Chevy bolt is priced at 43-48k in NH and looks like a mini garbage truck in comparison to a T3.
jordanrichard: +1 Agree on the Volt backseat. 2 seats at best, and just the kids or short people in those seats. A huge design flaw and probably would have sold double the amount with a couple inches more headroom. The Bolt should solve that problem - at least from what I've seen in the test rides.
makobill, I obviously agree, but in all fairness, the headroom in a MS is not exactly generous. I have the Pano roof, and when sitting in the back (I am 5' 9"), my head touches the headliner if I lean back. At least on the MS this is due to the car's require shape to help make it the most aerodynamic car on the road.
As you said, the room in the Bolt appears to be really good, but what else do you expect for a box on wheels.
Ordering guide is online now for the Bolt according to insideev's - couldn't find it on the Bolt official page, but here is a link to the article.
No big surprises - no pricing, but interesting to read in the differences in trim packages and available options.
I haven't sat in a MS, so I"ll take your word on the backseat, but from what I saw in the M3 rides, with people in the back, they have more headroom than the Volt. We'll see!
Same is true on all cars that size with full backseats. Volt didn't used to have it, opting for two seats in the back so it is a plus. In addition the back seat folds down and the 2017 Volt is officially a "hatchback" greatly increasing the utility of the vehicle.
They did a nice job on the new styling also, it is a head turner which is what lead me to look up the 2017 model. I can just make it to work on a charge which would mean 5 gallons of gas a week vs. current 12. 60% reduction in GHG.
The Bolt could make my commute with a charge and a half.
That Volt and Bolt are hatchbacks puts the pressure on Tesla, what did they do to make the trunk opening better?
They could slap you as hard as they could and repeatedly state " wait for the Model Y, imbecile" but it would clearly have no effect.
EaglesPDX, you are correct, they did a great job of restyling the Volt. However, no other cars on the road have such a large center hump in the back, not even RWD BMWs, Mercedes, etc. That large hump just makes the interior seem more cramped especially for the poor sucker that has to sit in the middle.
The head room in the forth coming M≡ ahs been said to be great. In watching all the various videos from the reveal, there were people who were 6' 3", commenting about still having 2 inches of headroom, while siting in the back seat. In the Volt, that person would take on the fetal position to fit in the back seat.
The Bolt is a different story because it is a box on wheels and has the graceful looks of a box on wheels..
@jordanrichard "The Bolt is a different story because it is a box on wheels and has the graceful looks of a box on wheels."
WIRED called the Bolt sleek. Guess they didn't have your fear and loathing of all EV's not Tesla.
The full back seat on the new Volt is a big plus because it allows not only for people but for stuff without the odd two buck setup. It also allows for the 60/40 fold down, coupled with the big hatchback, adds a lot of utility to the car.
@EaglesPDX - +1 Utility is key for the Bolt. These two cars are apples and oranges. Not sure why we can't like fruit salad and variety, but completely understand the beef with GM and the history. We have to just keep in mind that the Bolt succeeding is part of the master plan. I for one will take the utility over an ICE compromise while I wait on the Model 3 without a second thought. More EV's on the road = a good thing.
"A loaded Volt will be $42K less the $7,500 Federal Credit. If the T3 with range, autopilot, AWD is pushing $60K and a financial reach in 2018, the Volt or Bolt would be a viable alternative."
So not biased at all. The Bolt doesn't even allow an autopilot option, nor a AWD option, nor a long range option.
The Model ≡ starts at $35,000, the Bolt at $37,500. With the Tesla I can order exactly the options I want, and thus get exactly the price point I want; with a Bolt, I get what the dealer has. The only people who care about 'loaded price' are morons who must buy the most expensive regardless of what they actually need. If production of both cars meets their respective manufacturers claims, about 100,000 more people will get a tax credit for buying a Model ≡ than for a Bolt.
My Chevy dealer says I can't even test drive a Bolt until Q2 2017 (I am in a CARB state). No idea when I would able to accept delivery.
Thank you kindly.
Figures lie when liars figure.
EaglesPDX, my dislike of the Bolt has nothing to do with it being an EV. It has to do with it being ugly. Now, not as ugly as the BMW i3, but not a great looking car. So now, where in that is there "loathing" of them as EVs?
Also, whoopy shit, Wired said it was sleek. What has that got to do with it being an EV, oh wait, it doesn't because they are commenting on what they think of its looks.
Also are serious about the back seat of the new Volt? Have you even sat in or tried to sit in the middle back seat? I did and it was pointless.
One thing we don't know is demand. And since we don't know that, we don't know price. With the Model 3 we know price, but don't know options. Without options, we know the base price but not the price of what we might want.
With the Bolt, if GM is successful, demand will be there. Some dealers are already anticipating markups beyond sticker price. That's certainly happened before in the industry and can be common for limited production models. But what's more typical for GM is that customers get vehicles for something closer to invoice price than sticker price. But invoice price no longer means what it once did, and even with hold backs it's hard to figure out the real dealer cost. The high end Volt has a sticker price of $38,940. The factory invoice is $38,154. Truecar says that the average price where I live was $35,474 and the Truecar price is $33,699. It might be that when the Bolt comes out, people will be able to get it for $5000 less, or $15,000 less with federal and state tax credits in some places. Or it might be more than MSRP.
I don't think this will affect the price of the Model 3 or the demand for the Model 3. It's not as if GM dealers will mark it down and there will be a glut of sales due to how much cheaper it is. Markdowns assume slow sales. If there's high demand, don't expect price breaks. And if people are looking to get it because it's cheaper than the Model 3, the demand will negate any chance of a low price, unless people simply aren't willing to pay what GM hopes to sell it for, but people are willing to buy it at a discount. In the latter case, I can't see GM sticking with it.
Good points Haggy.
@Topher "So not biased at all. The Bolt doesn't even allow an autopilot option, nor a AWD option, nor a long range option."
Bolt and Volt actually have all the main features of AutoPilot, dynamic cruise, auto braking, blind side indicators, lane keeping, cross track warning.
At 238 miles vs. T3's 215 to 250, the Bolt is competitive on the range.
But again, it's not so much competition for the Tesla, which is aimed at much higher price point, as much as being an EV entry car for ICE drivers.
EaglesPDX, the only thing that AP does is steer the car and keep it physically in the lane, which involves steering. All the other stuff is related to TACC.
So unless you have knowledge of GM having auto steer, for the Volt and Bolt, then those 2 cars don't have available what the M≡ will have in terms or AP.
Also, how does Tesla having the M≡ at $35,000 BEFORE tax incentives, vs the Bolt's $37,500 make Tesla going after a higher price point?
@EaglesPDX"But again, it's not so much competition for the Tesla, which is aimed at much higher price point, as much as being an EV entry car for ICE drivers."
Since we're all guessing here, my best guess is that I'll be able to purchase a base Model 3 for $35K if I want to since I have control over the order. I seriously doubt anyone will be able to purchase a Bolt for the stated price of $37K since the dealer has control and will not want to sell a base model. So which one is aimed at the higher price point again?
@jsimpsonalaska "My best guess is that I'll be able to purchase a base Model 3 for $35K".
You can count on it because that is what Tesla has committed to for the base. But few, if any will buy the base due to the 215 mile range. Musk noted that in saying the average will be $42K which is the adder for the battery "upgrade" to 250 in TS60.
On the Bolt, as you see now with Volts, dealers have base models for sale but everyone wants the loaded models as they will on the T3.
But a loaded Bolt is going to be $42K while a loaded T3 is going to be close to $60K. Two different markets really.
@EaglesPDX - "few, if any will buy the base due to the 215 mile range"
Really!? Again with the 215 mile range? That is the minimum range he said they were going to attain. No one knows what the final official range will be yet, please stop making assumptions based on something that no one knows anything about yet.
@dsvick "Again with the 215 mile range? That is the minimum range he said they were going to attain."
It is the starting range for sales similar to 218 miles for the "bargain" TS60. As with the TS60, the range upgrade will run $8,500 and get us to 250 miles. Bolt at 238 sits right in the middle of the high/low range T3.
I think everyone including me would appreciate it if you would stop speaking on topics that are conjecture as if they are fact. If you would qualify things with phrases like "I believe" or "I assume" or "I would expect" I think people would take you more seriously.
You do not know if "few, if any will buy the base because of the 215 miles" - you are ASSUMING. And as it has been pointed out to you many times - 215 is the minimum range - Elon Musk himself said he expects the range will actually be higher (see around minute 9:28 of the reveal video.) Why you continue to state that as fact when it has been pointed out many times that is not a fact is beyond me. Unless you have some other agenda.
In fact, if you have a login for model3tracker.info, you will see that of the 3500 or so people who have entered their expected options, a third of them have stated they will choose the base battery - whatever that range is. Granted it is a small sample of overall reservations, but it tells me that more than a "few, if any" will choose the base battery.
You also have no idea if the 42K number is for the "upgrade to 250 in TS60." No one knows what size the batteries will be or how much they will cost because it hasn't been announced yet. Anything regarding battery size on any forum is pure speculation. You cannot extrapolate that it will cost the same amount to upgrade batteries on the Model 3 as it will for the Model S because it has not been announced yet. Stating this as fact is disingenuous.
I also do not think you can compare Base/Loaded Bolts or Volts to what people will choose for the Model 3. Many people who own a Model S have spent more than they ever have just to get to a base Tesla. I would not be surprised if the same thing happens with the Model 3. People could likely choose the base Model 3 because it is a stretch for them but it gets them into a Tesla, which is what they really desire.
You also cannot compare a loaded Bolt to a loaded Model 3. (It is not T3 by the way. you are the only person on the internet I have seen call it that.) While we don't know what all the options of the Model 3 will be and how much they will cost, I would be shocked if they are even close to the same car. Apples and oranges. About the only thing I agree with you on is yes, indeed, a fully loaded 3 will be a different market than a fully loaded Bolt. It will be much more of a car. Because Tesla allows you to customize your order beyond anything GM will do for the Bolt, a more fair comparison will be how much car you can get with a 42K Model 3 vs. the same amount spent on a Bolt.
mp1156 +1,000,000 !!!!!!
mp1156 --- loud, vigorous clapping!!
@mp1156, Here is a handful of forum points.
@mp1156 "I think everyone would appreciate if you would stop speaking on topics that are conjecture."
That would mean you should stop discussing the T3 since it is "conjecture".
Tesla has stated 215 is the base. Since 218 is the base of the current "low budget" Tesla, the TS60, it seems a safe conjecture that Tesla will market the T3 base at 215.
That low range will help fulfill Tesla's conjecture that most will order the upgraded range model for $42K average price. Since Tesla has added incentive that cars ordered with more options will ship first, like the first 100,000 cars will be fully optioned. Extended range, air suspension, towing, cold weather, AWD, fast charge, Autopilot putting the T3 average in the $60K range for the first year of production.
Will the same be true of the Bolt? Will it mostly sell its premium model vs. the base, probably as people who buy EV's tend to be higher income.
Despite the fears of those out to "counteract the Bolt", the Bolt is not going to be competition for the T3 but aims at different market.
The Bolt looks like it will be a fine car. It's great that it has 200+ mile range; in 4 or 5 years, we can expect that you'll actually be able to drive cross-country in one. But that's the end of the comparison with a Model 3.
The Bolt is physically the size of a Toyota Yaris or Chevy Sonic (ICE) or BMW I3 (EV). It's a very small car, great for driving and parking in the city and on campus. It's also a very heavy car - it's nearly 1000 pounds heavier than the Yaris, Sonic, or i3. It's an expensive car for it's size - $20000 more than the comparably sized Yaris or Sonic, $2500 more than the Model 3, but $7000 cheaper than the BMW.
The Model 3, on the other hand, is estimated to be about the size of an Audi A4, BMW 320i, or Honda Accord V6, and a WAG might put it 300-500 pounds heavier. It's expected to be priced roughly the same as these comparably sized cars and be appointed similarly.
Beyond being the only 200 mile vehicles (in my price range) expected to be available next year, comparing the two is as ridiculous as comparing a Toyota Yaris to the BMW 320i.
@Eagles, I did not say "I think everyone would appreciate if you would stop speaking on topics that are conjecture."
I said "I think everyone would appreciate it if you would stop speaking on topics that are conjecture AS IF THEY ARE FACT."
I am sure you can appreciate the difference. Almost everything on the MODEL 3 is conjecture. My issue with your posts is you state your opinion as fact. Unless you work for Tesla and have some inside information, you are not being truthful in your posts because they are opinions stated as fact.
And it has been explained to you multiple times that the MINIMUM range on the Model 3 will be 215. If you do not believe me, I urge you to watch the reveal video again. Your refusal to acknowledge that is unbelievable at this point.
I will speculate that Tesla will make it a point to offer the same base battery range as the Bolt for close to the same price as the base battery Bolt. Regardless of what is the base battery of the Model S today. Remember, the S60 was just reintroduced, and that was specifically to lure Model 3 reservation holders. (which is working.) And Tesla has a history of introducing, discontinuing, and changing the price of their battery options. My S70 was done in a year.
@mp1156 " Remember, the S60 was just reintroduced, and that was specifically to lure Model 3 reservation holders. (which is working.) "
Yikes...more of the evil conjecture. Where has Tesla stated that it lost a lot of the T3 orders to TS60?
That's a big price jump a base $66K vs. a base $35K. While the T3 will likely be selling at $60K that will be for loaded vehicle that would be in $86K range for a TS60.
But the pricing does show why the Bolt is not really a competitor for the T3 and why the Teslerati out to "counteract the Bolt" can calm down
Maybe you missed the articles today. And based on the posts on the Model S forum of those who had a reservation but just ordered or had their Model S delivered - that is proof right there. I suspect those who were going to order an optioned out Model 3 jumped to an S - some with the 2 year lease, which is cheaper.
*SOME of those who were going to order an optioned out 3
@mp1156 " And based on the posts on the Model S forum of those who had a reservation but just ordered or had their Model S delivered - that is proof right there."
Not according to the article. It says nothing about people who have T3's on order canceling the order to buy a TS60D. It did say that "an analyst" (singular and not Tesla) felt that roughly 10,000 TS60 orders were from people who also ordered (but did not cancel) T3's.
At $66K base vs. $35K base, they are two very different market spots.
The fear of the Teslarati seems to be that the high end Bolt at $48K will cannibalize T3 sales but I think the fear is groundless as does Tesla.
@Eagles, I did not specify in my comments to you that they canceled their reservations. I just said that they were reservation holders that bought a S60.
I also did not say that the information came from Tesla. Just that it is in the article. and that based on posts I've seen on the Model S forum (and on the TMC forum, and on the Tesla pages on FB,as a matter of fact) that indeed some people who had/have model 3 reservations are buying the Model S. Based on their stories, some canceled their model 3 reservations and some did not.
yes they are different markets. I suspect some these buyers were able to get in at the top of their price range with the reintroduction of the S60. I would say the markets are similar only for those Model 3 reservation holders that plan on keeping the options and price low - closer to the Bolt. And only that they are in the same price point then - because the cars are completely different.
I do not fear cannibalization. I think the Bolt is a good thing as it furthers EM's mission, which I agree with.
My only issue with your posts from the start is that you state opinion as fact.
After selling about 11 years worth of Model S in only 4-1/2 years, I'm sure that Tesla Motors isn't too concerned about cannibalization either.
@mp1156 " I did not specify in my comments to you that they canceled their reservations."
Actually you did since that is the premise of the magazine article you referenced. But there is no evidence, even by the lone, anonymous "analyst" that a singe person canceled a $35K ($60K loaded) T3 order for a $66K ($93K loaded) TS60 order.
Bolt pricing is $38/$48K. It is certainly possible someone would purchase a Bolt vs. T3 but likely not much cross over. Teslarati should not feel so threatened especially since GM building a Bolt is part of Tesla's mission statement and there will be more EV's by other mfg's....none of which should be "counteracted".
"But few, if any will buy the base due to the 215 mile range. Musk noted that in saying the average will be $42K which is the adder for the battery "upgrade" to 250 in TS60."
You are contradicting yourself... again.
If the average price is $42k, then a lot of people will need to be buying the base, to offset the people buying fully loaded versions at 50-60k.
@topher "If the average price is $42k, then a lot of people will need to be buying the base, to offset the people buying fully loaded versions at 50-60k."
Depends on the time frame, the first 100,000 T3's are going to be fully loaded so the avg. price of the first 100,000 will be $60K region.
Scour the forums and pages, Eagles. Some people have canceled and some have not. They have posted about it.
It is also not "the premise of the article." The premise of the article is that they are model 3 reservation holders. Not that they canceled the reservation and bought a Model S. Just that their first contact with tesla was the reservation - and that they went on to buy cars available now.
"we think as many as a third of current Model S orders are coming from Model 3 reservation holders opting for the newly created two-year (and less expensive) lease."
No where there does it say they canceled.
EaglesPDX since you are sooo good at requiring people to back up what they say, where did you get this fact, "the first 100,000 T3's are going to be fully loaded so the avg. price of the first 100,000 will be $60K region".
Don't feed the troll. He makes no sense. He flogs a shitty crapbox. His Dolt has range envy and suffers an inferiority complex due to lack of charging.
Please buy a dolt and try and drive it cross country. I dare you.
@EaglesPDX - Depends on the time frame, the first 100,000 T3's are going to be fully loaded so the avg. price of the first 100,000 will be $60K region.
The same as the Dolt after the dealer markup!
USA Today -- Lyft Will Get BOLT First...
Saw that too Red... Let the GAMES begin! My stealership suggested I put down a deposit if I was interested - but couldn't give me pricing or tell me when it would be available. A fool and his money I'm not....
I don't know where people get the idea that not a lot of people will want 215 miles. Even if Tesla doesn't add a mile to that, I've had few trips where more range than that would have made much difference, and as a second car, I can't see justifying more range than that unless it's needed for performance reasons. If the 60 had been upgradeable when I got my model S, I likely would have bought it, especially if supercharging had been included. I don't regret having an 85 by any means. But if I had a new 60, I wouldn't yet have had an occasion when an upgrade would have made a difference.
@Haggy "I don't know where people get the idea that not a lot of people will want 215 miles."
You are one source of the idea. You would not buy a car limited to 215 range.
@Haggy "If the 60 had been upgradeable when I got my model S, I likely would have bought it."
I would have included a link, but the palindrome defender still doesn't much like me to do that and stuff.
@Eagles "You are one source of the idea. You would not buy a car limited to 215 range."
I believe the point was that if the 60 had a range of 215 that could be upgraded later then Haggy would have bought the 60 with a range of 215, knowing that it could be upgraded later if needed.
@jordanrichard " the only thing that AP does is steer the car and keep it physically in the lane, which involves steering."
That's called lane keeping, Bolt and Volt both have it.
Granted it's a small sampling, but IIRC, over a third of the people using the configurator have said they wouldn't be getting the upgraded battery.
@Eagles - you full well know there is a difference between lane keeping and AP. Lane keeping the Bolt and Volt have is for when you drift out of your lane, it will bring you back. AP will actually go around all the curves etc WITHOUT you having to do anything - there is a big difference (I am sure though in your oversimplification of everything Tesla, you don't see the difference.) For those of us that actually OWN the car, we full well know the difference and would not want anything BUT the AP (Lane assist, nice feature, but does not help ease drive in congestion commute).