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Trump blocks EV tax credit extension

Trump blocks EV tax credit extension

According to this article, pressure from the White House has hurt the chances of an EV tax credit extension plan.
https://finance.yahoo.com/news/trump-helped-nix-electric-car-204241413.html

jordanrichard | December 17, 2019

Is is really going to make a difference for Tesla? I mean, it’s down to what, $1875? When you are buying a $40,000 car, $1875 is less than the sales tax. Also, now everyone actually gets the whole credit anyways. I think it would look great if despite there being no tax credit for Teslas, that the sales continue to climb. That would show that sales of Teslas isn’t dependent on federal subsidies.

When I got my car, the credit was still $7500, but I didn’t factor that in.

bp | December 17, 2019

Tesla can be competitive without the US federal tax credit, because they appear to have a several year advantage on battery and motor technology.

What may work better for Tesla is the complete elimination of the tax credit, since the other manufacturers have yet to match the range of a 2012 Model S, and they will find it difficult to match Tesla on price without losing money on every sale.

Plus, with Tesla and GM about to lose access to the tax credit, the program will be rewarding the late comers who will be manufacturing their EVs outside of the US.

While we wouldn't turn down another $7500 or $7000 tax credit on our next Tesla purchase, unless the program is fixed to provide the credit for EV purchases from any manufacturer, it may be time to end the program.

trixiew | December 17, 2019

So we spend roughly 20 Billion a year subsidizing fossil fuels? That feels right to ditch support for electric vehicles. Save’s the tax payers a ton.

SO | December 17, 2019

It would be best if they just canceled the credit for everyone.

No surprise Trump didn’t want it. His voters blame EVs for their job loss. And rather than retrain, they want to hold on to the past no matter what.

Darthamerica | December 17, 2019

What's the justification for an EV tax credit? Explain that, I'm open.

PBEndo | December 17, 2019

EV's are clearly the future of the auto industry. Considering Trump's stance on trade with China, I would think he would consider a tax credit for EV's made in the USA in order to help keep the jobs here.

Daisy the Road ... | December 17, 2019

Long term genefitbto th e country.

Bighorn | December 17, 2019

@jordan
It was a $7000 extension for another 400k cars, so it was significant.

tes-s | December 17, 2019

"So we spend roughly 20 Billion a year subsidizing fossil fuels?"

I'm hoping Trump does not agree to continue that either. I'm willing to send email to the White House, my senators, and my representative. What fossil fuel provision should I ask them to nix, along with asking them to extend the EV incentives?

RedShift | December 17, 2019

What’s the justification of fossil fuel subsidies?

RedShift | December 17, 2019

@jordan

This is not about just Teslas, right?

tes-s | December 17, 2019

"His voters blame EVs for their job loss."

They are absolutely correct. It takes less labor to build EVs, and less labor to maintain them. They are job killers - just like all the other productivity improvements over the past century.

With unemployment at a 50 year low, lack of jobs does not seem to be our problem. On the contrary, we need more productivity and/or more workers to continue our expansion since labor is a limiting factor currently.

Bighorn | December 17, 2019

How else do you prop up a dead horse like coal when it’s a campaign promise to make coal great again?

tes-s | December 17, 2019

Can you tell me what fossil fuels subsidies should be removed from the budget? I'm surprised Trump does not want to cut them - he is anxious to cut everything else.

While I would like to see the EV credits extended, I don't think it really matters too much. Every manufacturer gets a helping hand to get started with EVs, and at this point they have no choice. Competitive pressures are driving them to produce EVs, and the economics is at a point where consumers will purchase the vehicles without the tax credit.

The real tipping point was the VW settlement and funding chargers. I see them popping up all over now, and that is very important for expanding EV adoption.

tes-s | December 17, 2019

@BH - I am against coal subsidies. I don't care what Trump promised.

What coal subsidy should I tell them to remove from the budget??

RedShift | December 17, 2019

@tes-s

This is something I had recently looked up:

https://www.eesi.org/papers/view/fact-sheet-fossil-fuel-subsidies-a-clos...

For a centuries old technology, there is no reason to provide subsidies. Especially since they cause many health issues from the pollution. Not to mention AGW, which might be just a Chinese hoax.

Tropopause | December 17, 2019

GM and Tesla out of the mix, the current EV tax credit rewards foreign brand products.

Make America Great Again?

tes-s | December 17, 2019

Ok - I will ask that all those subsidies be removed.

RedShift | December 17, 2019

Not if you count Ford. And Rivian. And all the foreign brands who setup shop here and employ Americans.

SO | December 17, 2019

Send invoices to the oil companies for our Middle East wars.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2007/sep/16/iraq.iraqtimeline

“Greenspan admits Iraq was about oil, as deaths put at 1.2m”

@tes-s - yes they are correct. But I’m not for propping up someone when they have other options available.

RedShift | December 17, 2019

@tes-s

I’m sorry, my bad. I thought you were interested in a serious discussion.

Daisy the Road ... | December 17, 2019

Let's see, we gave away our leads in the PV and Wind industries. What else can we give away?

PBEndo | December 17, 2019

The current EV tax credit plan was ill-conceived when the goal was to encourage/accelerate the move to electric. The cap should have been placed on the total number of EV's from all manufacturers or purely on a timeline. Then all of the manufacturers would have the incentive to get involved early. The per manufacturer cap and phase-out has allowed the legacy manufacturers to stay out of it until the market was proven by Tesla/Nissan/GM and still get the same benefit with less risk.

Bighorn | December 17, 2019

@PB
Everybody gets a trophy.

tes-s | December 17, 2019

"The current EV tax credit plan was ill-conceived when the goal was to encourage/accelerate the move to electric."

TARP EV tax credit and was signed into law in 2008. It was a $7,500 tax credit for the first 250,000 EVs.

That was changed in 2009 with ARRA under the next administration, and it became the current law which is phase-out after 200,000 per manufacturer.

As @BH says, everybody gets a trophy....

Darthamerica | December 17, 2019

Still not seeing any benefit, my vote, get rid of it. In fact it will motivate firms to find ways to reduce cost and be more competitive with ICEVs.

Darthamerica | December 17, 2019

By the logic here, a better use of this funding on development of opposed piston engines.

Daisy the Road ... | December 17, 2019

An MPG based tax on ICE vehicles would fund it nicely.

jordanrichard | December 17, 2019

RedShift, if the tax credit is not continued beyond the, that would only affect Tesla and GM. So other EV buyers will still get the benefit.

Darth as for the benefit of incentives for buying an EV, it’s no different than incentives to make energy efficiency changes to one’s home like energy efficient windows. It’s to help coax people into buying something that will save energy or reduce emissions.

jordanrichard | December 17, 2019

Daisy the Road, in a way there is already a MPG “tax” just by the mere fact that the worse MPG a car has, the more gas they buy which in turn increases tax revenue.

Darthamerica | December 17, 2019

Jordan but we aren’t saving energy or reducing overall emissions so it’s a waste of money in that case.

Daisy the Road ... | December 17, 2019

Jordan, I agree, however that tax is stuck at 1970's levels and needs a significant update.

acegreat1 | December 17, 2019

Darth, what you bench? Bet u don't answer.. Well, I bet you comment. Struggling

acegreat1 | December 17, 2019

Darth, what you bench? Bet u don't answer.. Well, I bet you comment. Struggling

PhillyGal | December 17, 2019

I definitely wish the credit had been written differently to begin with because like others have said, Tesla/GM/Nissan did the legwork so that now others can swoop in and benefit from the remaining credits.

Add my name to the list of folks who'd agree to ditch the EV credits forever if we also ditch fossil fuel subsidies.

tes-s | December 17, 2019

"I definitely wish the credit had been written differently to begin with"

It was!! TARP (Troubled Asset Relief Program public law 110-343) was for the first 250,000 cars. It changed with the ARRA (American Recovery and Reinvestment Act pubc law 111-5) to be 200,000 per manufacturer.

TARP language:
PHASEOUT PERIOD.—For purposes of this subsection, the phaseout period is the period beginning with
the second calendar quarter following the calendar quarter
which includes the first date on which the total number
of such new qualified plug-in electric drive motor vehicles
sold for use in the United States after December 31, 2008,
is at least 250,000.

ARRA language:
PHASEOUT PERIOD.—For purposes of this subsection,
the phaseout period is the period beginning with the second
calendar quarter following the calendar quarter which includes
the first date on which the number of new qualified plugin electric drive motor vehicles manufactured by the manufacturer of the vehicle referred to in paragraph (1) sold for use
in the United States after December 31, 2009, is at least
200,000.

New congress, new adminsitration - new law.

TranzNDance | December 17, 2019

It should either be extended or ended. Right now, the early participants, two of them American companies, are penalized compared to laggards, a majority of them foreign owned.

Tropopause | December 17, 2019

This will simply allow Tesla, with their superior products, to command even more market share.

tigerkc | December 17, 2019

All are peanuts compared to our national deficit. How many more years can we keep at the current deficit?

PhillyGal | December 17, 2019

@tes-s - Gotcha!

RedShift | December 17, 2019

@jordan

“ RedShift, if the tax credit is not continued beyond the, that would only affect Tesla and GM. So other EV buyers will still get the benefit.”

Yes, that’s what I am saying. It’s not just foreign car makers as Trop was saying. There are still US automakers who will see benefit. Also, there are a lot of foreign automakers building cars and employing thousands in the US. The tax rebates would help them scale and employ more or transition from fossils to electric.

Overall, a win.

sklancha | December 17, 2019

I have mixed emotions about the tax credit. Excuse me while I spin my head around for a minute...
-The tax credit did what it was intended to do: persuade car manufacturers and potential buyers to lead in that direction, but maybe not quite as far as was intended or needed.
-Lack of the tax credit could hurt Nissan/GM/ Tesla's sales as lazier manufacturers can benefit from the fruits of their labors and sweep the rug from under them.
-If the country is convinced that enough sales have been done to prime the system- maybe it is time to get rid of the whole EV tax credit (our government could use the money to offset the rich-man tax breaks)
-Carb tax solves all of it
-Saving $7,500 on a cheaper EV may be getting more persuasive as global warming becomes more real
-Since the government spends ridiculous amounts of money supporting the fossil fuel industry, and is doesn't acknowledge global warming... we may see a loss of traction in EV sales overall.

like I said- mixed emotions

jimglas | December 17, 2019

of course he did

Darthamerica | December 17, 2019

There's no proof of a global warming crisis. Fossil fuels are the life blood of Earth and a strategic resource. No one should ever get a tax credit for a personal vehicle that cost six figures. Not giving the credit is incentive for EV manufacturers to up their game and make EVs more compelling.

Daisy the Road ... | December 17, 2019

No problemo, just have ICE vehicles collect and dispose of their emissions.

nipper2 | December 17, 2019

@Darthamerica you must also think the earth is flat

inconel | December 18, 2019

"Fossil the life blood of Earth"
Huh? What kind of absurd anthropomorphism is this?

GoldAK47 | December 18, 2019

It actually wasnt Trumps doing, they were set to lower to nothing anyway. The left really pushed it as Trump doing something evil, but it wasnt the case.

RedShift | December 18, 2019

Because in Trumper’s world Trump can never do anything wrong. In perpetuity. Throughout the universe.

Darthamerica | December 18, 2019

@nipper2 no, I care more about a stable supply of energy more than I do about a hypothetical crisis that is unproven that I can adapt to either way. I voted for Trump so this is what I wanted.

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