in the shorts right now and it is becoming increasingly difficult to maintain their position. Tesla is, after all, an energy company and not an auto manufacturer. The are starting to control cars, batteries, solar systems, and roofing systems. This is going to be one huge advantage going into the future.
  • edited November -1
    Coastal_Cruiser,
    Very informative, but know ahead of time this is a 2hr show.
  • edited August 2017
    Thanx Craig. Right. That's why I gave a time marker. ;>
  • edited August 2017
    @Carl "But it's possible they might not feel obligated to upgrade you for free unless you pay for FSD when you purchase the car. If you choose to buy the car without paying for FSD up front couldn't they say "Well you bought the car without FSD so you have exactly what you paid for?""

    Wait. you want Tesla to hardware upgrade your car to make FSD work when you didn't purchase it? You do realize that the price for adding FSD or EAP increases if you don't order it with the car, but these are always available to you after purchase. However, the price is subject to change. You take the risk of whatever the price will be when you purchase FSD.
  • edited August 2017
    Even if they need to upgrade the processing unit for FSD it will be "Free" in the sense that the hardware upgrade will be included at no extra charge when we cough up a $4,000 upgrade to turn on FSD. It will only actually be free for the people who pony up the $3k at time of purchase - which judging from the forum responses will be a very small group.

    I am a bit more concerned if the LIDAR-advocates are correct and they need to add one of those. That will be some serious $$$
  • edited August 2017
    "Thanx Craig. Right. That's why I gave a time marker. ;>"

    In his comment section someone suggested watching his videos at 1.5 speed. I tried it at 1.25 and it was much easier to watch. Still over my head though.
  • edited August 2017
    Sounds like the system board is designed in the way that it can be changed if there is a need. That is nice to know.
  • edited August 2017
    @dyefrog yeah, he's a real "slow talker". I actually set it at 1.5x and left it playing while working. After a while, it's easy to forget you've even sped it up. :-)
  • edited August 2017
    @TexasBob:
    "Even if they need to upgrade the processing unit for FSD it will be 'Free' in the sense that the hardware upgrade will be included at no extra charge when we cough up a $4,000 upgrade to turn on FSD. "

    How do you know this? Source?

    Thanks,
    Carl
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