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Unfortunately getting rid of Tesla. Battery degradation problems.

Unfortunately getting rid of Tesla. Battery degradation problems.

I’m close to trading my Tesla model S for a gas vehicle. It is a 2013 with 130,000 miles. My HW battery broke down about 3months ago and they refurbished the battery. However, the daily range dropped from 225 to 215 which Tesla said is within their acceptable range for remanufactured batteries.

It also loses 10 miles per day just sitting in the garage. I brought this energy loss up to Tesla, and they texted me “ The result is an incorrect reduction in the displayed range estimate. This does not affect the true range of the vehicle....we recognize the inconvenience with this incorrect range estimate.” So I asked them next time I park my car at the airport for 5 days and the range says 165, is the range 165 or 215? They said anywhere in between. Parking your car at the airport is a common everyday scenario.

The problem is I routinely drive 150-180 miles per day. With winter coming up and the expected 15% drop in range during cold weather and since they said I can’t trust the “incorrect range estimate”, I can’t drive this car anymore since I’m constantly having to worry about running out of power.

Th case is still open and they are investigating for me. That being said, I’ve been working with them for a month now and they have yet to even physically examine the car.

tes-s | September 7, 2018

What service center? The lowest rated mileage anyone has reported with a 2013 is 238 miles.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/t024bMoRiDPIDialGnuKPsg/edit#gid=...

From your post, it is clear you are doing the right thing for you - trading for a gas vehicle.

Chunky Jr. | September 7, 2018

Do you have energy saving turned on?

TeslaTap.com | September 7, 2018

I'm not sure there is anything to look at physically on your car. I suppose they could jack the car up and look at the battery, but it wouldn't have anything to do with the batteries capacity or range. The logs tell it all as far as battery health and that can be done entirely remotely.

If you turn on energy savings mode and turn off remote access, I expect the vampire drain will be down to about 2-3 miles a day.

Also unless the old and new battery range measurement was done the same way (run down to < 20% and charge up to 100% - measure at 100%), the calibration error on either pack can easily be 10-20 miles. Might be worth at least on your new pack to do this test and see if it goes up from 215. Still, you might not know what the level of your old pack was before the failure - it might have been below 225.

I can't imagine ever going back to an ICE car, they feel and operate like 40 year old crap mobiles, but perhaps you feel differently with ICE. Good luck whatever you elect to do.

Bighorn | September 7, 2018

Time for a new Tesla unless you were dropped at some point or don’t have the cash.

auschang | September 8, 2018

Yes, I already recalibrated( drive it to 18 miles left)and it still has the same problem. The issue is that if I could reliably know my range than I can probably figure out a way to not run out of power. However the technician tells me that even with the same daily driving habits and same air temp, my daily estimated range can be 20-30 miles off.

Since the battery is already about 15% degraded and has little resale value, I can probably just max charge it 2-3 days a week when needed and this should get me by for the next couple of years.

2015P90DI | September 9, 2018

Ahh, the good ol' "it's within acceptable range" answer!!! Don't ya just love that one!! LOL. I went through hell and back with them on my 2013 too. Was only getting about 160 miles out of an 85 kWh battery with less than 20,000 miles on the car and it too was in "acceptable range". Had to get rid of it. I paid significantly more for the 85 battery because I needed the extra range. Didn't expect it to get 265 forever and I only needed it to go 200 miles. No too much to ask for a 2 year old car with less than 20,000 miles on it, right? Well, unfortunately, their "acceptable range" wasn't acceptable to me as the car no longer was able to travel an acceptable distance to me, so had to get rid of it.

Nice to see that other's are at least offering a 70% guarantee on their batteries after 8 years / 100,000 miles. Would have been able to get mine replaced being that it was well under 70%.

I love that "competition" is coming as it's going to hugely benefit the consumer. Tesla will no longer be the only game in town and will have to step up in certain areas where in the past, we had no choice and they knew it. Next year, there will be multiple choices available.

carlk | September 9, 2018

You're going to get a gas car instead any of new Tesla cars that easily get you 300+ miles range? And you are one of the early adapters who had your Tesla in 2013? Huh?

SamO | September 9, 2018

Weren't you the one that drove 90mph and wondered why you weren't getting range?

Tropopause | September 9, 2018

SamO- Good memory!

Mathew98 | September 9, 2018

Why does @tes-s have the best answer?

bp | September 11, 2018

There are a couple of factors here to look at.

We had a 2012 S P85 (traded in with almost 100K miles in June) and have a 2017 S 100D and 2018 X 100D, so we have extended experience with charging levels on multiple Tesla vehicles.

It's normal for the charge to drop slowly while plugged in - that's actually a good thing, to allow the batteries to slowly drain a little, and then recharge. This is normal, and doesn't indicate any permanent loss of range or capacity. We've seen that with all 3 of our vehicles. If you want to get back to the normal charge level, all you need to do is unplug/replug the charging cable, and it will go back to the desired charging level (which we usually have at 90%).

Some range loss is normal over time, and is usually in the range of 3-5% for most vehicles (before they are sold or traded-in). This is much better than anyone likely expected when the Model S first went into production (back then Nissan was losing more than 50% of charge on their Leafs over a year or two). It will be interesting to see how the other manufacturers do with long range charge retention, since they'll be using their first generation battery pack designs, compared to Tesla's experience with the Roadster 1.0 and several generations of S/3/X battery packs.

We just came back from a 12 day road trip - the first time we've parked our 2018 X 100D at an airport garage for an extended period. With our S P85, we've seen losses on the order of 3-7 miles per day - so we charged our X to 100% before leaving for the airport - and were very pleasantly surprised to see the X only lose about 1 mile of range per day while parked at the garage (with range mode ON, overheat protection off, pre-conditioning off, climate off, and parked in a covered, interior parking spot).

The rated range is only a prediction of range under well defined conditions - with range likely to be less under many normal driving situations - high/low temperatures, precipitation, winds, rain/snow, high speeds, heavy traffic, elevation changes, towing, … But over the life of a battery pack, the range loss should usually no more than 3-5%, compared to a new battery pack.

auschang | September 11, 2018

To answer the question about why I would not just buy another one. Because I can’t keep spending $90k on a car every 3 years. Just like the other person, alot of us are losing 3-5% per YEAR of range but it’s not being reported. At this rate, hopefully I will drop below the 70% range soon and they might honor their warranty.

Anthony J. Parisio | September 12, 2018

auschang,
The new cars have better battery chem. A Model 3 is half the price of a Model S. It has the newest best battery Tech. Why go back to "rubbing sticks together when you have a lighter available"?

NOLEK SUM | September 14, 2018

@bp

“Some range loss is normal over time, and is usually in the range of 3-5%”

Exactly. My 5 year old S85/65000 miles still charges to 255 miles, a loss of just over 3% TOTAL. I have followed the recommended charging protocol religiously.

NOLEK SUM | September 14, 2018

I also have done at least a week 30 200 mile road trips a year, running capacity down to 20 miles (6000 ft climb) each time. Maybe that is good for battery life. It sure hasn’t hurt.

rxlawdude | September 14, 2018

"alot of us are losing 3-5% per YEAR of range but it’s not being reported."

Define "a lot." Seems exquisitely unusual.

TeslaTap.com | September 14, 2018

Sounds like someone defines one as "a lot" for sensationalism?

NKYTA | September 14, 2018

Swat the Gadfly.

ModelSv2 | September 14, 2018

This idea that Tesla has 6 gen amazing batteries and others have 1 gen is not realistic.

By that logic ford had the best cars in the world and it took general motors forever to catch up. Because one company started decades before the other.

In reality the company that starts later benefits of they're smart from the earlier companies technology.

Perhaps you've all not heard, the original uk inventor of lithium batteries has invented a new lithium sodium battery that charges in 2-5 minutes for a 100kwh pack.

It's also safer than existing ones and doesnt lose capacity as much. Early adopters are always penalized. iPhone 1 was total garbage yet iPhone 3 and galaxy 1 which both released years later 2011 were way better.

By the reasoning I read above we should all have kodak ot Polaroid cameras because .....

Musk knows he can get crushed by the big boys if and when they get serious about battery only. His main people are from Ford and other car companies.

This is the guy who bought into Tesla, ousted the founders and like his prior ventures (PayPal, zip2, kazaa/bittorrent) . No one would be surprised if he sold out to a large auto firm or a large tech firm (Google, apple)

It stands to reason therefore that whatever cars come out in 2019 the batteries can be equal to or better than Tesla in terms of performance. So far GM only has 60 kwph, but hyundia ie promising a 90kwph pack for its SUV . The info is all out there on EV sites and zines,

A car in 2018, Tesla then GMC then leaf only avail options . 2020-2030? That may radically look different

Bighorn | September 14, 2018

That’s deep af.

NKYTA | September 14, 2018

If your fantasy land includes the push for sustainable transportation, I’m all for it.

Good luck with the rest.

tes-s | September 15, 2018

"I can’t keep spending $90k on a car every 3 years."
Is it a 2013 or a 2015?
Why are you the only one with a 2013 that is getting less than 238 miles?

"Was only getting about 160 miles out of an 85 kWh battery with less than 20,000 miles on the car and it too was in 'acceptable range' "
You are confused about range and battery degradation.

Mathew98 | September 15, 2018

If one likes to drive 90 MPH, then all the rest of the replies are moot. No amount of balancing would help a led foot...

jjgunn | September 15, 2018

Enjoy those manufactured gas prices!

bp | September 16, 2018

Based on several online reports of average range loss after 150K-200K miles of around 10%, losing 3-5% of range per year seems high, especially for a 2013 with only 130K miles (averaging 25K miles per year), though losing 2% year would be consistent with what other owners have reported.

For our 2012 S P85, it seemed to stabilize around 5% range loss when we traded it in with almost 100K miles.

If a car is seeing 5% range loss per year, with about 25K miles, it's possible there is an issue with that specific battery pack, or with the charging strategy (such as regularly charging above 90% or allowing charge to drop below 10% frequently, or doing mostly fast charging vs. charging at 80A or lower).

Mathew98 | September 16, 2018

I don't think @OP was referring to RR lost. He was referring to actual range from driving at 90 MPH. Who wants to bet he aunches and cuts lanes often?

auschang | September 18, 2018

Y’all forget that I didn’t have any of these problems until my high voltage battery failed, and they remanufactured it. That is when I lost all the range. It was he Tesla service center that told 15% loss is within acceptable limits.

Cnightengale | September 28, 2018

I have a 2013 MS-P85+, with 120,000 miles. I am now only getting a daily commute milage of 214....I will just buy a new battary when it dies.....can't go back to GAS

Teslagator | September 28, 2018

2013 S85 w 130K miles...I charge and supercharge it however I want, have never used limited range mode for charging and always fill to max if I can and I also drive 80mph+ most of the time and mine still charges to 239 to 242 rated range as it has for the past 3 years after dropping down to that and then plateauing there ever since.

DTsea | September 28, 2018

auschang,

btw 2013 is 5 years ago, almost 6 now.... not 3.

just sayin'..... 2016 called and said you forgot to buy a new car after 3 years.

DTsea | September 28, 2018

auschang,

btw 2013 is 5 years ago, almost 6 now.... not 3.

just sayin'..... 2016 called and said you forgot to buy a new car after 3 years.

DTsea | September 28, 2018

auschang,

btw 2013 is 5 years ago, almost 6 now.... not 3.

just sayin'..... 2016 called and said you forgot to buy a new car after 3 years.

DTsea | September 28, 2018

sorry about the triple.post. phone.

sigh.

flagshipdynamics | September 28, 2018

'17 S60(w 75kwh battery total) - I've got the software limited battery in the 2017 S60. 33k miles.

My range has increased from 208 in March '17 to 210 a few days ago. It will say 205 maybe tomorrow. I wish there were a real way to measure the battery, but it appears that the software limited batteries don't degrade at all. Or maybe I just won't see it until it has degraded from 100% to 79% and I only lose 2 miles of range.

That software limited battery was the best deal in the world!

ST70 | September 28, 2018

auschang,

btw 2013 is 5 years ago, almost 6 now.... not 3.

just sayin'..... 2016 called and said you forgot to buy a new car after 3 years.

marcustcohn | September 29, 2018

Is there a battery test that is more definitive than the range estimate ? I would think that a service center would have some instrument that can really assess battery health and status vs. relying on the range projection. If the battery shows up to spec then the problem is not the battery but the range projection.

TeslaTap.com | September 29, 2018

@marcustcohn - Battery range other than at 100% or 0% can only be an estimate. You can't measure the chemical state in each of 7,000 batteries, so only when it is fully charged or discharged can you get the baseline. To avoid surprises, the range estimate is designed to goes down over time (rather than risking going up over time and making an owner thinks there is more capacity/range than there really is).

Even when the range calculation has drifted lower -the battery capacity has not diminished. There is no secret battery range value that Tesla can look at. They have to drain the battery and charge it up to 100% (which is not great for battery longevity). So most owners understand the limitations and don't worry about it.

Bill Tower | June 6, 2019

Purchased my model 3 April 20, 2019. It was built 12/2018. Had 50 miles. New. I charged it to 100 soc and it only shows 296 miles did this many times and it never go any better, in fact now going down. You would think a new car would charge to at lest in the 300 range. I reported the problem to the service center and received a message that the battery was effected by a software update and should charge to 90% for 4 weeks so it can resets its self. Its been 3 weeks and the best 100% is 294.

Bill Tower | June 6, 2019

Purchased my model 3 April 20, 2019. It was built 12/2018. Had 50 miles. New. I charged it to 100 soc and it only shows 296 miles did this many times and it never go any better, in fact now going down. You would think a new car would charge to at lest in the 300 range. I reported the problem to the service center and received a message that the battery was effected by a software update and should charge to 90% for 4 weeks so it can resets its self. Its been 3 weeks and the best 100% is 294.

Bill Tower | June 6, 2019

Purchased my model 3 April 20, 2019. It was built 12/2018. Had 50 miles. New. I charged it to 100 soc and it only shows 296 miles did this many times and it never go any better, in fact now going down. You would think a new car would charge to at lest in the 300 range. I reported the problem to the service center and received a message that the battery was effected by a software update and should charge to 90% for 4 weeks so it can resets its self. Its been 3 weeks and the best 100% is 294.

Silver2K | June 6, 2019

Bill, the service center said to charge to 90% for 4 weeks so it can reset itself. why would you charge to 100% after 3 weeks?

They monitor the pack as you follow their instruction.

Tldickerson | June 6, 2019

Probably the same reason he posted it 3 times. Just to make sure.

RedJ | June 6, 2019

In 2016 when I bought my model S I “lost” 5 miles in the first 2 weeks and was quite worried as I projected out why my loss would be in a year. In then stabilized and remained essentially unchanged for a year. Now, after 2.5 years and 50k miles I’ve lost 11 miles or about 4% of rated range.

The bottom line is the first month is no indicator of your long term battery health. Also, I never did see the full 259 rated miles on my car but that really doesn’t affect much since the rated miles display is just an estimate.

So, relax and enjoy your awesome car .

(And congrats!)

carlk | June 7, 2019
carlk | June 7, 2019

No idea why was that becoming clickable.

Bighorn | June 7, 2019

@ makes it an email link