Forums

We need something else to talk about: designing a boat from first principles

We need something else to talk about: designing a boat from first principles

Those of us who enjoy function, and first principles, join me here. No patents. Open.
@andyelectric calling you for creativity!

Ross1 | 9 May, 2020

Why do you need a boat?
To go in the water.

Why do you want to go in the water with a boat?
It keeps me safe and I can see what is in and on the water.

What is the most efficient way of going in the water, keeping safe and seeing what is in and on the water?

Help me out here, I may be going in the wrong direction but for Something Else folk, let's go!

Ross1 | 9 May, 2020

I am designing this ultra simple, never been done THING. Help me design the THING please?

autolover | 9 May, 2020

Hello ! I love Tesla !

Ross1 | 9 May, 2020

..and of course, @blueadept but that is a gioven. Will he bring electro magnetism to the solution, and ...why not?

Ross1 | 9 May, 2020

given

Ross1 | 9 May, 2020

Function and first principles: isnt that why we orderedf our Cybertrucks?
And avoid apostropopophes?

autolover | 9 May, 2020

I just worried, if Tesla took two loans from China for mostly 2 billions of dollars total*- does it mean what China already own Shanghai Tesla Factory. And i do not plan buy Tesla from China. What to do ?
2019 year - 1.4 Billions
Yesterday - 500 millions

Ross1 | 9 May, 2020

wrong thread Charlie

autolover | 9 May, 2020

Sorry

Magic 8 Ball | 9 May, 2020

I have a revolutionary design, it is secret tho'.

jimglas | 9 May, 2020

birchbark canoe
sustainable transportation

andy.connor.e | 9 May, 2020

unfortunately, all i can really offer for boats on first principals is what kind of boat are you designing? If it were me, i would like something that can hold a bunch of people and moves at a slow cruising speed because thats my personality. The calm party vibe environment. Needs high surface area, and perhaps a way to take advantage of the breeze. If it were an electric boat, i think they will have the same problem as planes, where the battery either cannot be big enough for a day's cruise, or will need to wait for higher densities. The heavier the boat, the more energy required to move it through the water.

Ross1 | 9 May, 2020

I am thinking of a clear tube you can see thru, it can upend and provide underwater viewing.
Scalable.

andy.connor.e | 9 May, 2020

that would be pretty cool

Magic 8 Ball | 9 May, 2020

Recent travel commercial shows kayaks molded completely from see through plastic. Already done. Looked to be a molded shell, possibly vac formed, very neat.

Ross1 | 9 May, 2020

If you just have a tube, extruded polycarbonate, that is so many less operations.
If you were doing a kayak, the max diam of tube made seems to be 500 mm, which would fit a small person inside.
Seal the 2 ends,
Cut the tube 1/3 2/3, put the bigger one half full of water'so it tips to vertical.
the smaller one is hinged to the bigger one and carries a second person above water, the lookout buddy.
The keel of the kayak slides off and becomes a sea anchor on a rope to keep it upright.
The main person is standing in water in the big tube which has gone vertical now, and the little tube is dry but also vertical, but the fish and things are outside, hopefully.

M-A-B-MCMLXXX | 9 May, 2020

“ What is the most efficient way of going in the water, keeping safe and seeing what is in and on the water?”

A mask.

andy.connor.e | 9 May, 2020

gopro

Ross1 | 9 May, 2020

ok you are thinking.

My Gopro shares went underwater and never returned

Orthopod | 10 May, 2020

Floating capacity
Battery the lowest possible for maximum stability
Solar roof for renewable energy

Ross1 | 10 May, 2020

So the battery could double as the keel which slides off and doubles as a sea anchor

FISHEV | 11 May, 2020

@Ross1 | May 9, 202 I am designing this ultra simple, never been done THING. Help me design the THING please?"

I'll help. It's been done already. Lots of great choices. You are likely not a boater or you'd know this...kind of like @andy.connor.e our other non-Tesla owning, non-Tesla driving Tesla advisor to actual Tesla owners and drivers.

andy.connor.e | 11 May, 2020

Hey FISHEV thanks for asking. I've been boating for over 20 years. Whats amazing is that i dont even own the car and i can I offer viable advice just by reading and retaining other owners experiences, and its hard to actually compare with you since you dont actually offer advice.

FISHEV | 11 May, 2020

@andy.connor.e | May 11, 2020 Hey FISHEV thanks for asking.

Wasn't as your name is not @Ross1 to whom I was replying. As for your being a non-Tesla owning, non-Tesla driving nitwit offering advice to actual Tesla owners, it is simply someone being an idiot on Tesla owners forum.

andy.connor.e | 11 May, 2020

Dont use me as part of your inaccurate representations then. Call me a nitwit all you want, because everyday that you get proven wrong the evidence piles up for anyone willing to pay attention.

blue adept | 11 May, 2020

So you basically want something like this:

https://seabreacher.com/seabreacher-x/

As you can see while it is primarily designed for aquatic surface level travel it is capable of submersive/underwater travel which, from the looks of it, could be increased with a little re-engineering if so desired.

andy.connor.e | 11 May, 2020

One of those things would be so much fun.

blue adept | 11 May, 2020

Yep!

M-A-B-MCMLXXX | 11 May, 2020

hah that looks awesome. I want.

blue adept | 11 May, 2020

It can dive to 5 ft. down and travel at 20 mph or run the surface at up to 60 mph!

They are currently configured to be powered by an ICE, but they can be adapted to BEV easily enough which might even stand to up the performance numbers.

M-A-B-MCMLXXX | 11 May, 2020

"but they can be adapted to BEV easily enough which might even stand to up the performance numbers."

If the thing displaces enough water to offset the weight of batteries. Note fuel is less dense than water.

andy.connor.e | 11 May, 2020

It wouldnt realistically require more than an hour of runtime worth of batteries

Ross1 | 11 May, 2020

Nice, but not first principles in the way I was thinking, manufacturing.

I spelled it out above.

I have been a boat person. A yacht works best when every part has more than one use.

Last boat was a 36 ft world capable yacht, bilge keels.
Before that, a 14 ft runabout.
Lots of kayaks.

M-A-B-MCMLXXX | 11 May, 2020

yikes, that thing costs $60k plus shipping.

andy.connor.e | 11 May, 2020

dam, thats a cybertruck and FSD

Ross1 | 11 May, 2020

So you better get back to the drawing board, our singular structure is a single clear tube.

Magic 8 Ball | 12 May, 2020

Putting on a "tube' constraint conflicts with a first principles approach.

blue adept | 12 May, 2020

@Ross1

But you said that you want a "clear tube" that is capable of both surface and below surface travel...

I mean, if you want to sock yourself into a condom with a monofin on your feet to get about with and jump into the water somewhere, or form a polycarbonate test tube looking thing bent into an "L" shape with a hatch at one end and some means of propulsion then, by all means, be my guest, but I think that something more practically designed would be a better option.

You said "first principles", well, the 'first principle' in boating is to not drown/to stay on the surface of the water, so wanting an 'underwater experience' pretty much contradicts the one with the other unless you're referring to a glass-bottomed boat.

blkice | 12 May, 2020

Been working on a permanent magnet motor for awhile now. Have got it to run for about 15 minutes. It would work on dugout canoe with the right fitments

blue adept | 22 May, 2020

@@Ross1

Or what about building yourself one of those bubble subs from that "The Meg" movie?

They can travel along the surface and, if you want to do some diving, just blow the ballast and you can submerge them up to so many feet for however long.

https://3.bp.blogspot.com/-zenl6Dbyzgg/W3NH6ruUq8I/AAAAAAAAC8Q/R8XWExhEd...

https://projectswordtoys.blogspot.com/2018/08/meg-bubble-sub.html

Het hele heldere, draaibare, bi-assige articulerende sigaarbuis-ding klinkt voor mij net zo onpraktisch als de eerste keer dat je het al die jaren geleden noemde toen je je een weg naar een 'A' - 'C'de B "gesprek bij, denk ik, bij je moeder.

Ross1 | 22 May, 2020

I am making a model, 100mm (4") dia. from PVC pipe for proof of concept.
I have ordered a length of acrylic clear tube for the next visuals.

Ross1 | 22 May, 2020

@ blue:
Thanks, I see how complicated they are.
Mine might be called a tube sub. Very simple.

Ross1 | 22 May, 2020

what is with the double dutch?

blue adept | 22 May, 2020

Det klare, nedsænkende, cigareformede rør med artikulerende bi-aksiale slutning lyder lige så upraktisk for mig nu, som det gjorde, da du først nævnte det for mig den dag, hvor du "ville" din vej ind i et "A" - "B" samtale, K.

Better?

blue adept | 22 May, 2020

@Ross1

>>> "I am making a model, 100mm (4") dia. from PVC pipe for proof of concept.
I have ordered a length of acrylic clear tube for the next visuals."

Don't overlook the need to design and manufacture a pair of circular, 45 degreed, articulating hermetic seals to actuate the submersible end of your transparent "tube" sub so that it can be submerged while the rest of the craft stays above the surface.

I understand that you're trying to replicate the experience you get when you visit one of those aquatic aquariums scattered all about the place that feature submerged acrylic tunnels for viewing the sea life in their natural habitat, but the complications arise when you say that you want the vehicle to be capable of surface travel with an submersible, articulating end for submerged viewing...

You can have a craft that does one or the other, or even both, but the complexity increases exponentially when you say you want a craft that can, essentially, transform its shape to allow for undersea viewing while remaining airtight, and then transition back to surface travel.

Understand?

You'd be far better off, and it'd be far easier to attain, were you to simply buy one of those "sea breacher" power dolphin things, or build yourself one of those "bubble" subs depicted in "The Meg" movie or, hell, just build a transparent acrylic or polycarbonate tube with a motor, oxygen tanks and recirculator, and a ballast system that would enable you to submerge for a period of time.

Better yet, just build a glass bottomed boat where the entire draft or draught of the hull/keel is transparent acrylic or polycarbonate! Then you could enjoy the Sun topside or the sea life below deck without having to engineer some overly complicated method of submerging part of the vessel.

In fact, there are already what are known as "heavy-lift ships", essentially vessels that are designed to move very large loads that cannot be handled by normal ships that are semi-submersible by taking on water ballast to lower/sink the ship low enough to accommodate the keel depths of the ship(s) they intend to haul, then "blows" or evacuates the water ballast to raise it back up for travel that could be modified in a manner that would allow for both surface and submerged viewing simultaneously!

How's that?!

Ross1 | 23 May, 2020

yes, you are getting into it!
Great!
There are two ways to go, one where you sit on the craft and paddle it, then open the hatch.
The other where you die from lack of oxygen by being sealed inside the sub.

We need a hybrid of those.

blue adept | 23 May, 2020

>>> "The other where you die from lack of oxygen by being sealed inside the sub."

I guess you missed the part where I said '...oxygen tanks and recirculator...'?

You want this "craft" to be manually operated (like a canoe for instance) with a "hatch" that allows access to the submerged section??

That'll cause a lot of drag that would greater impede the craft's performance and hamper a user's ability to navigate.

Ross1 | 23 May, 2020

I didnt miss it, I ignored it.
Because it defies the minimalist first principles approach.

blue adept | 23 May, 2020

Alright, so this is to be a one-person craft?

Ross1 | 23 May, 2020

yes but version 2 .0 has a lookout standing in the lid which is now flipped ove but hinged to the main capsule.

Its bedtime here.

Pages