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Battery Help!!! just bought pre-owned P85D from Tesla at 90% charge = 217 MIles 2015 60k is this Right or is something wrong?

Battery Help!!! just bought pre-owned P85D from Tesla at 90% charge = 217 MIles 2015 60k is this Right or is something wrong?

Hi All,
1st off thank you for being here, and for any constructive help, you can provide.

This is my 2nd Tesla 1st was a 2013 S85 pre-owned certified the next one is a "USED" 2015 P85D both from Tesla directly.

The P85D was at 90% when I took delivery, the battery was at 217 mile range this was a concern to me I thought the range should be a bit higher at 90%. I was told it was based on how it was driven prior I took it home. I drove it a bit aggressively the first 2 days, but since then I have been driving it like driving miss daisy to get the range to increases. I till is at 217 miles at 90%, is this the mileage I am stuck with? I did my research and others seem to be getting more range like 10 to 15 miles more on the low end. What is the proper way to bring this to Tesla's attention so they will address this?

Thank you in advance for any constructive help or advice.

Xerogas | 26 July, 2018

@richdwill_2000: is this what the computer is estimating for range, or have you driven it down to zero to confirm actual range? Service center told me the computer can determine range more accurately if you recalibrate it. By that he meant you would drive it down to as close to zero as you feel comfortable, then charge it back up to full. Perhaps a few times.

Supposedly that will cause the computer to estimate range more accurately.

Anthony J. Parisio | 26 July, 2018

Xerogas is right, Low numbers like that often happen because of slow miscalculations over time. Almost full drain to full charge will recalibrate the algorithm. However this is not that important. The power is still there. All you have to do is run it down one time and you will see you have gone more than 217 miles.

kerryglittle | 26 July, 2018

I get 250 miles on my 2015 P85D with a full charge. 402 kilometres because I'm a Canuck. Originally the car was supposed to get 410 kilometres, so Tesla said. I have 83,000 kilometres on it. How many miles do you have? I think the batteries take the biggest hit in the first couple or few years and then level off a bit on the degradation.
Xerogas has some good advice. Try that. I know my ice car and Harley will recalibrate depending on how I have been driving.

GHammer | 26 July, 2018

Rated range of a P85D when new was 253. 253 x.9=228. 11 miles down at 60k doesn't seem out of line. I'm about 8 miles down at 40k on both my cars. Driving habits have nothing to do with rated range, it's a fixed number calculation.

TeslaTap.com | 26 July, 2018

Hammer is right. Nothing to bring to Tesla's attention.

I'll also add the calculation purposely drifts slowly down with usage (which is far better than drifting upwards and getting caught without enough miles for your trip!). There is actually no way to reliably measure the chemical state of the batter or state of charge, except when charged to 100% or at close to 0%. This is true of all lithium-ion batteries, even your cell phone. Between those extremes, it's a good estimate based on the amount of charging and discharging that goes on which can be measured. Keep in mind there is a lot of discharging/charging while driving and using regen. As the range calculation drifts downward, the actual battery capacity remains basically the same (except for a very slow degradation from long-term usage).

Rocky_H | 26 July, 2018

+1 each for @Xerogas and @hammer
Being down only 11 miles from brand new range on a 2015 car isn't bad. And yes, it might be able to recover a few of you run it low and refill it, but that's just giving you a warm fuzzy about measurement accuracy, not actually changing the amount of energy in the battery.

Silver2K | 26 July, 2018

Max charge on my P90D is:

239 max using my home connector
244 supercharging at 126k miles.

When driving the story changes. Here's a phone of what I mean about the story changing.

https://1drv.ms/u/s!AihnWpuO55swh_tc1Ej6K1xg0NW7TA

Rated miles driven plus rated mile remaining add up to 251.
I wouldn't worry too much about the reading but keep an eye on it so you don't run out while driving :)

Silver2K | 26 July, 2018

Phone/Photo

PBEndo | 26 July, 2018

"based on how it was driven prior I took it home" is BS, though repeated often, even by some Tesla employees.

For comparison, my 2015 P85D with 45K miles and gets 223 rated with a 90% charge.

Bighorn | 26 July, 2018

Normal degradation. Just drive it. Recalibration is a debatable subject not worth pursuing. The best versed person I spoke to about this said charging from empty to full is a less accurate representation of reality. Rated range isn’t altered by driving habits.

SCCRENDO | 26 July, 2018

My 2013 85S April 2013, 144000 miles gets about 217-219 at 90%

MilesMD88 | 27 July, 2018

Same with PBEndo. 2015 P85D, 90% charge usually 225 miles range. 22K very happy miles..

p.c.mcavoy | 27 July, 2018

Silver2K | July 26, 2018
Max charge on my P90D is:

239 max using my home connector
244 supercharging at 126k miles.

When driving the story changes. Here's a phone of what I mean about the story changing.

https://1drv.ms/u/s!AihnWpuO55swh_tc1Ej6K1xg0NW7TA

Rated miles driven plus rated mile remaining add up to 251.
I wouldn't worry too much about the reading but keep an eye on it so you don't run out while driving :)
==============================================

@Silver - I made similar comment to you in another thread, but not sure from your photo where you get rated miles driven plus rated mile remaining add up to 251 in your photo case you cite unless you're implying you think that for a P90D the rated mile constant is around 279 Wh/mi as you achieved during your drive. That I think is the flaw you have in logic.

From information on quoted rated range, useable battery capacity, and more recently my experience driving a Nov 2015 P90DL service loaner, I think the rated miles for a P90D actually is nearer something like 290-295 Wh/mi. I was actually surprised it was this high in comparison to my June 2016 refresh MS90D, but driving it for about 10 days and looking at energy use on several routes which I have lots of experience showed me that level of increase between the configs. If I use the trip stats from your photo and a RM constant of 290-295, then I'd come back to estimating the range a full charge for your car to be somewhere in the 238-242 RM, so pretty much in line with the values you quoted from charging at home and at a supercharger.

Silver2K | 27 July, 2018

Rated miles are based on driving at 65 mph, ideal at 55 mph. If you divide my miles driven by time driven you will get 65 mph.

Where I get 251 is when I add miles driven on the right side of the cluster + 18 miles remaining on bottom left of the cluster. The drive does not go through mountainous areas where I would regen. I went from Syracuse to Newburgh on a max charge of 239.

Silver2K | 27 July, 2018

Oops...

To Achieve maximum rated, your numbers should not exceed 278Wh/mile.

My numbers tells me (IMHO) that the numbers to see when fully charged is based on driving habit and not actual distance access.

Silver2K | 27 July, 2018

To/you

Bighorn | 27 July, 2018

278 Wh/m is for the plain vanilla 85 in RWD. Since the P85D is less efficient, the number is higher. Estimating 74/253 gets you 292 which is likely similar in the P90D unless the buffers are significantly smaller.

ANTHONYROSEJR | 27 July, 2018

It's under warrantee so don't stress

tes-s | 27 July, 2018

Normal. Just drive it and enjoy!

Rocky_H | 27 July, 2018

@ANTHONYROSEJR, But the warranty specifically excludes degradation from use, so that's irrelevant.

Silver2K | 27 July, 2018

Bighorn | July 27, 2018
278 Wh/m is for the plain vanilla 85 in RWD. Since the P85D is less efficient, the number is higher. Estimating 74/253 gets you 292 which is likely similar in the P90D unless the buffers are significantly small.

----------

How did I achieve my numbers then? I'm curious to know this because PD achieved such numbers with his p85d in the past, but he didn't have a screen shot. Is it because of wheels and tires used?

PBEndo | 27 July, 2018

"PD achieved such numbers "
You Sir, are no PD!
;)

Xerogas | 27 July, 2018

@richdwill_2000: are you still here? Lots of good answers here.

p.c.mcavoy | 27 July, 2018

@Silver2k - "Rated miles are based on driving at 65 mph, ideal at 55 mph. If you divide my miles driven by time driven you will get 65 mph."

I'm not sure where you get that rated miles are based on driving at 65 mph. The EPA rating methodology actually uses a combination of different test cycles to determine vehicle fuel economy, and in turn electric vehicle MPGe and rated range. From the EPA website they state "Combined fuel economy is a weighted average of City and Highway MPG values that is calculated by weighting the City value by 55% and the Highway value by 45%."

One way to back out what the implied rate constant is for a MS is to do a long drive, record the starting/ending rated miles and then the data from the trip statistics for Wh/mi and distance traveled. Doing it for a long drive helps minimize the rounding errors. From you photo and data you provided,

Starting RM = 239, ending RM = 19, RM consumed = 221
Physical miles traveled = 232.8, Actual Wh/mi = 279

If you take the formula that RM * constant = energy consumed = actual miles * actual Wh/mi, you can back solve for the energy use constant that equates to 1 RM. Using your data, I get that the constant is:

232.8 * 279 / 221 = 294 Wh/mi as the equivalent for 1 rated mile.

This would say if you could drive with an average energy use of ~ 294 Wh/mi you'd see the number of rated miles consumed equal the physical miles traveled. I've observed my car in this way for the past two years and the data is very consistent, especially when I combine it with data that I log via VisibleTesla where I can get the RM numbers to 2 decimal places, greatly reducing some of the numerical rounding errors.

This value of 294 Wh/mi is consistent with what I observed driving a 2015 P90DL with 21" wheels for much of the past two weeks.

p.c.mcavoy | 27 July, 2018

... sorry, typo on the ending RM when I listed your data above ... should be

Starting RM = 239, ending RM = 18, RM consumed = 221

I used the correct values in my calculations, just botch it typing.

dano | 27 July, 2018

For my 70D, rated miles is based on 270 Wh/mi and ideal appears to be 80% of that, i.e., 216.

Bighorn | 27 July, 2018

Rated miles are based on the EPA result

Bighorn | 27 July, 2018

@pc
That’s one way. The more direct technique is to use the rated mile delta and the kWhs consumed to get a similar result.

p.c.mcavoy | 28 July, 2018

@Bighorn - Yes, I agree you will get the same result using the consumed kWh and RM numbers. The two approaches are equivalent. You just started with the middle term in my double equality. I tend to always think about it via the ratio of the Wh/mi and distance terms than the total energy term.

NOLEK SUM | 28 July, 2018

My 5 year old S85 charged to full gets to 255. Have used SCs maybe a dozen times in five years. Charge at home on a 240 V 50 amp line. Regularly make 230 mile trips but can’t go over 62 for most of it to be able to make it.

Silver2K | 28 July, 2018

JB's explanation.

https://www.tesla.com/blog/driving-range-model-s-family

The list does not include the P90D.

Silver2K | 28 July, 2018

"This value of 294 Wh/mi is consistent with what I observed driving a 2015 P90DL with 21" wheels for much of the past two weeks."

I'm using 19's.

Pungoteague_Dave | 28 July, 2018

You are dead equal with my 12/14 P85D that has about 75k miles. IIRC, my life-to-date wh/is is about 340, with lots of sub-freezing miles early on. I drive the car a lot less now due to being home less than half the year (we're currently in the Yukon, motorcycling South from Prudhoe Bay toward Ushuaia, Argentina - there's no part of this trip that a Tesla could handle), but I have had some success "restoring rated miles by fully depleting the battery to below ten miles, and doing several range charges in a row. This is a controversial subject, but was first suggested to me by a Tesla tech and did restore some lost miles on both the top end and at 90% charge. There are two theories about this - the first is that it balances the cells and restores real, usable range. The second theory is that it simple reeducates the battery management system and computer algorithms, without really changing the battery. I don't know which it was, but have given up and simply drive the car like a stolen mule.

In my opinion, worrying about this isn't worth the brain damage - you are well within spec and expectations. Given the proliferation of superchargers, you should never haver a range issue with proper planning. I would also not be concerned about doing the occasional range charge. When at home I do this twice per week to make it between houses that are about 210 miles apart, haven't seen an impact. Good luck. You'll love the car.

Pungoteague_Dave | 28 July, 2018

wh/mi

tes-s | 29 July, 2018

Did the first full charge in my 85 in while - 245 miles. Last time it was 242.

NKYTA | 29 July, 2018

“there's no part of this trip that a Tesla could handle”

Excepting the entirety of the western US in WA, OR, CA and half of Mexico, depending on route.

So none == what? about a quarter of your journey.

Cycle safe, lay off the hyperbole.

Bighorn | 29 July, 2018

And the Model S that made it to Panama about 5 years ago...

SbMD | 29 July, 2018

@rich - as stated above, you should be ok. The algorithms have changed over time, plus some battery degradation is to be expected. If you are truly having real range issues and rapid drops in charge, then you should let Tesla know and let them address the problem, as you are well within warranty.

SamO | 29 July, 2018

WAIt. There’s no electricity in Alaska Canada or South America?

Lol. More PD BS

Pungoteague_Dave | 29 July, 2018

@NKYTA “there's no part of this trip that a Tesla could handle” Excepting the entirety of the western US in WA, OR, CA and half of Mexico, depending on route. So none == what? about a quarter of your journey. Cycle safe, lay off the hyperbole."

Zero hyperbole. There isn't a singe day of my current 32,000-mile route across the US, up to Prudhoe Bay, and down to Ushuaia that any Tesla could cover. Note one. It is still possible to cross the entire US on unpaved roads. We did that. Alaska speaks for itself, about half unpaved, most of the rest inaccessible to EVs. Yesterday I rode over teh Top of the World road to Dawson City. Good luck trying that in any EV. From here we will traverse the Continental Divide Trail through Canada and the U.S. Zero potential for any EV to pull that off, even my Zero motorcycle couldn't make the no-charger gaps, even though it might survive most of the terrain. We will enter Mexico and traverse Copper Canyon, one of the most remote places on earth. Could I plot an EV route through Mexico? Of course. It has been done, as Bighorn says above. But no EV could do MY route, which focuses on remote places and mostly unpaved roads, with towns that have spotty electrical service, often scheuled hours to run generators, No EVs welcome. An EV could make it through some of the Central American countries, but not on my planned route. And even I had to locate vehicle transport to bridge the Darien Gap. From Cartagena Columbia to Ushusaia will involve sections during every day that no Tesla could handle. Argentina's main north-south road is Ruta 40, which has hundreds of unpaved sections with river fjords and sand and rocks. We will cross Andes passes 10 times in South America. A Tesla could MAYBE do two of those, but only with jury-rigged charging and huge planning. Yet even if successfully crossed, other parts of each of those days are beyond reach for an EV.

@SamO "WAIt. There’s no electricity in Alaska Canada or South America?" Lol. More PD BS"

You guys need to get out more. 90% of the world's roads are unpaved, as are 60% of the U.S roads. There are many places where vehicles travel that no Tesla will handle. Those are the places we often go. I could have made the exact same statement about our motorcycle adventure to the North Pole through Russia last summer, our ride around Iceland in 2016, our ride from Europe to Hong Kong in 2015, our New Zealand adventure in 2014, and multiple routes we've taken through Africa. Y'll have a first world, California-centric focus. Some of my prior routes though even California would be impossible for an EV, and will remain so until someone develops a high-clearance long-range battery-powered vehicle. When driving my Tesla, an activity I love, the car controls the route and schedule, rather than the other way around. At times that is acceptable. But when traveling for adventure, it is virtually useless.

NKYTA | 29 July, 2018

You said “no part”, I showed you parts. Now the whole trip has to be on the SC network. You just moved the goalposts again. Sorry man.

The fact that you choose to route on secondary roads is fine, and it sounds like a grand adventure.

If you are coming through Vancouver, WA, OR and CA, I could plan a route that kept you as far away as 50 miles from an SC at most times, but it would be completely ridiculous.

Since most of your trip, is clearly -not- covered by suitable charging, I have no problem saying “atta boy, enjoy your trip”.

You need to go back to your JJ teaching and listen to your former self. Never say never, or always, or none.

Travel safe.

NKYTA | 29 July, 2018

Post your route.

Silver2K | 29 July, 2018

PD, at one time, gas cars could not make those long/remote trips. The EV revolution has just started and Tesla need more time to expand like gas stations had to long ago. I don't think there were 1300 gas stations when they started manufacturing gas powered automobiles.

Silver2K | 29 July, 2018

.....In 6 years time

jordanrichard | 30 July, 2018

There are to this day, areas where gas stations are far and few in between, hence the "last gas for X miles" warnings. It is even worse for diesels because not every gas station sells diesel.

Tom M.us_az | 30 July, 2018

I own a 2015 P85D with 69000 miles. It charges to 216 miles at 90%.

Rocky_H | 30 July, 2018

Yep, moving the goalposts—another @P_Dave favorite.

@NKYTA +100 Quote: “You need to go back to your JJ teaching and listen to your former self. Never say never, or always, or none.”

I note that with some frequency. I don’t think it’s possible to completely avoid all electricity and paved roads from the Canadian border to the Mexican border.

PBEndo | 30 July, 2018

So a new owner posts a question regarding the capacity of the battery in his newly purchased Tesla and PD sees an opportunity to remind everybody of his world travels.....
The more things change the more they stay the same.

MilesMD88 | 30 July, 2018

Tom M, thanks for your update.

chefmassy | 10 May, 2019

I have just bough a 2015 P85D with 39K miles from Tesla. I drove it for a couple of months and supercharged about 10 times with my frequent trips. Never went below 20% never above 90% in trips. At 85% the car shows 219 Miles consistently which is equal to 258 miles slightly above the declared range. I drive the car with fun and at times lightly on highway i am always go 10/13 miles over speed limit. So far the consumption is standard around 320 Wpm.