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Stockton, CA giving $500/month basic income and it works

Stockton, CA giving $500/month basic income and it works

Stockton, CA giving $500/month basic income and it works
Submitted by Mike83 on October 3, 2019
People are responsible and this must upset the right wingers
https://www.sacbee.com/news/local/article235716022.html?
andy.connor.e | October 3, 2019
Im sure people will be saving that money for when its really needed, and not find a way to spend it each and every month and ultimately not actually have any more money at the end of the month.
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Mike83 | October 3, 2019
That is the problem. They don't make enough money and have to borrow to eat, send their kids to school and pay for dental and medical. But the money they get goes right into the economy.
Did you see that credit card interest is something like 24% interest. This is in America?
andy.connor.e | October 3, 2019
I see the problem that we should be addressing, that people have to borrow money to eat and send their kids to school and pay for dental and medical. The problem cannot be simply solved by giving people free money. Thats basically a subsidy. Right now its being funded by others and not by the state itself, but it only is costing $3 million right now for 130 people for 18 months, and because its a study. People are willing to fund a study, who will fund free money?
Theres a problem if people need to borrow money in order to eat. Why is that?
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dmastro | October 3, 2019
Are they using basic income to purchase M3s? Trying to understand the nexus here relative this forum..
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jimglas | October 3, 2019
@andy: because the minimum wage doesn't provide a living wage. Most Walmart employees are on food stamps.
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Mike83 | October 3, 2019
Automation and lack of education are the problems. Lets suppose we stop subsidizing the fossil fuel kingpins like the fossil fuel industries and reduce the excessive defense budget that protects the fossil fuel interests. Set up Solar for free energy and drive EV's using solar and wind. People want to contribute and feel useful.
I know its a paradigm shift but we must think outside of the box as the Climate Crisis will be 100 times more costly.
Effopec | October 3, 2019
I don't agree that UBI is the answer, but I believe the minimum wage should be much higher. Nobody working full time should be living in poverty. Trickle down economics has never worked, but trickle up does. People living at or below the poverty line spend everything they have on necessities & that money goes right back into the economy.
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andy.connor.e | October 3, 2019
I think the problem here is that either the cost of living is unnecessarily higher than it needs to be, or people are being paid much too little than they should be. Walmart can afford to pay their employees more, your typical mom & pop corner store cannot.
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Mike83 | October 3, 2019
I went to Walmart once and the sales people there had bad or missing teach and it was sad to deal with. I don't shop there but do shop at Costco where they pay employees a living wage.
But as robotics, AI displaces more jobs(even doctors via AI diagnostics) people will need help in the transition.
I know people knocked Clinton but she offered job training for coal workers which would have been a better option than rewarding the executives that run the place and leaving them with no jobs.
We need real smart leaders instead of ideologies who live in their bubble world.

I had posted this on Model 3 forum

TranzNDance | 3 October, 2019

Rich people get handouts, they're just called "tax deductions". :D The mortgage interest alone on a $1 million dollar home is about what they're paying for monthly basic income. They can even get the mortgage interest deduction on a second home. That's just excessive, especially when there are people struggling to afford one place to live.

The capital gains tax rate is beneficial to rich people more than to the poor.

There are several more ways that the rich benefit from the tax code.

rxlawdude | 3 October, 2019

"Each month for 18 months, 130 adults living in the city’s lower-income neighborhood will receive $500 to spend however they want."
"Last year, 4,200 letters were randomly sent to individuals living in areas with a median household income at or below $46,033, the city’s median at the time."
Source: https://www.sacbee.com/news/local/article226280230.html

How is this remotely UNIVERSAL BASIC INCOME? What part of "universal" did I miss, and why is this any different than boosting [cash] aid to economically challenged people?

andy.connor.e | 3 October, 2019

It will become a subsidy. I dont agree with the idea of giving free money to people.

SamO | 3 October, 2019

@rx,

You seem seriously confused about basic facts.

1. Universal means it is offer to everyone in the selected grioup for this experiment. In the larger context, Universal means it is given to every adult over the age of 18, without means testing, or any other government intrusion into citizens lives. (Sometimes it is called Unconditional BI).

As an aside, you've asked for proof that this method of cash transfer works. Here's a test and we'll see the outcome versus income cohorts from the same zip codes.

2. "Why is this different?" UBI is the single best tool for raising people out of poverty. If you want to end poverty, then this is the best economic method.

Here are some great research papers so you can educate yourself:

http://www.academia.edu/Documents/in/Universal_Basic_Income

andy.connor.e | 3 October, 2019

@SamO

"2. "Why is this different?" UBI is the single best tool for raising people out of poverty. If you want to end poverty, then this is the best economic method."

Where does the UBI money come from?

rxlawdude | 3 October, 2019

Ah, so now you are backpedaling on what UNIVERSAL means. The CONTEXT of this whole thread was about Yangs UNIVERSAL "freedom dividend" that would go to ALL PEOPLE.

Here (Stockton), participants were pre-selected based on living in zip codes with lower household incomes. Most of these are eligible (and probably receiving) other forms of assistance (SNAP, WIC, etc.).

So this "UNIVERSAL" income is only universal for pre-selected, low-income individuals.

This is not evidence of Yang's approach being desirable.

andy.connor.e | 3 October, 2019

The example @rx has expanded on, sounds like glorified welfare.

Still, where does the UBI money come from?

Mike83 | 3 October, 2019

The information is in the article. I suggest people read it prior to posting their opinions.
Personally I don't know if it works but the the article suggests it helps people in a bind.
Consider someone stealing bread to live and he goes to jail for theft and the state must pay $30,000 year($2500/month) and who pays for this?
This is an experiment and the results look quite good. The US is a place where a medical issue can put you on the street. No mercy.
Yang seems smart to me. When AI takes your job you have a life vest to live and retrain or like the GOP just pull yourself up and if you get sick, sorry.

andy.connor.e | 3 October, 2019

that or it will become the new welfare.

Mike83 | 3 October, 2019

Yang said he is the man to beat trump as he is the opposite; an Asian man who can do math. I like people who have a sense of humor. More honest in my view.

https://www.sacbee.com/news/politics-government/capitol-alert/article228...

rxlawdude | 3 October, 2019

@Mike83, I loved that line from Yang.

Not enough to put him on my list of viable prospectives, but enough to prove he's indeed an order of magnitude smarter than the Orange-a-Tan.

SamO | 3 October, 2019

By your logic, even giving UBI to every AMERICAN wouldn’t be universal because there are people who don’t receive it in Mexico.

The mental gymnastics required to actively misunderstand a topic so badly, is truly stunning.

andy.connor.e | 4 October, 2019

There doesnt seem to be a plan for where the UBI money will come from.

SamO | 4 October, 2019

I think it's pronounced "taxes" . Yang calls for a VAT on robots.

https://youtu.be/n2NXU1aTt_o

andy.connor.e | 4 October, 2019

@SamO

Im on board with that idea so long as the tax money collected from that program is EXCLUSIVELY used for the UBI as indicated. Im not on board if it becomes another welfare for the poor, or is basically used for anything other than the UBI program.

SamO | 4 October, 2019

Fair enough. I’ve advocated for a carbon tax with a direct rebate as UBI. But then when you reduce carbon use, you increase the tax per ton.

But at some point we transition to renewables so the UBI goes away.

Maybe a bonus UBI based on carbon + VAT.

andy.connor.e | 4 October, 2019

I bet if you increase the tax, companies will just take the hit and not reduce. I think you have to leave the incentive to get rid of them as a means of long term cost savings, and have it be a flat rate that is subject to change over time and not amount reduced.

what do you think?

rxlawdude | 4 October, 2019

@SamO, all due respect, but it's you misappropriating my point.

An international border delineates the governments'
treatment of people based on which side they live.

UBI in the USA is irrelevant to Mexicans and Canadians. It's universal for all adults.

What Stockton has piloted is targeted subsidies. Nothing to see here.

SamO | 4 October, 2019

Ha ha ha. Dismissing what you don’t understand.

Par for the course, counselor. Come back when you have the a scintilla of a clue.

Another old dog who can’t be bothered to learn anything new. Very very sad.

Techy James | 7 October, 2019

We are technologically on a verge of a major economic upset. Gone is the old adage that is you put in a hard days of work, you can make a reasonable living for yourself. Today manual labor is quickly being replaced by automation.
This automation started in factories reducing the number of people required while allowing automated machines to do labor of several people. The next target is automation in retail. Replacing both Cashier's and Stockers with automated tools. Before you had 1 casher per register. With Self Checkout you can have as many as 8 registers to 1 attendant watching over. Now for the most costly role in a company CEO's, predictive AI is starting to be as good as the best CEO's. It's only a matter of time before a trending company takes a leap to try replacing the CEO with a Predictive AI unit.
Another way automation will impact society as we know in the next 5 years, is Self Driving Trucks and cars. Both Lyft and Uber see their biggest change is keeping the Drivers happy and finding that perfect balance between fares and paying drivers. Image how many more people will be looking at loosing a means of income as Automation takes over driving.
Some numbers to give you an idea of the market that will be lose to Automation in then 5 to 10 years in just the USA.
Retail 29 Million.
Truck Drivers 3.5 Million.
Rideshares drivers 400 - 600 Thousand.
Cab Drivers 208 Thousand.

That is an estimated 33 Million people that could lose their livelihood due to automation.
Granted a small percentage might be close enough they can retire. Then a few can retrain for a new technology career, but even those positions will be limited. But in a day and time industries are looking to maximize their profits and reduce there labor dollars this will only continue to see jobs replaced by automation, there is only so many new jobs that will be available to the workforce we have now to replace the lose jobs to automation.

Mike83 | 7 October, 2019

Excellent post Techy James. thanks.
And the GM strike continues. It is a can of worms with the corruption in the UAW along with GM dragging its feet.

andy.connor.e | 7 October, 2019

We are starting to recognize that retail is not an appropriate occupation to capitalize on for the majority of employment anymore.

rxlawdude | 7 October, 2019

You know the death knell for retail is nigh when COSTCO STARTS SELF-CHECKOUT LINES!

SamO | 7 October, 2019

+1 for everyone who sees the upcoming robot apocalypse.

There may be many solutions but doing nothing/the same won’t work.

Nexxus | 22 October, 2019

@Techy James,
"It's only a matter of time before a trending company takes a leap to try replacing the CEO with a Predictive AI unit."

Yeah, then we'll see a "Watson" as CEO again, like IBM had at one time...you know, the computer that beat everyone at Jeopardy.

jimglas | 22 October, 2019

and chess

SCCRENDO | 22 October, 2019

I still do not understand why you guys are upset at automation. This is progress and provided it is a better way we should embrace it. Sure there will be collateral damage in people losing jobs. As a society we need to be resourceful and create new clean modern jobs for those being displaced. When the automobile was invented did everyone protest that the horse business was disappearing. Should we be crying because Elon is trying to get rid of car dealers. Should we be crying for the fossil fuel industry and gas guzzling cars and trucks. Progress is developing our initiative and creating better jobs that improve our economy and our overall well being. We need need to help those without jobs. But free handouts to all does not create anything. Create work not handouts.

jimglas | 22 October, 2019

I read somewhere that 40% of American jobs have to do with transportation. There is going to be a major social change the day FSD is available.

andy.connor.e | 22 October, 2019

and none of this automation is going to take over peoples jobs overnight. Just like everything in history, it takes time. Cars did not replace horses overnight. If everyone knows what is going to happen to certain jobs, start looking for another damn job in an industry that will not be replaced.

jimglas | 22 October, 2019

I don't think cars are a good example for the coming change. I think more like how long it took for everyone to adopt smart phones. Or facebook.

andy.connor.e | 22 October, 2019

Probably about 5 years. Start looking now.

SCCRENDO | 22 October, 2019

We are talking automated cashiers, robots on car production lines, farming machines, computers replacing secretaries etc. Jobs have been disappearing and will continue to disappear. We just need to understand that it is happening and adapt accordingly

Uncle Paul | 22 October, 2019

Have the robots do all the work, and everybody gets free everything!

No more need for money, no unemployment, no theft, free healthcare, nobody ever retires because they never had a job in the first place. No more military, drones do all the killing/fighting, no more need for politicians as everything is free, do your own thing, no more police, no more jails, no more garages, parking lots, parking structures, gas stations, car dealerships, stores *amazon delivers everything).
No more credit cards, banks, schools, toll roads, cell phone bills, cable bills,electric bills, gas bills property taxes, income taxes, etc.

Governments will no longer be needed, all taxes will be eliminated. The government will no longer need to issue money or regulate anything. FREE is so simple...
UTOPIA!

SCCRENDO | 22 October, 2019

@Uncle. Many a true word said in jest. But indeed that may be the future when AI has been developed to it’s full extent. But alas this will not happen in our lifetime. We need to work the transition well. UBI will come. But unlike some here I do not believe it is ready for prime time yet. We still need to work and be rewarded for it. And we do need to help others find meaningful work. Those who cannot need to be helped financially. And despite what you told us you may have to give up your hospital bed to someone more needy than you.

blue adept | 23 October, 2019

@andy.connor.e

I, too, agree that it is little more than a form of "glorified welfare" embodied in the form of a 'hand out' when what welfare was and is meant to be is a 'hand up', that is, just a temporary bit of assistance to help you get by until you can manage to 'get' for yourself.

Welfare offices already provide employment assistance in the form of daily job listings, transportation vouchers to get you to and from a job interview, even to and from the job for a period of time (until you're able to cover your own transportation costs) if you get it, resume assistance, internet access (for job searching), etc., etc.

What they need to do now is adapt to the emerging paradigm by including free training classes to educate employment seekers in the skillsets and trades that will make and keep them employable to meet the emerging shift to tech oriented fields of employment.

So nothing so dramatic as living wage handouts will be required nor will there emerge anything as dystopian as @Techy James envisions (or even as 'utopian' as @Uncle Paul fantasizes as people require purpose and the opportunity for self-improvement/enrichment for a sense of validation...It's psychosomatic and essential to an individual's quality of life and perception of self), that is, as long as the world's leaders step up and do their jobs by ensuring that the necessary provisions are made to keep the public-at-large active, engaged, employed and able to provide for themselves.

+1 @SCCRENDO for "We just need to understand that it is happening and adapt accordingly" and about the expressed necessity for maintaining a level of self-sufficiency for personal growth.

andy.connor.e | 23 October, 2019

I like the @Uncle Paul approach.

SCCRENDO | 23 October, 2019

And indeed AI may get us there. However Uncle will still have to give up some privileges. Others may still need hospital beds.

Darthamerica | 23 October, 2019

This seems like a bad idea. People need to work for a variety of reasons. Even with automation displacing some jobs, there are always other things people can do. People need to be prepared to move on to other work vs expecting a government handout.

andy.connor.e | 23 October, 2019

There are too many people on this planet to have everyone not working towards a goal. There would have to be a separation of people who are working to improve the world, and people who just want to live and do whatever. Some people would want to invest their lives into public service which in this case could be anything regarding research innovation or development, and some people would just want to wake up and hang out and enjoy the planet that we have. Some want to visit the national parks, some want to develop interstellar travel abilities. To each their own. But if this is the future, we should start thinking about how we will make this work for 8 billion people.

Darthamerica | 23 October, 2019

Andy I don't think this will work. Some extreme progressives will try it in places like California. But I can't see Americans as a whole supporting something like this.

andy.connor.e | 23 October, 2019

People on welfare would welcome this with open arms

blue adept | 23 October, 2019

@andy.connor.e

IDK, I think @Uncle Paul's vision of utopia overlooks the inherent human need of self-validation and improvement for personal well being, which you've touched on in your subsequent comment, and we're still throwing away 40% of usable foodstuffs and aren't even practicing recycling so I don't see a temporary (given its' inherently cyclical nature) increase in population becoming an issue in the future.

The only issue I can foresee is leaving behind a world largely uninhabitable by our children and their children because we're not taking the necessary precautions to rectify the all too apparent heinous abuse of this planet's resources for selfish personal gain that has been the norm for decades now.

blue adept | 23 October, 2019

@andy.connor.e

I'm sure a lot of people would welcome a 'free ride', but that isn't exactly conducive to a healthy or satisfactory psyche or physiology.

andy.connor.e | 23 October, 2019

We have a system setup that rewards selfishness

blue adept | 23 October, 2019

IMHO, it is so much that we've "a system setup that rewards selfishness" as it is that we've individuals out there who've devised means of exploiting an inherently benign system to suit their own malign purposes at the expense of others.

andy.connor.e | 23 October, 2019

Both really. Imagine if people cared enough to donate their time to help people in their community. IMO, money is the least efficient way to get anything done when people could just literally go and help without expecting some kind of compensation for their time. Pay someone $400 to help you move, or have 8 people who have free time donate a half hour or so helping you move a couple things each. I can only imagine what life could be like.

blue adept | 23 October, 2019

Moving?! That's what friends, pizza, and beer are for!

blue adept | 23 October, 2019

You know, in the broader term, there once was a time in our history when everyone was able to "fend" for themselves by growing their own crops and raising their own livestock to feed themselves.

There were also community unions that banded together and took turns tending the crops and livestock to ensure that everyone had enough available to satisfy their needs along with some extra that they could sell off to cover other necessities or indulgences.

Some cultures and demographics still do this today and there has been an increase in some areas of so-called "communal living" farmsteads cropping up (no pun intended) here and there as the strife seen emerging in our society is having the effect of drawing once disparate people together towards the pursuit of a common goal.

SCCRENDO | 23 October, 2019

I think people are confusing different aspects. I responding to uncle in the long term. If you listen to Elon, in the long term when AI has fully developed there will be limited need for human to do very much. All tasks and even supervision and planning may be carried out by computers. There may be a limited role fro humans to perhaps "police" the computers to ensure they do not go rogue.So we will not need may jobs and people could spend their time in leisure activities which would include volunteering. We would provide a UBI for people to use for their leisure activities. There also would be some room for people to earn more income if UBI is insufficient for their needs. But collecting wads of money would not be necessary. But this utopia is unlikely to be something that reaches fruition in our lifetime. So our main focus should be on dealing with the transition in the fairest way possible.

jimglas | 23 October, 2019

What do we do when Skynet becomes self aware?

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