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Autopilot Braking Really Late

Autopilot Braking Really Late

I’m currently on 2019.16.2 and lately on autopilot the car has been braking really late where it caused a car behind me to get into an accident. I’ve set my car distance to 4 and it’s performance has been quite spotty and has been happening much more frequently lately. Checked my surrounding cameras and there are no obstructions. I’ve stopped using Autopilot as I don’t trust it with this software build.

Wanted to see if anyone is having the same issue I’m having lately?

Magic 8 Ball | 19 June, 2019

The car behind you caused their own accident, they were not keeping a safe distance.

rwade2666 | 19 June, 2019

Set up a service appointment mine works like a champ.

Techy James | 19 June, 2019

I have not noticed any such issues. My only question is do you have AP 3.0 Hardware or the AP 2.5 hardware like I do. I know when Tesla went from AP 1.0 to AP 2.0 Hardware, there was a long period while the neural net on the new hardware was as good as older hardware. This could be a factor.

CST | 19 June, 2019

A collision while tailgating is not an "accident". It is a "crash". Negligence is not an accident. Just sayin'...

FISHEV | 19 June, 2019

What happens when you increase the following distance to 7?

How much distance was the car leaving at the 4 setting?

vmulla | 19 June, 2019

Yes, It's stopping later on my current software than before, but still stopping at a safe distance. It's just different than before, I'll get used to it.

But that has nothing to do with crashes into 3's rear end.

dmastro | 19 June, 2019

While I agree that it's the responsibility of the person following to maintain a safe distance so they can stop in time to avoid a collision, I don't think autopilot does them any favors. I'm sure everyone has a preference, but I find it applies brakes later than I would, resulting in faster deceleration than I feel comfortable with - which I'm sure causes the people behind me to brake harder than they want to. I tend to turn off AP and let the regenerative braking start earlier if I see traffic stopping ahead. Maybe it's a limitation of how far the sensors can "see"?

Also, I always wonder if the hard braking reduces the effectiveness of the regenerative braking in any way (i.e. is energy that could have gone to regeneration lost by the brake calipers doing the work?) - not that this is germane to this particular issue.

Starboy2016 | 19 June, 2019

My car has AP 2.5. I haven’t had any issues with previous builds. It occurs at 3-4 times a day. Even when I set my car distance further it doesn’t increase the distance or brake any sooner. There were a few cases where it accelerated rapidly and slammed on the brakes in stop and go traffic. Hope the next software update will fix this or may just schedule a service appointment.

Starboy2016 | 19 June, 2019

I agree with you @dmastro. There is definitely a limitation on how far ahead the cameras can see before it starts decelerating. Estimating around 50 yards. There were cases where I can see a slow down ahead going 70mph and Autopilot won’t start decelerating until it gets really close and by then it’s braking really hard.

lbowroom | 19 June, 2019

Starboy, since it didn't sound like you were hit, are you saying the car behind you was rear-ended? and you attribute that to you braking late?

vmulla | 19 June, 2019

There was someone on the forum saying this -
One of the questions I get from people is always "what can you tell me about Tesla?". My response is always the same.... "Never tailgate one!"

It's a good bit of advice.

vmulla | 19 June, 2019

@starboy2016,
While we're on the topic of how far the car's cameras can see -- watch out for intersections around curved roads, they're especially dangerous(If you choose to use AP in those circumstances)

Pepperidge | 19 June, 2019

@Starboy2016
It sounds like radar on your car has issue. Better to check at SC

FISHEV | 19 June, 2019

"There is definitely a limitation on how far ahead the cameras can see before it starts decelerating. Estimating around 50 yards. "

Tesla can stop from 60 mph in 133 ft. Subaru could stop in 125 feet. A dynamic cruise should match keep the car at a safe stopping distance at any speed. If customer adjusts below that, there should be a sticky warning on screen "Distance set too close for speed" just as Tesla does for "Accelerator pressed, car will not brake.

Tesla's front detection seems greater than 150 ft.

Starboy2016 | 19 June, 2019

To clarify the car behind me was not tailgating. As a result of my car hard braking all the cars behind me caused a chain reaction causing others to brake hard and reduced their reaction time. Hard not to feel guilty for causing the accident if my car braked sooner to prevent a chain reaction to occur behind me. Definitely brakes later than what I would be doing myself.

sjm4660 | 19 June, 2019

@Vmulla
Yes, the curved intersection of Bayshore and Willow in the Bay Area is one such intersection. AP doesn't see slowing/stopped traffic until way too late. Also, if I'm in the middle lane, AP tries to rapidly change lanes midway through the intersection because it can't figure out which lines to follow.

lbowroom | 19 June, 2019

FISHEV, It's clear that you completely misunderstand how the Tesla works. You keep harping on this Dynamic Cruise terminology, took me a while to figure out what I think you are claiming. Of coarse Tesla's following distance setting is speed sensitive. It's not just an absolute distance setting. The faster you are traveling, the greater the distance it sets. Either you are mind-blowingly ignorant, or you are purposely spouting nonsense.

Halbach | 19 June, 2019

I agree with the OP. It does brake late...this is less efficient and can be dangerous. The human eye sees brake lights ahead and begins to let off the throttle or start braking....AP doesn't.

jdcollins5 | 19 June, 2019

I am on 16.2 and AP braking is even smoother than before. Mine starts braking sooner and brakes slower, closer to what I would do in manual.

howard | 19 June, 2019

Maybe we should all try to define our cars. Not sure what that is, date built, configuration, software version, hardware version. I would really like to know why some Tesla’s work so amazingly well and others work like the beta software based vehicles that are still under development. Just flat amazing. Some of us are apparently being deliberately ripped off. I want, no demand one of the perfect ones.

kcheng | 19 June, 2019

"Starboy2016 on June 19, 2019
I’m currently on 2019.16.2 and lately on autopilot the car has been braking really late where it caused a car behind me to get into an accident. I’ve set my car distance to 4"

Sounds like someone rear-ended you? Oh, I see, you caused a chain-reaction and someone else rear-ended someone.

"4" should mean a 2-sec gap. Do you feel like you have a 2-sec gap? That's a fairly good-sized gap for urban highway driving. Anything over 0.5 sec, will be dive-bombed in places like LA or Boston.

My Model 3 does too good of a job maintaining that time gap precisely. I tend to be smoother and let the time gap adjust a little. If you think your Model 3 is waiting too long to brake, you should have it looked at.

lbowroom | 19 June, 2019

I used to install car alarms. You push the left button, the car chirps to indicate armed. You push the left button again, two chirps for disarm. The right button was there for accessories like trunk pop if you had that. 99% of the population had no problem with the operating logic. One customer, however really struggled. Sometimes when he pressed the button nothing happened. Radio waves, interference, whatever, sometimes it didn't register. Most people just press it again, hear one or two beeps and can move. Not this guy, he insisted that since he pressed the button it must now be armed so pressing it again would disarm it. This went on for weeks until it escalated to all kinds of threats. In the end, we took it out and refunded his money. Hey Howard, nice to know you're still around.

FISHEV | 19 June, 2019

"Maybe we should all try to define our cars."

Mo better, define our terms, original poster provided no real metrics. A "4" setting should be the same following distance for every Tesla. The OP in this case doesn't know what the 4 distance was before or after. He also didn't note if changing the setting, he can add 40% to it by changing to a "7", helped.

Easy enough to see if OP's car is behaving differently with a $10 golf laser range finder.

My setting at "4" seems conservative to me with the May 2019 LR/AWD basic Tesla leaving a large space to the point people needing to change lanes see my gap and go for it in both stop and go and at 70 mph. Had a big tractor trailer go for it last night. He did a quick shot and got the tractor in front of me with the trailer blocking the "fast lane". No problem with me. I'll bet the space was a "life saver" for him as another 100 yards and he was going to have just stop in the fast lane and wait for someone to let him in.

Sounds like a real issue with his specific car vs. Tesla's following distance settings which don't look to have changed at least in the three updates my car has had.

howard | 19 June, 2019

lbowroom, yah some times the mine works perfectly kind of gets to me. My sincere apology.

I think your on to something I would take a refund!! You offering???

casun | 19 June, 2019

mine works perfectly.

bye howard.

howard | 19 June, 2019

Sure it does. Never had a doubt. Thank you for sharing.

casun | 19 June, 2019

you’re welcome. take care. so long.

ODWms | 19 June, 2019

Coming home from a comedy show a few nights ago in Tampa, I noticed the car waited really late to start braking on Autopilot, coming up on some cars stopped at a light and showing no signs of stopping. I took over with no issue.

vmulla | 19 June, 2019

@Starboy2016,
It's best to leave the aspect of what happens behind your car out of this discussion.
The benchmark should be whether the car brakes safely - if it does then the speed of approach and when it brakes is just a matter of driving style.
I agree with you that the software build 2019.15.x applies brakes closer to the car ahead than previous versions. I have seen variations in braking behavior over the software versions, and attribute this to Tesla engineers trying to fine tune AP behavior..

kaushal | 19 June, 2019

Tesla should really rename Autopilot to something like "Autopilot with mandatory manual supervision" or something like that. Will also protect (hopefully) Tesla from those idiots who are sleeping in their cars while Autopilot engaged, it's really becoming a PR problem. Even Daily Show had a segment about Autopilot last night.

cmh95628 | 21 June, 2019

2018 AWD LR w EAP, purchased Sept 2018. I had late braking one time about 6 days ago. I don't know which version of SW I was on at the time, and have received an update since then. The car braked so late/soft that I am sure I would have rear-ended the car stopped in front of me had I not taken over. Normally, the car leaves one full car length between me and the car stopped ahead. In this case, I was so close that the yellow squiggly lines showed up on the display (so about 2 feet). I also noticed that there was much more travel needed by the brake pedal for the brakes to engage.

FISHEV | 21 June, 2019

" I took over with no issue."

That is the issue.

vmulla | 21 June, 2019

@cmh95628,
Like this? https://photos.app.goo.gl/rtqMhEEjBARvqdcb8

There's braking differently, that's what we're discussing here. It maybe uncomfortable/different but it's ok.

There's also issues of braking insufficiently or failure to break - that's a different discussion in my opinion.

pmagid | 21 June, 2019

I have driven approximately 60% of the 13k miles on my 9 month old 3 on Autopilot. That's a lot of autopilot miles across a lot of versions of firmware. There is no question in my mind that braking has become a problem lately (ie with 2019.20) in that it seems to start later and brake harder. This is something in the past I have never had to worry about. It is a problem now.

FISHEV | 21 June, 2019

“This is something in the past I have never had to worry about. It is a problem now.“

I have only had mine since May 16th (AWD/LR/Red/AP only) and I use the dynamic cruise every day in 100 miles of commuting early freeway to PM full bore rush hour. I had not noticed any difference in the following distance or braking. I’ve had 2019.12 to 2019.20,

I don’t see any difference in the following distance settings either and I feel the dynamic cruise is one of the basics that Tesla got right.

Is there some way to quantify the new braking to see if it’s a real or perceived difference? Wouldn’t Tesla note that kind of change in the release notes as it is changing the way the car operates in a significant manner.

pmagid | 21 June, 2019

"Wouldn’t Tesla note that kind of change in the release notes"

Have you ever read the release notes?

(They make all kinds of material changes all the time without it being mentioned in the release notes.)

FISHEV | 21 June, 2019

Tesla certainly leads one to believe that all major changes are spelled out with the rest described as minor bug fixes and efficiencies. Changing the cars braking behavior of the car is never minor.

But real issue is how to measure to see if its changed and by how much? Is there a change or not?

On it being aggressive, as long as Tesla has the calcs right and never hits anybody, that’s OK. I’m guessing that the hard braking is really hard regeneration so if there is a change could it be more energy is generated by the shorter harder brake effort.

pmagid | 22 June, 2019

There _IS_ a change. Just because you have not noticed it @FISHEV does not mean it does not exist or its all in my head... Measurement would be nice, but I am not sure how to do that without regressing my 3 to an older firmware version. Which is something I am not going to do.

I live and commute in LA (sucks for me) not the rural midwest somewhere.... So, Model 3 stopping shorter and harder although safe for the 3 in question in that it wont crash into anything is going to cause issue for the people behind the 3. And I would classify it as unnecessarily dangerous for those following the model 3. Save your comments about "well thats a problem for the people behind you" or "they shouldnt be following so close or paying so little attention." Driving in LA is what it is and the people do what they do.... And right now I dont view my 3 as a good citizen unless I change the follow distance to 5 or 6 in fast moving traffic or 2 to 3 in stop and go. (It was not like this before)

rdsjan06 | 22 June, 2019

I agree, my M3 EAP HW2.5 2019.16.2 & 2091.20.2 runs up on vehicle in front in heavy traffic and breaks way to late and hard. I see the car in back of me nose dive from really hard breaking. If I wasn't on "Traffic-Aware Cruise Control" I would have already been deaccelerating rather then accelerating.

The car is either too near-sighted, too dumb, or more likely the HW2.5 is too overwhelmed (runs at 80% compared to HW 3 at 5% for the same load) to calculate the correct action in time.

I favor the last reason based on the delay I see when someone makes a left turn in front of me. Even though the will be well clear before I am within 100 feet, the car brakes AS THE CROSSING CAR IS ALREADY OUT OF MY LANE (or very very close to being clear). This happens a lot.

I've also been able to break before it reacted when it really should have. That's because I can see the turn signal, wheels of the other car turning as the make their left I am already on the breaks. This has happened only a couple times.

I still love using EAP on my 20 mile trip into work in rush house, but I do kick it off to keep myself and the people behind me safe.

rdsjan06 | 22 June, 2019

and one last thing....

I won't get FSD until HW5 :-)

FISHEV | 22 June, 2019

"There _IS_ a change. Just because you have not noticed it @FISHEV does not mean it does not exist or its all in my head."

But what is the change? I thought I was being super efficient driving and then I ran the actual numbers and my range is 20% below rated.

On the dynamic cruise braking distance, we are ALL talking perceptions which is why I suggested figuring out a way to get some actual numbers. Data is good. I use dynamic cruise 90% of the time in all conditions and I don't perceive a difference. At a 4 following distance, the car leaves a pretty big gap during rush hour. Do you find that gap is the same but the braking is different or gap and braking are both more aggressive (less distance, harder braking).

And changing a key safety feature' behavior should certainly warrant a Release Note from Tesla.

So how to turn perception into data?

Neomaxizoomdweebie | 22 June, 2019

@FISHEV,
What is this Dynamic Cruise you speak of? Are you sure you have a Tesla?

pmagid | 22 June, 2019

@FISHEV your argument about you being confused about your "efficient driving" is a complete non-sequitur. It is super effing obvious when you are rushing up at the back of stopped cars and braking hard and late. Its exceedingly obvious especially when the car in prior releases was not doing that. Whereas, "efficient driving" is much more nebulous and subtle. Not the same thing at all.

Anyway, what are you hoping to accomplish by nay-saying and poo-pooing something quite a number of people are seeing and reporting? Why is it any skin off your nose? The people reporting it are clearly trying to get Teslas attention to get it fixed. Why would you be so adamantly against that?

I agree with @Neomaxizoomdweebie, are you even an owner? The comment about release notes got me suspicious, but the "dynamic cruise breaking" seems to be a dead giveaway.... I thought non-owner trolls were supposed to be banned from this forum.....

FISHEV | 22 June, 2019

“It is super effing obvious when you are rushing up at the back of stopped cars and braking hard and late. Its exceedingly obvious especially when the car in prior releases was not doing that.”

Yeah...not getting that at all though. I’m set on following distance of 4 and that leaves a lot of room and car starts slowing down way early if I’m coming up on stopped traffic at 60 mph. Behavior did not change on my car which started on 2019.12 and is now 2019.20. Only reason I can thing Tesla would change the braking pattern would be to get more regen power back and maybe shorter harder braking vs. longer slowing braking does that through I’d thing the reverse was true.

We may be seeing the same thing and just perceiving it differently which is why I suggested finding someway to get some metrics. Should be easy to do some tests at a local track.

This is the kind of thing where having an actual Tesla owners support forum would be helpful with Tesla techs answering questions like this vs. the he brakes, she brakes opinions.

Neomaxizoomdweebie | 22 June, 2019

Right Fish, except you don’t own a Tesla.

pmagid | 22 June, 2019

"my car which started on 2019.12"

AHA! So you are a NOOB. You have only had your car since 2019.12 which means you are new enough an owner that you may even be lucky enough to have v3 hardware. Which very well could explain why you are not seeing this obvious and non-subtle issue and so many others are....

Again why nay-say others experiences particularly if you are really new here (and may have a different situation than the bulk of drivers).... Consider that you may not know as much as you think before you type.

FISHEV | 22 June, 2019

"Again why nay-say others experiences"

Just noted that I was not seeing it. Didn't say you weren't.

"why you are not seeing this obvious and non-subtle issue and so many others are...."

I don't see many people having the issue here only four(?) in this thread saw it, more did not see it. I don't see this topic at all on the other Tesla forums like Reddit or InsideEV's. Not like the Emergency Lane Keeping for example which is a common problem and common thread on all the forums.

Again not to say you are not having the problem but no hard data, no note from Tesla on the change, no feedback from the few who have the problem on what changing following settings does and few reporting it.

pmagid | 22 June, 2019

You have experience with a grand total of two (count em) two firmware version. No wonder you havent seen the issue... But that hasn't stopped you from spouting off about how it does not exist. The arrogance.... I bet you think you are the smartest person any room you walk into. Dunning Kruger much @FISHEV?

pmagid | 22 June, 2019

You have experience with a grand total of two (count em) two firmware version. No wonder you havent seen the issue... But that hasn't stopped you from spouting off about how it does not exist. The arrogance.... I bet you think you are the smartest person any room you walk into. Dunning Kruger much @FISHEV?

Hal Fisher | 22 June, 2019

If the person in front of you is a late braker that will make the tesla late brake. But it sounds like your sonar may be faulty because I have noticed the opposite in the last few updates.

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