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GM says that they will be able to sell EVs at a cheaper price.

GM says that they will be able to sell EVs at a cheaper price.

www.yahoo.com/finance/news/gm-planning-electric-cars-wont-211435164.html

With Tesla lowering the cost of batteries, this makes sense.

sosmerc | 18 June, 2019

"On the minerals, I think Elon was having a bit of fun. I don't see Tesla getting into the mining business. Plenty of the needed minerals are available - although prices do fluctuate a bit."

Maybe he is just looking at ways to put his Boring Company to work?

SamO | 18 June, 2019

@sosmerc,

+1

TeslaTap.com | 18 June, 2019

@sosmerc - Really clever!

I can see Boring Company builds a tunnel from GF to Fremont to shuttle parts and batteries at high speed. As it is being built, use the extracted tunnel material to build batteries! Once that tunnel is done, start branching out to other locations. Maybe build the first transatlantic tunnel route, while the materials extracted pay for the tunnels construction!

SamO | 18 June, 2019

I’m down with terrestrial rockets. Anywhere on the planet in under 1 hour.

Mine the asteroids and mars and the moon.

Ross1 | 18 June, 2019

Yep, mine the moon, thereby reducing its mass and gravitational pull on our tides, reduces sea-level rise, problem solved.

SamO | 19 June, 2019

Two words: reaction mass

andy.connor.e | 19 June, 2019

GM would rather shut down factories and discontinue their entire sedan line than to change.

blue adept | 19 June, 2019

@finman100

Yeah, it's more a familiarity issue than it is anything else, including the cost (which, like all auto purchases, can be 'financed' over time) I think.

Once people become accustomed to something it's hard to get them to try something else, something new, because they inherently prefer the familiar over the unknown out of, perhaps, some byproduct of our ever lingering primal instinct.

But something else that we should all be familiar with by now is 'change' and Life is all about change and adaptation, afterall, that's how we continue to exist. They'll come around, eventually, inevitably, out of necessity if nothing else.

blue adept | 20 June, 2019

@Ross1

The Moon's gravimetric influence on our planet and the oceans is one that has served to shape the continents and drive the Earth's atmospheric and oceanic (thermohaline) conveyor system that dictates seasonal conditions for literally millions of years, ergo, any alteration to its mass &/or gravimetric influence (such as would occur due to the removal of material from, say, "mining") would greatly influence all of life on Earth detrimentally, possibly even irretrievably.

Possibly a refining and irradiation facility for ores and minerals from captured asteroids, but NO mining of the Moon itself.

blue adept | 20 June, 2019

@andy.connor.e

Yep! They're that damn obstinate.

They could just as easily retrain the workforce and covert their factories and assembly lines over to producing electric motors instead of IC engines but nooo, they'd rather put thousands of people out of work and just close the factories down, jeopardizing the former employee's families' livelihoods and destabilizing the city's economic structure all, apparently, just for spite.

Yey captains of American industry...NOT!!

blue adept | 20 June, 2019

I meant Yay, duh.

andy.connor.e | 20 June, 2019

I wouldnt say that they could easily do it, but its clear that they're not interested in trying to be competitive. That would require talent and innovation, which GM does not have.

blue adept | 21 June, 2019

Sad but true.

So much for 125 years of engineering, machining and technology experience in the auto industry and all that they've got to show for it is the "Bolt", ha! I've seen and even know of everyday people who've converted all manner of ICE'd car over to full BEV from antique to classic to modern day cars, even from compact to full size SUV and, hell, even one "monster" truck!

There's already a Hummer H1 out there, an S-10 and even a Corvette, all electric, but all GM has managed to accomplish thus far is the "Bolt"...

Again, such a disappointment.

They've said they're going to produce a long-range electric Cadillac SUV "sometime" in the near future to kick off their push into the EV market to meet emerging customer preference/demand, but we'll see.

blue adept | 24 June, 2019

@andy.connor.e

Dude!

If people in their shops, home garages and even backyards with minimal resources, no experience, and little to no skills can do it, then an automobile manufacturer with over 125 years of experience, all of their accumulated resources, knowledge and engineering capability can do it.

But for the want....

andy.connor.e | 25 June, 2019

ya because its probably some 300x harder to make a vehicle production line than it is to do it once in your garage.

andy.connor.e | 25 June, 2019

EM interviews he literally says this many times, that making the car is the easy part.

blue adept | 25 June, 2019

@andy.connor.e

Yep!

Once you've got a body and drivetrain it's just a matter of what sort of powerplant you're going to use to power the vehicle. Automakers already have everything that they need already in place and an abundance of resources from which to acquire electric motors, so the only thing that is stopping them is the lack of the want to do so.

Linemen/women can be retrained and assembly lines retrofitted to accommodate electric motor housings and windings and stators and commutators easily enough, but they're all just stubbornly clinging to the obsolete technology and all of us, them included, are suffering for it.

The avarice of selfishness and greed...They've plenty of that if not common sense apparently.

andy.connor.e | 26 June, 2019

Retrofitting ICE with electric is more environmentally friendly than buying a Tesla.

jimglas | 26 June, 2019

are you really that ignorant or is it an act?

reed_lewis | 26 June, 2019

@andy.connor.e - I do not think that is the case, because then you have to dispose of all the old ICE components that were in the car. Plus there is a lot of one off stuff that has to be put together and there is a lot of waste.

Producing a device brand new that is designed to be the device is much better.

The only case where a retrofit might be better is if the car were to be scrapped but is still in otherwise great shape because of some major component failure, but that is a small quantity of cars.

andy.connor.e | 26 June, 2019

If the goal is to stop using fossil fuels, using the existing frame and body of an ICE where you are discarding the engine would use less resources than what it took to build an entire new car.

finman100 | 26 June, 2019

but, but, but...clean diesel! yeah that's the same argument.

with no data points I could also say instead of filling my Tesla with unclean electrons, it'd be cleaner to pump gas into an engine.

sorry, without references and links and data, opinions and statements therein are not useful.

andy.connor.e | 26 June, 2019

Interestingly, it might actually be more carbon neutral to burn out the rest of an ICE's lifespan than to immediately buy another new car.

reed_lewis | 26 June, 2019

Actually if a car is still drivable, someone else will purchase it and will get the rest of the life out of it.

Earl and Nagin ... | 26 June, 2019

@andy.connor.e,
Yes, it would be environmentally better in the short term to convert ICE vehicles into electric. However, that approach is much worse economically. Overall, I believe that building new EVs is the more likely sustainable solution.
I try to focus on sustainability rather than 'better'. Sustainability is a long term view that takes into account something that can continue to work, theoretically forever. It must be viable in many ways in order to be sustainable. Economic factors are just as important as environmental factors when it comes to sustainability since, it does no good to have a perfect environmental solution if nobody can afford it. I see that as the trouble with ICE conversions.
'Better' also doesn't help if it doesn't put you on a track to sustainability. Gas-only hybrid cars are an example of being 'better' without being sustainable. While better than pure ICE, a world of all hybrids is just as dependent on oil and will eventually destroy the planet with its harmful emissions -- it will just take a bit longer.

andy.connor.e | 26 June, 2019

If the cars frame and body lasted 20 more years, then it would be more carbon neutral to convert it to an EV. Its like doing a total renovation of a house. Its less resources to strip out the interior and keep the structural framing and exterior, rather than knock the whole house down and build a new one. Would probably only be worth doing if you could manage to do it yourself, because i wouldnt know the first thing about the cost to do so. As far as carbon neutral is concerned, NOT going out and mining raw materials and shipping them all over the place to process and cut them to build an entire new car would use less energy and resources.

jimglas | 26 June, 2019

20 year old vehicles nickel and dime you with repairs. Everything just wears out

andy.connor.e | 26 June, 2019

everything is going to come down to money and convenience. No average person is going to spend $15-$20k retrofitting their ICE vehicle. And anyone would prefer the convenience of not even having to go through that whole process.

blue adept | 28 June, 2019

Hmm, I'm going to have to agree with @andy.connor.e on this one because retrofitting ICE's with electric, arguably, actually is more environmentally friendly than buying a Tesla, all things considered, inasmuch as swapping out an ICE with an electric motor would bypass all of the CO2 emissions involved in the mining, smelting, fabrication, and assembly process involved in producing a vehicle as you would already have the vehicle, the "bones" of the house, and would only need to retrofit it/update the fixtures and finishes to bring it up to code and reap the benefits!

Plus, an additional bonus would be had in melting down the salvaged ICE and associated fuel tank and lines and fuel pumps and what have you to use for casting new electric motor housings and associated componentry, you know, recycle it so you wouldn't have to mine for more materials and go through the whole refining process...Recycle, Renew, Reform, Reuse...and you could keep on tooling around town in your favorite, familiar ride.

Granted it won't be a new, top of the line, most technologically advanced, highest rated in safety and performance vehicle on the planet (Tesla) but, yeah, it would at least then be environmentally friendly and more cheaply had than purchasing a new Tesla and less environmentally burdensome to have produced.

reed_lewis | 28 June, 2019

The issue with modifying an ICE car to EV is that every single one of them will be a one-off example and they will all be different. The average driver wants a car to get into and drive, not a science experiment.

reed_lewis | 28 June, 2019

Making ICE cars into EVs would be like making cars was before the assembly line. Everything would be different, and unique to the car. There would be no replaceable parts. There is simply not the market for an ICE -> EV kit because there are so many different types of cars out there.

andy.connor.e | 28 June, 2019

Then run the ICE's to the end of their life. In the meantime, you can get solar and get rid of your gas appliances with all the money you're not spending on a new car.

reed_lewis | 28 June, 2019

It all depends on how much you drive. If you drive a lot (like me, about 22k miles a year), than an EV is a great idea and selling you car to someone else who drives less is the best decision. OTOH if you drive < 10K miles a year, then perhaps keeping a semi efficient ICE might be the financially better option.

Even if you buy a new EV, the old car is not taken off the road. It would be resold to someone else who would have bought an ICE anyways, so it is still being used. If you did not sell it, then the other person would have purchased something else anyways.

Mike83 | 28 June, 2019

ICE vehicles are not aerodynamic which makes them even less efficient. In addition they are unsafe in many ways. They support fossil fuel production and distribution and are prone to rollover, placement of engine and may emit CO to the occupants and breathing gas is carcinogenic.
Getting Solar to charge makes less driving since you don't need to drive to and from gas stations including waiting in line at Costco for cheaper gas, driving to get oil changes and maintenance, etc. There are many other reasons like having power to get out of hairy situations and safety of EAP

SamO | 29 June, 2019

Seriously stupid idea. Retrofit all the gas cars to EVs.

Stupid cubed.

EVs are cleaner and smarter. Gas cars are for imbeciles.

blue adept | 30 June, 2019

@reed_lewis & @SamO

In the sense of full disclosure, I have a number of antique and classic automobiles that I like to drive purely for the nostalgia of it that I fully plan to retrofit with electric motors and batteries so that I can continue to enjoy them without harming myself, the public-at-large, or the environment with toxic emissions.

In otherwords, they already are "different" and "unique", @reed_lewis, so converting them is not at all a "stupid idea" to someone such as myself, @SamO, plus, the more BEV's on the road, no matter what form they might take (or from what automotive era they might originate), the better in anyone's assessment of the situation.

Granted, they might not be the most practical, advanced, "aerodynamic" (@Mike83), or even all that efficient for that matter, but they would still be emissions-free BEV's which makes all the difference, to me at least anyways.

reed_lewis | 30 June, 2019

OK. One off conversions as a tinkering job is perfectly acceptable. But making a business out of it is not a valid idea.

I thought you were talking about a wholesale conversion of ICE to EV conversion factory lines. That is not viable. OTOH doing a one off where time and money is of less concern, have at it!

SamO | 30 June, 2019

But that’s not what Andy proposed. You and he both said there should be a wholesale conversion of a gas cars to electric vehicles.

That is stupid. Sorry if that hurts your feeling, but don’t change the hypothetical to try and make it fit.

reed_lewis | 1 July, 2019

@SamO - I am sure you are referring to @blue Adept and @andy.connor.e and not me. Converting ICE to EV is a laborious and complex process. It is not something that will be done in any sort of scale.

SamO | 1 July, 2019

Yes @reed. I agree with you that conversions make fun projects. I have a dream to convert a VW van with Tesla batteries and a powerwall + solar.

But my project is not a recipe for transitioning society to electrified transportation.

blue adept | 1 July, 2019

I was only discussing the logistics of ICE to BEV conversion versus straight BEV manufacture which, ultimately, left me to conclude that it would be better for all if all ICE manufacturers just stopped manufacturing internal combustion engines and, instead, transitioned to manufacturing electric motors and battery packs exclusively to power their various automotive marques.

Manufacturing an automobile as a BEV from the ground up exclusively is, of course, the most prudent route inasmuch as the resultant vehicle would have been designed specifically for use as a BEV and would reap the inherent benefits from being spec built purposefully as opposed to an afterthought as there's no replacement for something that has been conceived, designed and built task specific.

In short, while still no where near as good as an actual BEV, even a ICE to BEV conversion is better than continuing to drive an ICE!

Just saying.

andy.connor.e | 1 July, 2019

You're confusing my point. My point was that it would be more carbon neutral to retrofit vehicles. I never said everyone *should*. In fact, i actually acknowledged the fact that most people would probably choose not to do that because an average american would not even want to take on a task like that. Sorry about your feelings right?

SamO | 1 July, 2019

Logic doesn't care about your feelings.

It is not more "efficient" to retrofit old cars to EVs. If you believe differently, then please show your math.

blue adept | 1 July, 2019

@andy.connor.e

Not "confusing", per se, just elaborating as we are in agreement about your "carbon" point (which I thought I clarified, but whatever).

No harm, no foul.

blue adept | 1 July, 2019

@SamO

It is more ecologically friendly to do so, ergo, more 'efficient' as a result inasmuch as less energy would need to be expended to achieve the desired result.

'Logical' enough for you?

andy.connor.e | 2 July, 2019

"You and he both said there should be a wholesale conversion of a gas cars to electric vehicles."

Thats confusing my point. Because i never said this. Again, i said it would be more carbon neutral, and you can scroll up to see exactly my words.

BTW these are @SamO

finman100 | 2 July, 2019

so far, the "conversion from gas to EV" compliance cars are less efficient than the Tesla "from the ground up" EVs.

Initially there may be a small savings in "re-using" a gas-mobile shell...but in the longer view of energy expended to move that conversion, it may ultimately make the "from the ground up" EVs (Tesla) a better use of resources.

That was not very easy to follow, sorry.

EVs have that initial carbon penalty in manufacture (batteries, motors, etc) but more than make up for it in more efficiency and zero tailpipe after 3 years, compared to gas-burners. per a very detailed report out there on the interwebs.

Just trying to make a similar points for converted EVs in an ICE-chassis versus all-EV designs.

thought for a very tired morning. uhg.

SamO | 2 July, 2019

You make an assertion: "It is more ecologically friendly to do so" without a scintilla of evidence.

I ask you to provide evidence. But you cannot.

#Sad

andy.connor.e | 8 July, 2019

less resources required

reed_lewis | 8 July, 2019

But an ICE which is not converted will be used by someone else for a period of time. It takes a lot of time and energy to convert an ICE to an EV. It is not a "unplug/plugin" operation, and is different for each model of car.

I doubt there will ever be off-the-shelf conversion kits for ICE to EV conversions.

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