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Battery issue / range

Battery issue / range

I have a Model S 60 I purchased 2 months ago however the Battery does not last more than 70% of the claimed rated range. I have talked to technical support and they said this is normal. How can this be? I can't even drive to my warehouse and back without the risk of getting stuck! I need your help please in finding a resolution.

jordanrichard | April 14, 2015

So you have a 2 month old car, and you are getting only 70% of what "claimed rated miles". Are you talking about the Rated Miles on the speedometer, or 70% of the max range Tesla said a S60 should get?

Tâm | April 14, 2015

"claimed rated range" is only good in the laboratory.

Once it gets out to the real world then what you experience is of course "normal!"

TeoTeslaFan | April 14, 2015

Post a screenshot of 100% charge rated range.

Sam55 | April 14, 2015

I'm getting only 70% of the rated miles on the speedometer. This can't be normal

TeoTeslaFan | April 14, 2015

Show us a photo.

Sam55 | April 14, 2015

I will do a 100% charge tonight and upload photo in the morning

TeoTeslaFan | April 14, 2015

OK, sounds good.

sorka95032 | April 14, 2015

A photo won't be enough information but it will help.

Did it get worse?
What does your rated miles show on a full charge?

Are you saying your only getting 70 of the rated range or the rated range only shows 70% of 208? i.e. 146 miles? What do you see at an 80% charge? Should be about 166.

What is your wh / mile on a typical charge?

What kind of driving do you do? Freeway? Stop and go city?

Are you running heat and AC? Do you stay in Range Mode?

Sam55 | April 14, 2015

Has not gotten worse. On 100% full c barge my rated range is 208. I am basically only able to drive 148 miles before being dead. At the daily max charge I'm showing on screen 185 miles rated range. What is Wh/mile? I normally to about 50% freeway and 50% city stop and go. Most of my freeway driving dose tend to me in traffic. I do run Ac at fan sped 3. The car is set to range mode.

Thank you for all your help!

EVino | April 14, 2015

@sraof, no disrespect but it would really help if you immersed yourself in the theory behind electric vehicles and energy usage. There's ideal range, rated range, and your real-usage range. Learn the differences. Wh/mile is a measure of your efficiency. It means how much energy you are expending per mile. The car will show you your average Wh/m calculated over 30 miles, 15 miles, 5 miles, and instantaneous. Ideal is about 270 Wh/m. I believe the ideal conditions are 55 mph, flat road, no wind. Rated is 300 Wh/m, about 65 mph, flat road, no wind. How do you measure against those reference numbers? Are you averaging above? Stop and go traffic isn't bad. It's the high speed that will reduce range, because most resistance at high speed is the energy required to push air. Air resistance is proportional to cube of speed. Having a heavy foot is also detrimental. Watch your acceleration. What are your conditions? Range mode is just a label meaning if you want to go on an extended trip it will disable use of HVAC to reduce non-essential load. Read up on the FAQ. Congratulations and good luck.

Anthony J. Parisio | April 15, 2015

EVino is right. Speed make a big difference. This is true for all cars. When asked how far dose my 85 go I ask at what speed. Often I say at 45 almost 350 miles, at 55 265 miles, at 65 220 miles and at 75 under 200 miles. This is not a scientifically tested scale but it is close enough to describe my experiences. Air is really hard to cut through at higher speeds.

Mathew98 | April 15, 2015

@Sam55 - It sounds like you're charging to 90% daily which would give you a range of 185 miles. If you have stop and go traffic, little bit of spirited driving, or go over the speed limit, the car will consume more energy.

If you're getting 148 actual miles instead of rate range of 185 then you get 80% efficiency. So that's about 360 Wh/m usage.

Let's try a couple of things to assess your range issue (at least for a couple of days).
- change your charging scale to max charge (100%) instead of 90%
- schedule the charge to end about half an hour before the commute
- set your cruise control to 65 MPH in the slow lane
- change the option to "Range" mode and "Energy Saving" mode

Let's see if the above steps help satisfy your daily commute. You can dial back daily charging limit back to 90% if the other steps work.

Rocky_H | April 15, 2015

@Sam55, EVino forgot to mention it, but when he talked about the 30, 15, and 5 mile energy usage, to get to see that, select the "Energy" tab at the top of your touch screen. That will show something else that EVino and Matthew98 were talking about. That energy app, in addition to showing what your energy consumption rate is, will also show you a projected actual miles left based on that consumption rate of your actual driving. That should make a lot more sense about why your actual miles are coming up shorter than rated miles if you are driving at a higher consumption rate.

This really is the same as the equivalent situation in a gas car. The rated miles per gallon from the EPA window sticker will yield a certain amount of miles in a tank. If someone's usual driving is at a worse miles per gallon rate, they are not going to get that number of miles of driving from the tank of gas.

AmpedRealtor | April 15, 2015

@ Sam55,

What the speedo shows you is an estimate that reflects the EPA range. However, your actual driving style will dictate your actual range as in any other car. If you are driving over the speed limit, mashing the pedal, or are driving in temperature extremes, your actual range will be lower than the EPA estimate.

Captain_Zap | April 15, 2015

Do you drive on cold wet roads?

You might note what it displays in the "Ideal Range" setting when you are fully charged.

Captain_Zap | April 15, 2015

Also, what is your average Wh/mi?

Captain_Zap | April 15, 2015

I keep my Wh/mi on my driver's display. Use the scroll wheel to select it.

TeoTeslaFan | April 15, 2015

Sam55,

Where is the picture?

I have no idea why people keep talking about unrelated things. The issue here is battery degradation. The criteria is rated range at 100% charge. If it shows 208 you have no degradation. If it shows let's say 201, then that is 201*100/208= 96.63% of the capacity.

You shouldn't have started this topic without a picture. Where is the picture?

Captain_Zap | April 15, 2015

@TeoTeslaFan

That is not true. There can be a variety of other simple things going on.

Mathew98 | April 15, 2015

@Teo - You really need to learn to read and read carefully. @Sam55 stated his 100% charge gives him 208 miles.

What degradation are you talking about? Do you have any clues what the question was?

He is asking why he could only muster 70% or 148 of the 208 miles range.

We know he starts off the day at 185 or 90% range. Then we need to figure out what he is doing to knock another 20% or 37 miles off 185 rated range.

That is 20% inefficiency. Not battery degradation for a two months old S60.

jordanrichard | April 15, 2015

No the issue here is not battery degradation, he is a new owner and hasn't learned how to read all the data points.

Sam55. Simply drive with the Energy App open. You will see why in the driving you are doing, you are getting only 70% of what you expected. On the energy app, if your avg energy usage is kept at or below 295, you will get the "Rated Miles" you see below the speedometer. If your usage is higher than 295 as I suspect it is, you will get less. Those Rated Miles are based on a formual devised by the EPA, just like the fuel economy numbers for an ICE.

Though now that I think more about it, that 295 I quoted maybe just for the 85 battery. Someone with a 60 would have to verify it.

TeoTeslaFan | April 15, 2015

Sam55,
Do you see what happens when you don't add a picture. People can't even agree what you are talking about.

Mathew98,
The OP is talking about battery degradation and reduced 100% rated range. He might be reading the number incorrectly or making up things which is why I'm asking for a picture.

Mathew98 | April 15, 2015

Like Jordan said, OP is a new owner. He is not making things up so the rest of us are trying to shine light to his situation. A picture of his range is not needed.

Read my post again and it'll show some clarity.

AmpedRealtor | April 15, 2015

We don't need a photo, OP's question seems pretty clear.

TeoTeslaFan | April 15, 2015

OK, I looked again and it appears I was wrong. So the situation is this:

1. At 100% charge the OP gets 206 miles rated range. He says 208 but I think he hasn't charged to 100% for long time and it might be 206 now which is perfectly normal.
2. On his daily charge he gets 185 miles rated range. 90% of 206 is 185.
3. However the OP can only drive 148 miles.
4. He is complaining about the discrepancy between the 185 miles rated range at 90% and the 148 miles he can actually drive.

Sam55,
The most important factors that affect range are:
1. speed
2. elevation
3. air conditioning

When these change, your range changes. Speed is very important. If you are driving at 80 mph, dropping to 75 will make a big difference in range.

1. Open this page and scroll down until you see the car: http://my.teslamotors.com/goelectric#range
2. Change the button on the right to "rear wheel drive"
3. Play with speed and air conditioning to see how it affects range

Mathew98,
I take that back. You were right.

tcandmm | April 15, 2015

Absolutely correct on the driving style and traffic/road condition, my S60 can go from using 280 wh/m (going slow and non-aggressive driving) to 350 wh/m when driving fast at highway speed for long distance without any regen braking. It's not much different than ICE gasoline cars when you floor the accerlerator often you won't get the EPA mileage as advertised.

tes-s | April 15, 2015

Darn, shoulda bought a 85!

sorka95032 | April 15, 2015

Still no photo. Oh well.

Sam, assuming that you're not driving 80 mph everywhere, one thing you should consider checking is your wheel alignment.

Innkeep | April 15, 2015

Also check tire pressure. Should be 45 psi all around

SCCRENDO | April 15, 2015

It's pretty clear what is happening. Stop tormenting OP particularly Teo with all his pictures he wants. The new 60 is obviously charging ok. OP just needs to looks at his trip meter and see what his kW/m is. If it is around 360 it will explain why he is using more than his rated miles. If he wants to get his rated miles, he needs to get his usage down to 280 wH/m, we need to move on to lesson 2 and address all the factors that reduce range such as speed, elevation, wind, poor tire inflation, cold temps etc. As an oldtimer if I have more range than I need I just drive which is most of the time. If I have to conserve range I slow down.

Rocky_H | April 15, 2015

@Sam55, I just remembered. You asked what Wh/mile is, and I don't think anyone actually spelled that out or explained it. That means Watt-Hours per mile.

In the U.S. we use miles per gallon to describe fuel consumption, so higher number is better. In Europe, they use an upside down version of that: liters per kilometer, which is how much fuel you are consuming per kilometer. So with that, lower number is better.

Watt hours is an amount of energy, so Watt hours per mile is like the European thing, where lower number is more efficient.

Sudre_ | April 15, 2015

Sam, I own a 60 myself (over two years now). You will not get 208 miles per charge... or at least rarely. I am not sure how you have your speedo display laid out but if you have the 'miles traveled / kWh / Watt mile' in the upper right it will be easy to explain. That watt per mile is the important one.

If you started your charge at 208 rated miles you have about 57,000 watts to use. From here it is simple math.

If you are traveling around 75 mph without A/C and on fairly level ground and have 19" tires you are going to be burning off about 340 watts per mile on average. That gives you a range of 167 miles. If you are accelerating hard and using regen a lot your watts per mile will go up. Also if it is cold your watts per mile will go up. Windows down also raises the watt mile because it's like dragging a parachute behind you.

If you are only getting 145 miles per full charge then you are running about 390 watts per mile. If that is true and you are not stomping on the accelerator a lot and it is not cold out there may be an issue.

If Tesla is telling you it's normal after looking at the logs then you are probably pushing the car hard and traveling well into 80 mph.

Sam55 | April 15, 2015

First off thank you everyone for all your posts in an attempt to help address this issue for me. Below please find the images of my range this am on a full charge as well as the images of my actual miles and energy app image. The driving today was majority in traffic on my way to work and open 70mph freeway driving back.

http://tinypic.com/r/33elbfr/8

http://tinypic.com/r/352rblz/8

http://tinypic.com/r/dpagpw/8

Tâm | April 15, 2015

Those picture links sometimes work other times don't.

Let me attempt to embed those pictures:

First picture: a full charge resulted in 208 rated miles:

Second one with Average Energy consumption of 341 to 343 Wh/mile:

Third picture predicts the range to be 141 miles if you keep on driving like this:

Can't you just drive the way they do in the laboratory? Of course in there, the car doesn't actually move because it's on a treadmill going nowhere fast :)

sorka95032 | April 15, 2015

At the efficiency you show in the photo of about 342 wh / mile, you'd get 166 miles on full charge or 133 miles on an 80% charge. In order to get the rated mileage, you'd need to get 274 Wh / mile average.

NKYTA | April 15, 2015

My lifetime Wh/m over 2.5 years is just slightly higher (345) than what you are showing here.

Best advice, slow down!

I have a P85. I've done full range charges as needed, and I've also milked it to reduce charging time by showing up with a low state of charge so my A battery gets the most efficient charge.

Time to cue SamO, who has a 60 like you, and has done some amazing trips. SamO?

TeoTeslaFan | April 16, 2015

Sam55,

EPA stands for Environmental Protection Agency. They decide how the range test should be performed and how the scoring is done. Tesla didn't decide on the 208 number, EPA did. This is EPA website: http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/Find.do?action=sbs&id=36017

You see the S60 on that page. There is a small car icon. Under it, it says 208 miles. That's where the 208 comes from. In the past EPA score was more optimistic. If their old test was used your car would have scored 240 EPA rating. 208 is their corrected test but it still needs 14% reduction to be more accurate.

It is a good thing you are not in Europe because in Europe they have a rated range called NEDC and in that test your car scored 240. When Tesla was selling the S60 in Europe they had to advertise 240 miles. You can't blame Tesla for this lousy test either.

If you go to the order page (aka design studio) and change country to Great Britain you see the even more optimistic and inaccurate NEDC ratings. For S85, instead 265 EPA. It says "310 NEDC."

I recommend that you contact EPA and tell them to reduce their score by 14%. Then your car would display a more accurate rated range of 179 miles at 100% and 161 at 90%. S85 would display 228 EPA instead 265 which would be more accurate. I'm sure Tesla could do a software update if EPA reduced their scores.

mjt.private | April 16, 2015

There used to be an option in the "Settings" to switch the display to use the more realistic mileage estimate. I presume it is still there, although I now use the % remaining option.

This doesn't help the OP's range, but it does reduce the annoyance of being faced with an insulting estimate every time you get in the car.

J.T. | April 16, 2015

@mjt but it does reduce the annoyance of being faced with an insulting estimate every time you get in the car.

A piece of eklectrical tape over the display also works quite well. :-)

Mathew98 | April 16, 2015

@sorka95032 - On the S60 you would get the rated range around 292 Wh/m.

So after @Sam55 drove 33.6 miles, he still could go another 141 miles until the estimate hits zero. So a projected 175 miles range at 343 Wh/m usage.

Would that be enough for @Sam55's daily driving needs without changing any of his habits?

Just for a point of reference, I drove 190 miles at an average speed of 62 mph and still had 27 miles remaining in my S60. So adjust your speed accordingly will give you a little more leeway...

proven | April 16, 2015

My advice is to slow down. We drive a bit slower in our Model S and our lifetime Wh/m has dropped to 314. In the spring weather we are averaging 290. I expect it to go back up to 320ish in the summer with the A/C.

If you do the math, it's amazing how little time you actually gain by driving 75 instead of 65 on short-ish trips.

sorka95032 | April 16, 2015

@ Mathew98, at 292, you'd only get 195.2 miles out of 57 kWh.

Mathew98 | April 16, 2015

Well, I drove 190 miles with 27 miles left with that usage.

That's my story and I'm sticking to it!

BTW, the S60 is more efficient than S85 or P85. The S85 needs to average 278 Wh/m to get rated range.

SCCRENDO | April 16, 2015

@OP. On what you have shown your battery is just fine. I have been doing this now for 2 years and over 57000 miles. A 60 is not enough for me because I do a minimum of 100 miles a day and often up to 200 mile days. A home charger takes care of most of my needs. I have a lifetime average of 340 wH/m so I drive unhindered. If you do my kind of miles an 85 would have been better but I still could probably have managed with a 60 by having occasional backup charging options or driving slower at times. Perhaps dual chargers would have given me an option of charging quicker. Seems to me that you are not a heavy mileage user so the 60 would probably get you through your day without charging above 90%. I try not to go 100% too often but use it when needed. Long distance travel puts you at a slight disadvantage. If you live in a supercharger dense area like Southern California it's a non-issue. Otherwise you may have to slow down a little on long trips. But this will improve as superchargers continue to get built out. Realistically long distance travel is less than 5% of my miles so making accommodations to the smaller battery is unlikely to be that often.

eye.surgeon | April 16, 2015

Even 10 minutes educating yourself online would have answered your question. Seems like a big purchase to make without doing your homework. 85 would have been a better choice for you or anyone that can't get buy with less than 200 miles a day of real range. Which isn't that many people.

G.Hawkinz | April 16, 2015

Sam, As a 60 owner I feel your pain. You've unfortunately just learned the "hard way" about driving electric cars with respects to efficiency. The worst part about this, which is something NOBODY has YET to say to you, is that the Tesla representatives should have explained real-world expectations of range vs just discussing the beneficial areas of going electric. Yes, as a consumer, you need to do your due diligence, but so should the seller. #Integrity

Sam55 | April 16, 2015

I agree @g.hawkinz

Sam55 | April 16, 2015

I tried driving all day today going max of 65 using Cruise control and could not even come close to getting under 300wh/m

TeoTeslaFan | April 16, 2015

Sam55,

Did you measure tire pressure? What numbers do you get?

Here is a device you can buy on amazon for $9
http://www.amazon.com/dp/B0037V0EW8/

Brian H | April 17, 2015

Rocky_H;
It's liters per 100km.

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