Tell Obama that it makes little sense to give us a $7500 tax credit to purchase an electric car but not invest significantly less to provide us a place to charge when visiting a National Park or other public area.

How much would it cost to install a NEMA 14-50 plug if power is available nearby? Probably a lot less than the tax credit for 1 car! Even a row "Level 2" stations probably cost less.

jat | 17 February, 2013

National parks that already have RV support effectively have EV chargers already.

Carefree | 17 February, 2013

jat, most National Parks only offer dry-camping - no hook-ups at all. If they do offer electricity is mostly limited to 120V 30Amp service. Very few National Park campgrounds have 240V service.

It would make sense to install charging stations in NPs - the issue will be how to avoid ICE cars to park in those spots as there is always a shortage for anyone to park.

TikiMan | 17 February, 2013

If you look at the President's agenda for the next four years, 'energy independence' is fairly HIGH on his agenda (just below new jobs). Thus, I don't think you have to worry about the near future of charging stations multiplying fairly quick.

Also, know that building a gas station takes YEARS of planning, and massive amounts of permits, ecological studies, red-tape, etc. Building a charging station can be planned and built in under a few months.

If you think about it, in the time it took America to build oil refineries and gas stations, our nation could add 500

TikiMan | 17 February, 2013

(whoops, wrong button)....

... our nation could build 500 million charge stations around the nation in a matter of a few years.

nwdiver93 | 17 February, 2013

I seriously doubt there are few if any visitor centers that don't have 240v service. This should also be applied to not just federal parks but state parks also. It could be as simple as creating a fund for this specific purpose that state agencies could draw from.

A trail-head would be more problematic but it should be simple in developed areas of the park. Yes, RV sites do often have 240v service but we need designated EV spots especially during peak camping season.

Mel. | 17 February, 2013

Nwdiver93, Obama had nothing to do with the $7500. Tax credit.

Tikiman, you have to know that there is no plan for energy independence. We do know that President Obama is pushing for an increase in ethanol.

What we need are superchargers and Elon will take care of that.. However, I like nwdiver93 idea for the national parks, if the government did put in chargers they would probably be too small .

Pungoteague_Dave | 17 February, 2013

Seriously TikiMan, 500 million - more chargers than we have population? Get a grip.

Mel,one of the first bills that Obama signed in '08 was to extend the $7,500 Bush-sponsored EV tax credit from 250,000 cars to 500,000 cars. Since then he has tried to increase it to $10,000 and make it refundable at purchase, but has been stymied in Congress. The same '08 Obama bill eliminated the former $3,000 limit on the 30% tax credit for renewables like solar panels and geothermal installations.

nwdiver93 | 17 February, 2013

To be clear... I wasn't trying to criticize the tax credit. I hope it gets upgraded to a $10,000 discount that you get at the time of purchase.

My point is that if the government is willing to loose billions in tax revenue to encourage the purchase of EVs then spending a few million to ensure these cars can recharge when visiting a public building / park should be an easy decision.

shs | 17 February, 2013

Yosemite National Park is currently planing on installing RV charging stations, mainly because it is better than having RVs running the generators day and night, disturbing neighbors. CarStations shows EV charging stations in Yosemite Village and in El Portal.

TikiMan | 17 February, 2013


I wasn't trying to estimate the amount of charging stations that are on the way, I was just trying to explain that charging stations are 90% easier to permit and build, than gas stations. Thus, if the EV or EGV become the status-quo in America, it could happen VERY quickly (as opposed to other sources of vehicle energy sources...i.e. hydrogen, natural gas, ethanol, etc).

Here in California, our oil refinaries are gouging customers to the point where it is starting to affect our economy. The current avarage price for regular is already at $4.30 per galllon (which is the highest on record for our state, during winter). Thus we could very well be on our way to $7.00 per gallon gas by summer. Most consumers in California are FED-UP with the price, and you can tell have been for a LONG time now, as we likely have more Toyota Prius's here than anywhere on Earth.

Either way, when a monopoly industry starts driving enough customers away from ICE vehicles, things change, and FAST! Right now as I write this, I am only 5 miles from over six differet public charge stations (ten chargers) over 20 amps, and I live in the suburbs. It was only three years ago when I remember there weren't any, and we've only just begone.

Mel. | 17 February, 2013

Nwdiver93, I agree with you. I just do not like anyone getting credit for something they never did.. I really think Elon will have us up and running with superchargers in the near future. Hotels should also get on board for our overnight stay.

P.D.,thanks for your input.i assume you are referring to the 831 Billion stimulus bill the Obama signed in 2009, I have tried to go through that thing but have been unable to find it broken down. It would have been nice that with 831,000,000,000.00. , more could have been done for electric vehicles and the grid.

Bush signed the energy improvement and extension act in October of 2008. , this was the one that had the 7500 tax credit .Obama did try to get through the American clean energy and security act of 2009 but it was defeated in the Senate., this contained help for those converting ICE to electric.

Brian H | 17 February, 2013

About that $10K credit proposal, AFAIK it was to be limited to cars with MSRP <$45K. Which excludes all MSes, but would likely include most GenIII cars.

Hi_Tech | 18 February, 2013

As much as I'd like to save money as much as possible when buying my Tesla, I really want the government staying out of this as much as possible. Due to it's involvement, the company is already getting aligned with vehicles/companies that have failed (Volt, etc.) and have required the government to support it.
I truely think that Tesla has the knowledge and the product to be able to compete with any luxary vehicle maker and win! Relying on the government for the sales is only going to impact the company negatively over the long period of time.

stevenmaifert | 18 February, 2013

The American Recovery and Reinvestment Act of 2009 (Obama Stimulus) provided the Department of Energy with ~$400 million to establish the Transportation Electrification Program. Like most government giveaways (excuse me; investments), it hasn't been particularly well managed from an accountability perspective: As illustrated by this article: EV charging infrastructure funded by this money is slowly making its way into America's parks and recreation areas. It's not likely we will be seeing an explosion of NEMA 14-50 outlets apart from what's necessary to support the RVs visiting the parks. After all, Model S is the only EV that can use them, but as time goes by, we can look for more Level 2 J1772 chargers.

olanmills | 18 February, 2013

We, the rich people of the United States, demand special treatment (and money!) for our expensive magic mobiles!

~signed olanmills

bobinfla | 18 February, 2013

Hear Hear! lmao Olan

nwdiver93 | 18 February, 2013

Providing designated parking for vehicle charging isn't any more favoritism than providing a gas-guzzling RV'r with a designated plug. They charge a nominal fee for them... they can charge a nominal fee for us.

Any EV can use a NEMA 14-50 outlet; they just need to have the proper connection. If the Administration is sincere in reducing our dependence on oil and combating climate change the least they can do is make their own facilities EV friendly. I'm not suggesting they offer FREE power... but they should make it readily available.

Mel. | 26 February, 2013

Stevenmalfert, do you know if the 400,000.00 dollars was spent on electric charging station ? Do you know what they consist of, and where they are located? Thanks

P.D., do you know when Obama submitted a bill to raise the tax credit to 10,000.00 ? Was this when he wanted the credit to apply to cars selling for under 45,000.... . I am suprised you left this discussion without clarifying your statements.

Hitesh, I wold like the government to stay out of picking winners etc., How about they eliminate all the tax breaks for corn, sugar, tobacco as well as the oil depletion allowance.?

Olanmills, we are not the rich, unless some are CEO's of the Too big to fail Banks

Brian H | 26 February, 2013

The $10,000 credit was/is to apply ONLY TO CARS UNDER $45K. Forget about it for the Model S. That remains unchanged.

Eleonor2002 | 26 February, 2013
kenliles | 26 February, 2013

I assume Friday sequester abolishes all federal tax credits; But have no idea if true; anybody know the facts on this?

GeirT | 27 February, 2013

Interesting for an outsider to US to note the demand for government involvement. If there is a business model that void will be filled by private entrepreneurship; RV sites, hotels, gas stations, convenience marts etc. Why on earth do you want government to get involved, that is notoriously know for inferior service, mal-investments and constant lack of maintenance?
Once the demand increases there will be a solution - if the 'government' will allow it or does not not make it practically impossible due to over-regulation and "for your safety and protection".
Well... living in the last European Stalinist nation (according to a Swedish Minister of Finance) I find it a bit peculiar to notice indications of our attitudes here over there albeit you are the beacon of free enterprise.


Brian H | 27 February, 2013

The fatal trend towards (raw) democracy. Once the good citizens decide they can vote themselves a life of ease on others' money, it's all downhill. Who is John Galt?

After the last election, the Spanish (?) finance minister said, "We are a poor nation that has been living like a rich nation."

It's easy to live like a richer nation. For a while. The you live like a poorer nation. For quite a while.

Brian H | 27 February, 2013

typo: "Then you live ..."

stevenmaifert | 27 February, 2013

Mel - This slide presentation is a decent overview of how the $400 Million was distributed and where: We here in San Diego benefited greatly from the program as there are now over 100 L2 charging stations in the greater San Diego area, many of which were funded by this grant money.

GeirT | 27 February, 2013

@ Brian H

You can be a pain sometimes but this one was spot on ;-)

kenliles | 27 February, 2013

I think government can play a more effective role than private enterprise for certain elements; It's clearly a balance that constantly moves. But regardless of that, I was just looking for straight facts; Can't find anything that shows where the sequester cuts are applied, but EV credit seems like a likely kill. I was more looking at what effect that might have on the stock price frankly

Pungoteague_Dave | 27 February, 2013

The sequester has no impact on EV credits. None. The tax code isn't changing, just spending authority.

kenliles | 27 February, 2013

Didn't realize it was written into the code; I thought it was a separate pool of money, continually funded or not funded. Thanks for clarification

Mel. | 27 February, 2013

Brian H, thanks for the info on the the $10,000.00 credit. I thought that P. D. would have additional information on this.. He has avoided commenting on this ..

Ken , where did you think this pool of money was? Any idea who put it there?

Steve, thanks for the map. I am in Florida and travel to New England. Happy for San Diego, but it does not look like 400,000.00 was well spent.

Mark Z | 9 March, 2013

There is a bit of hope in charging up at the National Parks.

I made the following comment to The White House:

"For the cuts to the National Park Service to be truly draconian, you should only allow visitors who drive or ride in CNG or EV Zero Emission Vehicles into the parks."

Now that's change that the visitors would notice!

Mel. | 12 March, 2013

P.D., you have me very confused on all this money that Tesla is getting from the taxpayer/ government. You were telling Tiebreaker that "Tesla receives significant Direct government credits in cash for EV battery production." You then go on to say that " Tesla also benefits directly from a government subsidy in the form of a 7500. Payment etc etc". Now I know that the Father of the modern electric car. -W, did start the ball rolling, but I cannot find any reference to this government money that Tesla received except for the loan.

Now we know about the Loan and we , as buyers ,are getting a tax credit. I would really like to know what other monies Tesla is getting. Sorry to keep asking this same stuff.

Brian H | 12 March, 2013

P_D seems to consider that TM would not have gotten the $7500 unless the credit existed. While it is probable a few sales might have been lost without it, I see no other impact on TM's finances.

Mel. | 14 March, 2013

Brian H, it appears that P. D. has a tough time backing down from statements that have gone toooo far.. He is a really eloquent guy and it would have been interesting if he would have continued the discussion.