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Buffett and BYD, the Chinese competitor

Buffett and BYD, the Chinese competitor

Warren is getting involved with BYD, whose e6 is going to enter the market here in 2012. Its range is about 185 mi., price ~$42K. 0-60 in 10 sec., seats 5. No competition, really, but they'll be able to supply large volume immediately, I'd think.
Report: http://news.cnet.com/8301-11128_3-20028135-54.html
Specs: http://www.byd.com/showroom.php?car=e6

searcher | 13 January, 2011

Surely there must be some opinions out there on world trade policies which certainly is relevant to the conversation{BYD Co. Brianh mentioned etc.} Tesla will surely be in the mix of world trade and who is able to purchase etc. Hegemony in western pacific certainly plays into economic issues, and other issues that constitute world trade environment. Or is this a "head in the sand" issue. Somebody with real knowledge of world trade weigh in. Another issue I don't know that much about, would like to get some opinions on this issue. Don't like the US being in soo much debt to any other country. Can we get out of this debt and how quick. Keep everything on level trading field would be good idea. Lot of our major manufacturing componets have been virtually taken over by other countries so where does that leave the US? This seems a relevant discussion in relation to Tesla and competitors. Somebody just tell me where we are doing well in exports, surely some areas. If anybody has a clue to our overall export plan I would like to hear it{talking about USA here}. If my concerns about China are unfounded would really like to hear this and why.

searcher | 15 January, 2011

Nobody going here ,huh. Can't believe we don't have anybody conversant in world trade. Do I detect maybe a sense of foreboding or maybe even fear. World trade absolutely relates to cars as does national economic and fiscal policies. A lot of topics are soo much more relative to one another than many people seem to realize or want to realize.

Volker.Berlin | 15 January, 2011

OT.

Bubba2000 | 15 January, 2011

Many people just do not buy cars for basic transportation. They look for a combination of value, comfort, capacity, reliability, technology, efficiency, performance,safety, image, etc. Otherwise, we all would be buying Kia, Hyundai, Geo, Yugo, etc. The Tesla Model S will have to define its place in this universe.

The Model S needs to project an image of environmental and energy efficiency, performance, durability, value, practicality, power. It has got to be cool and have the sex appeal. That is what BMW does.

Competition from a Chinese BYD? Duh... how about the Ford Pinto? Seriously, may be the Chinese will get it right eventually, like the Japanese did, but not anytime soon. Anybody familiar with their power tools, instruments?

searcher | 15 January, 2011

Bubba2000, I concur with what you say. Now go back a few post and explain the enigma of the products we are paying for at{unnamed} and most other store many of which aren't worth bringing home. They are not particularly cheap anymore either. Compare this with the new Chinese warfighter plane, tested while our Secretary of Defense was visiting. This plane, it is said, could exceed the capability of the F22 {Raptor} which a few short months ago was supposed to be ahead of anything in the world by twenty years? Wonder how this is possible? We have ships in the western pacific that individually have the firepower to sink the combined navies of the world five times. Hate to lose any of these. They are not there for nothing either. We have allies in the area;Australia, Japan, South Korea, and so hopefully at least a friend in China.

searcher | 15 January, 2011

Bubba2000, Something strange to me also is I wonder if a lot of the inferior tools etc. are not actually being made by american comapnies and investors that have just moved over to where the cheap labor is thus depriving us of jobs and quality products. In the meantime making the communist government a ton of money as well as lining their greedy pockets.

Brian H | 16 January, 2011

Searcher, keep checking. That "J20" or whatever it's called is almost as advanced as Western 1985 tech. But not quite. It would get wiped by an F14, F15, F18, etc. Too big and fat to survive a dogfight, too poorly stealthed to survive a long-range engagement, too big fat and slow to work as a bomber (easily picked off by advanced radar and missiles) etc.

The amazing thing is not how well the bear dances, but that it dances at all.

searcher | 16 January, 2011

Brianh, Will do. Good news from you, hope you are right. Of course you know The F22 Raptor program has been put on the shelf. I am not in favor of this move. Stay peaceful by staying twenty years ahead is my idea. Peace, in case someone accuses us of getting "off topic" is relevant, not too many people buying Tesla's in all out war. Wish you could get copy of show I saw on military or history channel about future dogfights etc. and how one F22 could probably take on about four of the advanced French airfighter. Shots being called in to big planes 100 or so miles from the dogfight. Unbelivable technology. Of course we have to remember the mig's from Korean war, souped up post world war II Russian jets if I am correct. Thing is, don't know who souped them up. I do know the Russians are superbly good with planes. They are probably the ones that "hot rodded the Migs". Just to stay on topic electic cars seem to be an ideal car for China. Heard recently what their power grid runs off of, think it was coal. Also haven't they, in the past several years, completed the worlds largest hydroelectic project? Don't know the topography of China that well but bet they are ideally suited for hydroelectric grid. Hope we never have to fight these people or anyone else for that matter. They are for the very large majority a very good people I believe. Just wish we could get out of soo much debt to this country or any other country for that matter. Will be interesting to see how their electric car you mentioned works out. Trying to stay somewhat on topic here.

theBike45 | 20 January, 2011

Buffet's been involved with investing his Berkshire funds
in BYD for almost two years now. They have Volt killer called ***DM (Dual Mode, i.e. EREV)which has about 50% greater electric driving range, actually looks better (no big deal), three year longer battery warranty, recharge to 50% in 10 minutes, probably
20 to 35% cheaper than Volt. On paper the Volt cannot compete with this car. But the EREV technology I consider obsolete, with the improvement of battteries in terms of weight, cost and capacity.
Warren Buffet, the Great American tycoon, helping a Chinese company wipe out American businesses. What a national treasure he is.

searcher | 25 January, 2011

Just heard that in North Carolina alone I believe it was said that in over recent years over 2000 textile jobs have been lost. Give anyone three guesses where most of them went and first two answers don't count. This infuriates me because for the people who can afford to buy Tesla's {various prfessionals} in the USA they must realize their services also depend on the working class having money for their services and it is always good if the working man has got a little discretionary spending money even for the professionals, and money needs to be in circulation. Wonder what would would happen if labor unions tried to organize in China. Although I have a pretty good idea. As I said before I know the Chinese working people are working for peanuts but it is so much better than they have ever had it before probably they are not making a fuss. But also try to imagine what would happen if they did make a fuss about being defrauded. Not to hard to imagne either I suppose. Poor people in China, they are being ripped off by more powerful forces than themselves and it aint all the Chinese government dear friends, its those American companies that are following the cheap labor and pulling their plants out of America. I wish someone would start a chain store general dept. store like the biggee and sell primarily made in USA products, better quality, little higer price. I would trade there. This thing with our trade imbalances has got to end and fast. Remember Sam Walton's early emphasis on "Made In USA" well like his dog "Old ROY" he is "Gone But Not Forgotten". What happened to this company anyway.

jsanok | 26 January, 2011

Like Ross Perot said:

Globalization

When their wages come up to six dollars an hour and your wages come down to six dollars an hour.

Congratulations, you are now globalized.

searcher | 26 January, 2011

jsanok, That's it. You hit the nail on the head. Well said. Now what is this economic model going to look like?

qwk | 26 January, 2011

The problem is most Americans want to buy the cheapest item they can. All that matters is upfront cost. That is the main reason we are where we are.

Mehdi | 26 January, 2011

qwk, I think alot of people are coming around and are willing to pay MORE for the MADE IN USA label. One of many reasons I decided to buy the Model S as oppose to an Audi or a BMW.
The problem now is that you can't buy MADE IN USA anymore. Have you seen a TV, Camera, GPS, DVD player, or any electronic gadget that is made in the US? I've tried and could not find one.
I can't even buy a dress shirt that is made in the US, what I buy from Macy's are made in Bangladesh.

qwk | 26 January, 2011

People are still just as cheap as they ever were.

It's true that consumer electronics are mostly made overseas.

I disagree with clothing though. There are a few companies in the US that make clothes here. They are $$ though.

mact3333 | 26 January, 2011

Searcher,

What you are concerned about is just scratching the surface...look at the real "big picture"...it all starts with the Federal Reserve printing money out of thin air...the Federal Reserve are private bankers that control our money supply, hence create bubbles and inflation...they have nothing to do with our govt yet they truly control the world let alone our govt...our dollar has been devalued by 98% since the Fed Reserve Act of 1913.

Thats why we work so much harder to make ends meet but we get no where as the dollar cont's to depreciate hence making things we need more expensive...but the powers that be keep the charade going by allowing the dollar to fall as we print more dollars not backed by gold anymore...we took all the factories overseas 30 years ago hence decimating the middle class here...we are now a paper pushing service based economy , which isnt healthy...wonder why corporate profits are at all time highs yet unemployment is still 9.5%(real unemployment is 15%+ according to U6 rates)...wonder why they keep telling us CPI inflation is so low(because they take out all things expensive such as food and gas)....fortune 500 co's want high stock prices and bonuses, they arent concerned about the health of the middle class.

We allow the Chinese to devalue their currency so they can cont to sell us their goods at cheap prices...its a race to the bottom regarding currencies...all countries are trying to devalue their currency at the same time...the US has incentive to do this not only because they want cheaper exports to rise but we also want to keep interest rates low and our currency devalued so we can pay back the interest on our debt with devalued dollars.

But the US tries to maintain control by forcing commodities(ie-oil) to be traded in US dollars artificially giving some strength to our currency...wanna know who opposes oil being traded in US dollars?...Iran, Iraq, Venezuela...now what do those 3 countries have in common.

There have been 3 US presidents that have taken steps to take power away from the powerful banker elite and the Fed Reserve(since 1913) and give the US govt(you and me) the right to print its own money without paying interest...Andrew Jacksom, Abe Lincoln and JFK...now whats do those 3 presidents have in common?

So as you can see, there are things going on much much bigger than your concern about our trade relations with China. If you think Im making this stuff up, spend 1 hr researching this and I think you will be surprised.

Now arent you glad you asked for this opinion on a Tesla board?...:).

mact3333 | 26 January, 2011

Also, since you are buying a Tesla, you should research the person in whom this company derives its name...Nikola Tesla was the greatest inventor of our time...he created AC current, radio, robotics, tesla coil, etc....he has 100's of patents...his work on magnetics is unbelievable...he showed how you could wirelessly transmit electricity 100 years ago yet we still dont do this...if JP Morgan(the banker) doesnt blackball him, Tesla was in the process of giving free energy to the entire world in the early 1900's.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eoY_7mbm5ng

qwk | 26 January, 2011

^^ I couldn't have said it better myself! 100% truth.

Timo | 26 January, 2011

"Free" as in "It'll cost you a bit more than what you get from the wall". There was absolutely no "free energy" in any of the working Tesla inventions (and there are quite a few that don't work).

mact3333 | 26 January, 2011

Timo,

You do know we have had cars running on tap water for over 20 years right?...wonder why this technology isnt being released...google Stanley Meyers and free energy...and this isnt hydrolysis(breaking up water to create hydrogen and oxygen and burning the hydrogen) either, which takes too much energy to accomplish.

If there was no more oil in the ground, I guarantee you this technology along with many others will be allowed to come into the public eye and flourish.

Tesla started it in early 1900's...Tesla wanted free energy for all but Morgan stopped financing him once he realized he "couldnt put a meter on it"....getting back to modern times, once the oil has been tapped completely and the pigs have been fed, I bet we will see some amazing things in our future...but for now we will have the Model S!...:).

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uGRsQZx6zWA

Timo | 26 January, 2011

You got a bit backwards "Tesla wanted energy to be free for all", not "Tesla wanted free energy for all". None of his working inventions are "free energy" any more than any modern way of producing energy.

Stanley Meyers water fuel cell was a hoax. Pure and simple. Just like all the other perpetual machine claims. It runs by gullibility of people much like homeopathy.

searcher | 26 January, 2011

Thanks everyone, this actually all does relate to Tesla Motors and electric vehicles very much. At least now I don't feel so alone in my frustrations. mac3333 especially was informed by your discourse on the large players. I know that most of the people on this website know the names of some of the big globalist groups{want to run the world as a one world government}. Soon I figure the "man in the street" is going to know the names of some of these groups which will remain unamed here but when this happens it will be "Katy bar the door" because the great mass of common people will be able to figure it out and will not stand for it. I have heard some of these globalist groups are already really worried about their status. An interesting thing in reference to clothes. I heard someone jokingly comment "we,{the USA} couldn't fight a war we wouldn't have anybody to make our uniforms". Oddly I found out later that the military has always had a contract or contracts for uniforms to be made in the USA, which I thought well that's not such a bad idea.Yes mac3333 I know there are powerful groups that think they know how to do it right and may be well intenioned, but they don't. But there is another even larger player involved here to and you probably know who I am talking about but won't get into this aswe are likely to inflame many emotions and get really off on a tangent as I have done before. But all in all it is vital to Tesla that we as private citizens come together and create some change in some of the policies that would be detrimental to the sale of Tesla's and many other products. So all in all I think we have kept fairly on track and relevant to sale of EV's and other products. You mentioned Andrew Jackson, Abe Lincoln, and JFK and their commonality. I know the cmmonality of Abe lincoln an JFK. Know that Andrew Jackson was trying to get rid of Federal Reserve Bank but he was not assasinated. He did some things I am grateful for{defeated the army and general that had defeated Napoleons mighty forces with a ragtag army in the "Battle Of New Orleans thus saving the USA} but didn't approve of institution of the "Trail of Tears" as I am a big empathic admirer of the native americans.

mact3333 | 27 January, 2011

Timo,

You do your dd and I will do mine!...:).

In due time my friend...but then again I also believe in Bob Lazar, cold fusion, element 115, etc...:).

BTW, I tend to be a skeptic myself given that I do have a phd degree in the sciences myself.

I think regarding "free energy" we are talking semantics...I dont mean the energy is truly free, I am saying it defies the conservation of energy principal(ie- you get more then you put in which cannot happen according to modern scientists)...this is where I differ in opinion.

And yes I realize that Stanley Meyers is a controversial person/subject but I believe in his patents...when the oil runs out, we will see the truth.

Ramon123 | 27 January, 2011

BYD represents no threat to the Model S, and I doubt whether Musk wouldn't be happy to see them succeed. What is directly in BYD's line of fire is the Chevy Volt, and the Volt appears more than just a little vulnerable - it appears to not be competitive with
BYD's EREV sedan. Reason? BYD has a longer lasting battery pack and offers three more years of warranty than GM's Volt and their battery pack replacement costs far less and is required far less often. Their pack also provides almost 60 miles of driving range to the Volt's 40. It also can be recharged to 50% of capacity in 10 minutes, versus hours for the Volt. A mystery is why the Volt battery wasn't designed to allow for rapid charging - we all know that how fast a battery is charged has little to nothing to do with the battery's lifespan. The clincher? The BYD will retail at $28K, while the Volt is base stickered at $42K. Actually I think the BYD looks better than the Volt, but , of course, that's not
saying a whole lot. On paper, the Volt is starting to resemble the Edsel.

michiganmodels | 27 January, 2011

I would not be surprised if Buffet sold his holdings in BYD by 2012, like he did with Petro China.

Buffet already made his money with BYD, I believe he's selling because he can not purchase more (as he did with Petro China). I saw BYD at the NAIAS (and I own Berkshire Hathaway, which he spoke about at last year's shareholder meeting), and I was not/am not impressed:

http://www.fool.com/investing/international/2010/12/30/dont-buy-this-buf...

Brian H | 27 January, 2011

Mactxxxx;
The tap water system runs on powdered aluminum, actually. When the aluminum is all oxidized, it must be extracted and replaced. Good luck with that.
And Tesla's power transmission was undirected and EXTREMELY low efficiency.

searcher;
China's one-child policies are starting to bite their labor supply. Labor is getting more expensive, and more organized.

As for energy and oil, have a read of this:
http://www.forbes.com/forbes/2010/1108/opinions-steve-forbes-fact-commen...

searcher | 28 January, 2011

BrianH, Thanks for being the acute observer here. It does relieve some of the chargrin. I will read the website. I do like Steve Forbes as he relieves anxiety in lot of areas, I do hope you and steve Forbes are right on some of these issues. Again thanks for the input, truly appreciated. Know everything isn't "hunky dory" but we will do and try for the best. Again mact3333 thanks for your critical analysis to. Off the subjuect a bit here but how did andrew Jackson fit into this commonality, did all three want to get rid of the Fed. Incendently have any of you who have ever used a bolt action weapon visited Kennedys assasination site. My reaction was HMMM. But we will never know will we.

mact3333 | 28 January, 2011

Brian H,

any links to the powderized aluminum theory???.

Searcher,

Andrew Jackson wasnt killed but was shot while president (think there was 2 attempts) and the perp was released based on insanity...perp was told he would be set free if he caught and sure enough he was...was said the european bankers put him up to it...McKinley was also shot but dont know the reasons for that one.

Fed Reserve Act passed in 1913 near Christmas time while many of the politicians had already left for Christmas...the most important act in US history and it was passed while most were already gone for the holidays...hmmm.

G Edward Griffin wrote a famous book about the origins of the Fed Reserve....good stuff.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZWKlz2Z4Nlo

also, look up the Federal Reserve for your region in the phone book...not in blue pages cause they have nothing to do with our govt...they are in white pages just above Federal Express...not kidding...for my region, its the Fed Reserve Bank of San Francisco and it is a few names away from Federal Express in phone book.

BobP | 28 January, 2011

The basic problem is that what is good for American Businesses (at least in the short term) is NOT what is good for American workers (in any term). For businesses, cheaper cost to produce is tantamount. Unfortunately, Americans buy into the cheap crap. I can remember growing up in the 60's and early 70's. Everything that we touched from Japan was garbage. Then, Japan turned itself around and started copying from US. They learned, just like the Chinese are learning, copying, and stealing now! Japan, though, is an island with limited space and resources - China is much larger with many more people and a LOT more natural resources.

As long as companies continue to export American Jobs overseas we will be on a downward trend. This exportation of jobs includes, but is NOT limited to the following companies:

IBM, Dell, HP, Microsoft, All Car Manufacturers, and more...

These 10 businesses have moved their HQ overseas to AVOID US TAXES!!!
Halliburton, Seagate, Accenture (Arthur Anderson), Foster Wheeler, Ingersoll Rand, Tyco, Noble Drilling Services, Global Crossing, Nabors Industries, iRobot,

The U.S. sales director for one of India's top computer services providers said his company has won business from customers such as Walt Disney Co., Time Warner Inc.'s CNN and the Fox division of News Corp. -- none of which want public disclosure.

The list just goes ON AND ON AND ON. It's time to tax corporations based on GLOBAL SALES (not profit). Failure to report should be a FELONY with minimum 30 years sentence w/ NO PAROLE for all seniors executives and the BOD.

searcher | 29 January, 2011

BobP and rootfiler, Interesting discussion. My instinct is to tottlay agree with you Bobp but then I read rootfiller's comment and think umm yeah I guess this person has a point to. My question to rootfiler is how do we compete as we need to do it very heavily yesterday. With Brianh's keen insight in mind concerning labor supply and organization {which I was glad to hear} it still seems that capital is following cheap labor, how do we compete with this and fast. Because as I said before this is very relevant to sales of Tesla's in the USA probably one of their biggest expected markets. As I also stated that if the working man has some jngling money in his pocket the economy will be OK I think and I have previously related how I think this impacts the "professional class" if you will. The professional class being the primary buyers of Tesla's at least in their initial marketing models. So rootfiler I do see those classic well proven principles are essential for the engine that has lifted more people out of poverty and is one of actually most altruistic systems ever devised by any country. But as I see it if everyone is running away to avoid taxes etc. and get cheap labor they are just" cutting off their nose to spite their face" because bottom line where is there largest potential market, your right the good old USA so how do we get the" short term quick coporate buck psychology" turned around and get their "bleep" back home. If the average consumers get really hip about all this information bet things will turn around pretty fast, that is if they have a choice. I know I really learned some concrete facts and positive concepts from both you folks. Glad somebody is taking names. Wish somebody was watching the "bleep again" store a little more closely. Looks like super informed consumers will have to exert their muscle if not too late. So lets get the ball rolling to get everybody as consumers a lot more informed. Take names and reveal the bad players and not buy the sorry crap they are even having made now. Still would like to see chain store movement that sell USA products and products that play fair with us on international trade and ban the bad players products, even boycott their products unless they come back home. Would this be right approach to begin to make these rouge companies more amenable to coming back to USA along with the principles rootfiler mentioned. Some of the big boys and industry have got to sit down roll their sleeves up, stay in their offices, and work this thing out. Watch the "cotton picking store" you big guys.

searcher | 29 January, 2011

rootfiler, I sure don't have answers to these complex issues but seems that some corporation between the various elements involved in manufacturing, taxing policies, and everything else needs to get together and cooperate more here. We need our manufacturing base badly. Sure don't have anything against profit, as I said before I like hope. Profit has driven one of the most altruistic systems in existence for many years. So just talk with these companies and say come on back home guys you can still make a buck in the USA and to the countries that do practice fair trade with us try to keep this going and show them our appreciation here through various means. And to very honorable president Lincoln's statement I will add something that directly affects Tesla Motors sales "You destroy the working class and you destroy the professional class{Tesla car buyers at the present}".

Kallisman | 29 January, 2011

Isn't one of the most effective ways to protect local production heavy import tax, and tax relief for companies with local production?
At least as long as the market is big enough for the big corporations to care. If it's not, I don't think there's much u can do about them moving out.
Another way to compete with cheap labour abroad is effective production. Needing less labour for the same or bigger production.
Or simply not try to compete on price, but on quality, customer service and adaptability of the product to the buyers needs.
There are also the environmental issues of shipping various products and parts all over the globe instead of making them from local resources close to where they will be used.

mact3333 | 29 January, 2011

People keep thinking if we tax the rich our deficit will go down but it will not...lower taxes causes higher collection of tax receipts as more people do better financially...higher taxes mean recessions and lower tax collections ultimately.

But the most important factor people forget is govt has to STOP growing/spending...they have to get out of the way just like our forefathers wanted...we dont need so many rules and regulations and such high taxes...govt wants to have more and more people dependent of them for "control"...govt already has 25-30% of the country dependent on them in one way or another....when the 16th amendment was originally passed, allowing govt to collect "income" taxes, it was meant for 2% of the population and the max tax rate was supposed to be 7%...now look at what this law has mutated into...and many argue this amendment was never intended to tax our wages for labor, only capital gains ...some have taken their case to the Supreme Court arguing as such and have won.

How do we get out of this mess?
Cut taxes, shrink govt spending, shrink govt positions, decrease programs such as welfare/medicare and let the free mkts work...while this may sound harsh it is not...socialism doesnt work...whenever govt gets involved in anything there are inefficiencies, fraud, bureaucracy, bribery, etc. The govt loses money and that is a fact.

Only way I see how we pull of this mess and not default on our own debt like Greece and Ireland will, is to shrink govt spending and its programs, quit going to war over oil...spend the war money on research and infrastructure and re-newable energy...let co's like Tesla flourish...but we are working against the military-industrial complex and the lobbyists with all the money and power so Im not that all that hopeful really.

searcher | 29 January, 2011

mact3333. Think your first paragraph has been repeatdly proven. Essential for government to work with individual companies and see how we cand induce them to come back and produce here. If its corporate taxes lower them. If its cutthroat companies following cheap labor slap a tariff on them so high that they might as well stay here and produce it here if they want to sell in this market they have to stay in this market and at least pay the piper some just like all their labor will. On some of the government programs I agree cut unessential, but have to necesarily keep some because the free market or whatever class sorry to say does not give a continental Bleep about many no longer able to participate in the laboring role. Also need to take look at pricing from the free enterprise elements to these government programs as certain ones doing the contracting are on a riduculous "gravy train". If they don't watch out a buch of folks are going to get wise and more effecient system will replace them and I wont go into any particulars here. I think it all boils down to all clsses need each other and the need to come to the table realizing this in spirit of corporation. Thus bringing produstion of goods and services back to our country. This coupled with limited but not entirely exclusion of government I think will be eventual best route to go. This relates directly to sales of Model S to "Professional Class" now and to the working class and big commuters later. Got to get some people elected into government that know how to help businesses succeed. This part of the engine has got to run good and it's not at present.

cablechewer | 30 January, 2011

When the US gov't produces their budget for the year everyone needs to ask a few questions. What is the government's revenue? What are they spending? If we draw a nice simple pie chart where does the money go?

In 2009 the military, medicare and Social Security accounted for about 62% of all expenditures. Also in 2009 the spending was about $1.67 for every $1 of revenue.

You aren't going to fix these numbers with a few tweaks and complaints about efficiency (fraud, etc). Are there wasteful, port barrel programs? Yes. But there are also some very useful programs operated by over-worked, underfunded and conscientious people (we can debate the split between these elsewhere).

What you need is people to take an interest in these numbers. Then you need a comprehensive review (which would require cooperation from the right and the left in the US) of all revenue and spending so you can reach a point where you are only spending about $0.99 (all programs and debt servicing) for every $1 you take in. That last penny can start to repay existing debt.

The problem I see is that most of my American co-workers only care enough to joke that they live in "The United States of China" and to point out that they are over taxed.

Back to the original topic of the thread - I don't have a lot of faith in BYD and the other Chinese manufacturers. Quality issues in several products I have bought (or seen others buy) don't give me a good feeling about Chinese cars. My biggest concern is that my misgivings are misplaced and not truly reflective of what China is capable of.

cablechewer | 30 January, 2011

Oops. Meant pork barrel, not port barrel. A barrel of port might be a little too classy and refined for characterizing wasteful spending. :)

searcher | 31 January, 2011

cablechewer, Eveything you and others have said concerning all this stuff is right on the mark I believe. If we can understand it and almost universally agree I think the american people as a whole need to have it drilled into them to the point they actually become interested and "get it" and let's stop killing the chicken that lays golden eggs. Our productive and services potential. This is what has won some major wars for us. If I may digress. Had a history teacher in college who was captured by our adversary at the time, he was being interviewed {brainwashed] at one point and the adversary was pointing out he had no chance to which he told them "we can win this war with cigarette lighters" interviewers had a puzzled look and ask him how? He replied "our {then} productive capability could produce enough cigarette lighters to cover that country in three feet of cigarette lighters and I would like to see anybody fight a war in three feet of cigarette lighters". After that they let him alone. Not against trade, as said before the Chinese and many other nations are wonderful people but we must get things on a level playing field.
Staying in character and going way off topic now and making a political statement {already gone off on topics too much, too often I know} but anyway Duncan Hunter was the main person that was adressing these problems in the last election. Sadly our political process has gone "show business" now. Charismatic personality, handsome looks, great oratorical ability, count more than knowledge of issues and political will. More like "American Political Idol" now. But was encouraged that some politicians made inroads against this trend. Maybe there is hope. If we can just get the legendary "person in the street" educated and conversant on these issues then we will be OK I think. And if the diversity of opinions and ideas represented on this site can basically come together then I know this can be achieved. Certainly not against the Chinese people and know they are extremely intelligent people and realize we and the Chinese are somewhat interdependent as we all are. Getting back on topic now, as far as the new Chinese electric car , someone made the statement that Musk probably hopes they are sucessful. This makes a lot of sense to. Going back to my former statements about the Migs in the Korean War, don't know who "hotrodded" them but know they were "bad to the bone" fighter planes. This may or may not relate to their techno capability but bet they will eventually wind up with a pretty darn good little car. Will be interesting to see how this plays out. Tesla coming from the top down and China seemingly going from the bottom of the line up. Both will definitely play a big role in energy independence probably. Let's just stay friendly and get the playing field level on trade. Let us get our jobs humming here. Think this will be a number one political theme this next election cycle, as well it shold be, and think their are some players that can achive this. In spite of "American Political Idol" although think there is one who can do a darn good job of both right now and think all know who I am talking about. Would have already been doing this except for a dirty trick within his own party and you all know who I am talking about. But I digress[as is not unusual}. I tried to keep cars in the mix as they certianly are.

searcher | 1 February, 2011

Not to diminish Chinese technology, just researched my own statement or question. The Russians "hot rodded" the Migs. No news to most of you I am sure. How does this relate to Tesla? Maybe a stretch but all under the heading Chinese technology which does relate to their new electric car coming out. Which I bet might be a pretty good one. Which will open more doors for the EV's worlwide I suppose.

searcher | 3 February, 2011

We have all heard the pollution in China is terrible so maybe we could sell them some techno products that would help with this. Does anybody know the primary sources of all this pollution? Again does anyone know the primary make up of their power grid and is their topography amenable to hdroelectric? Was it China or some other that recently finished the worlds largest hydroeelectic project. Almost sure it was China. So maybe we have an opening here to sell them some stuff they need to fight pollution. We are all indeed interdependent and yet we as human beings are, still in great numbers bent on war, how stupid. It's just in our genes or something it would be well to eliminate, myself included. As I have tried to lead discussions on weapons systems in this very thread. Just last night was discussing who "hot rodded" the migs. We have to have a very strong defense but strictly for defense as an absolute last resort. Lets bring honest diplomacy forward to its rightful place. Know it's not nearly exciting as weapons systems but this thinking has just got to be minimized.

Timo | 3 February, 2011

China is less polluting than US. Pretty much same sources, less used.

searcher | 3 February, 2011

Thanks timo will take your word as I know you can back up what you say but what about all the stuff about the bad air in China is this just media hype or is it just centered around the large cities{same as USA}. The media makes it sound that it is much worse than ours.{USA that is}. Again this would be good area for USA and China to cooperate on, air pollution and technologies to improve it. Must get our energies and thinking more away from war too many other things desperately need our global cooperation and concentrate on the positive things concerning life on this planet.I am by no stretch of the imagination a globalist here though. Don't even like the term "globallization". China and USA and many other countries can usher in electric cars much faster than many can or want to think I believe. I believe China has the same realization as many other countries do now about EV's.

Douglas3 | 4 February, 2011

China is horribly polluted because they use coal extensively for electricity, heating, cooking, you name it. Over 68% of their electricity comes from coal. Their domestic sources include a lot of poor quality lignite coal, which burns very dirty.

When I visited China a number of years ago, you could barely see the buildings around Tiananmen Square for the smog. It was a huge relief to get out of the city.

searcher | 4 February, 2011

Douglas3. I have missionary friend and wife who spent twenty years in China they related similsr experiences in some area. Think they will ever go for hydro or is the land just to precious for other uses etc.EV's and pollution is seeming to be a definite area of cooperation between China and a lot of other countries. Thanks for the informative post.

Timo | 5 February, 2011

In global scale US is much worse polluter, but around cities low-tech shows in China. Though recently they have made a lot of progress in that area. Moving as fast as possible to EV:s is a smart move in China, where people get more and more cars.

William13 | 5 February, 2011

Timo, in respect to co2 production or total resource consumption you are correct about USA versus China, but they have poor enforcement of environmental laws and have huge amounts of particulate and toxic pollution. In many respects we have exported our pollution to China. Their pollution is much much worse than ours. Think LA in 1970s every day. This is not confined to their cities unfortunately.

ggr | 5 February, 2011

Searcher, have a look at the environmental disaster that has been caused by the Three Gorges Dam in China. Hydroelectricity is not the answer to their problem.

Greg.

searcher | 5 February, 2011

ggr I am sure this is the project I was referring to. Didn't know they had had a problem with it. Will check this out. Thanks for the information.

Brian H | 7 February, 2011

Whole lotta #(#@&@& goin' on.

Go to http://www.realclearmarkets.com/authors/john_tamny/ and start reading his stuff.

Some shockers. There is no such thing as a trade deficit. Tariffs kill what they claim to protect. A strong dollar is a matter of intent and confidence, and is crucial. Etc.

@chargme;
Lincoln never said that. It was part of the conclusion of an article a Rev B?? wrote about Lincoln in the '20s, and lazy readers and editors mis-attributed it.

And no liberal in the world believes a word of it. Envy, remedied by confiscation, is of the essence to them. But as Iron Maggie said, "Eventually you run out of other people's money." Quite soon, actually. And other people's money runs from you even faster. The UK suddenly lost almost its entire entertainment and sports star population when they put tax rates thru the roof for the "idle rich". Not to mention anyone who knew much about making things work. They are about to reap the consequences.

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