Model 3 lowering expectations with each passing day...

Model 3 lowering expectations with each passing day...

Elon is doing a damn good job of talking me out of the car.... what color and wheel size for the initial configuration? what gives?

I was/am hoping options for battery size and GLASS ROOF (Must have for me).. don't care about battery size.

We will see... apparently 4 hour wait on 3/31 and seeking hourly updates on M3 turning to be sour.... (not?).

ReD eXiLe ms us | June 7, 2017

KP in NPT: Yes. Clearly the highest conceivable levels of sucktitude and sucktivity will be embraced when achieved. ;-)

Xerogas: Yup. That is the position I hold and stand by. Naysayers and Trolls and $#0r+s and all of their subservient Press should be waylaid by the smacketh downeth by actual $35,000 units being available from the outset. Too much money has been spent already to consider trying to prop up profit margin this early. That will come later, during 2018, and still two years ahead of the Elon Musk's original profitability in 2020. Actual investors have probably been holding since sometime in late September 2012 and have seen a very decent return already, with TSLA closing at $359.65 today -- far beyond the $29.28 they would have seen in 2012-09-28. Barring earthquake, tsunami, hurricane, or worse, $35,000 vehicles should roll out of Fremont in July, August, September, October, November, and December of this year bound for U.S. Customers.

bj | June 7, 2017

@mos6507 - "What is it missing?"

Spaceship steering (aka HUD/2nd display, even an option) - all the HUD/2nd display speculation was just that - speculation. Tesla never promised either of these things (the "spaceship" comment by EM was not specifying an option).
Controllable vent airflow - when was that ever promised, and how do you know Model 3 won't have it?
HEPA filter option - just because it's on S/X doesn't mean they have to offer it on Model 3. Can you quote EM or Tesla at any point saying it would be available?
Air suspension option - ditto.

If an option was never specified then it's not "missing". And inventions of the mind aren't things that are "missing" either.

If any of these items are deal breakers for you, then you either wait to see if they will be offered at some point, or cancel your reservation. Simple.

mos6507 | June 8, 2017

[the "spaceship" comment by EM was not specifying an option]

Doesn't matter. Musk is catching heat on this for good reason. He only has himself to blame for mentioning that and then never delivering anything remotely resembling "spaceship steering". He's never been able to reconcile the flip-flop, simply responding rudely to a guy who asked for a HUD by saying "NO". It's a genuine public relations fail.

[Controllable vent airflow - when was that ever promised, and how do you know Model 3 won't have it?]

Oh, gosh. Controllable airflow. Such an advanced feature. When was that first added to cars? The 1920s? It's not promised. It's assumed. How do we know the Model 3 doesn't have it? Well, visually speaking it sure as heck doesn't look like it. And like above, Musk has offered no clarification with his tweets. It also did not come up during the recent Q&A event did it?

[just because it's on S/X doesn't mean they have to offer it on Model 3]

When Musk responded "of course" that the Model 3 would have a Ludicrous option it reasonably got everybody to believe that nothing was off the table.

So no, they don't have to offer it, but again, an arbitrary decision if they don't.

[If an option was never specified then it's not "missing"]

Options have never been specified, period. That's why there has been speculation here for the last year. It's a moving target.

bj | June 8, 2017

@mos6507 - what is "spaceship" in one person's mind might be very different from what EM had in mind. Maybe what we know of the Model 3 interior is exactly what EM thinks of as "spaceship" - minimalist because technology takes care of most things so no need for all the accoutrements. Does "spaceship" only mean one thing in your mind?

Re controllable vent airflow - you admit we don't know how it might be implemented in Model 3, ergo it is premature to claim it is "missing".

For Ludicrous mode - while it seems very unlikely that it will be offered among the initial options, that doesn't matter, it only needs to be offered at some point in the future. Again not "missing" until and unless it is *never* offered on Model 3.

Iwantmy3 | June 8, 2017

Right now, and for the next few months, the only cars Tesla is selling at a profit are the "S" and "X". (The "3" will need to ramp up substantially before it achieves good margins) Tesla cannot afford to have these sales slip due to a car that does not yet exist. This is a side effect of announcing the "3" 15 months before production. The anti-sell of the "3" is a necessary survival tactic.

Having said that, the only lowered expectation I have seen is the move away from "Wait until you see the real steering controls and system for the 3. It feels like a spaceship." which has since turned into "being driven in a taxi".

I continue to have faith that this is nothing more than setting the stage for something unexpected at the reveal.

jefjes | June 8, 2017

Unless they are putting in the bigger battery at the base $35k price, I think it will be a mistake to not have a $35k M3 available on launch. I know it wasn't promised as to when it would be available but to many that put up their interest free $1k before the reveal it will seem a little misleading. Honey will you take out the trash- Sure dear- 2 weeks later- I thought you said- I didn't say when...
That logic may not fly for many first time EVers or those new to Tesla and without having a more confirmed date of when that promised $35k car will be available, refunds may start to become more noticeable. Some will figure that they've waited this long so what's a bit longer but there needs to be some indication fairly soon. I'm sure that plenty of reservationist are stretching their budgets just to get into the base car and may not have unending patience to leave that money tied up. For those that had planned to opt for the bigger battery and not much else, they are probably delighted that that seems to be what's coming first.

burdogg | June 8, 2017

It seems that Tesla is damned if they do, damned if they don't :)

When we all put the reservation down - we ALL did not expect a car to be delivered in July. In fact, most all were expecting very end of the 4th quarter - Christmas! But now that Tesla revamped everything and pushed extra hard to try to get something out in July, we are all now expecting to get our cars in September exactly how we want it (base, fully optioned, etc...).

I get that we are all excited, but man, Tesla just can't get it right I guess. They wait till December and deliver first cars then and allow all options, we are happy, but all the naysayers say, see way late. So Tesla actually delivers way AHEAD of time, and now none of us are happy with what they are getting done?

I guess maybe I am reading too much into not being happy, but man, I just get the sense that no matter what Tesla does, it is not good enough.

Ehninger1212 | June 8, 2017

I'm not going to pass judgement on Tesla until they reveal the car.

If it beats 215 miles of range awesome! If not that's what I expected. I didn't expect to see this car in my driveway until the middle of 2018 at the earliest when I reserved on 3-31, so I have have to wait that long to get all the cool options I want im cool with it, more time to save up for extras!

If they deliver a base price $35000 car, with 215 miles range, 0-60 under 6 seconds and it's the safest in its class. I'll be more than happy.

But I'm willing to put money on the model 3 being better than ALL of the reveal stats.

burdogg | June 8, 2017

Here is one article:

"Musk is "fairly confident" that deliveries will begin by the end of 2017"

Note this was Mar 31, 2016 - and fairly confident deliveries begin END of 2017! END.

Get this article from Electrek about Car and Driver saying it would be 2 years late (date of Article Aug 9, 2016)

Quote from that article:
"Tesla’s deadline for the Model 3 is July 1st, 2017. Musk said that while internal teams and suppliers will be held accountable for meeting this deadline, he doesn’t expect that they will achieve it, which is why Tesla advertises deliveries in “late 2017”."

He does note expect to achieve July deadline....Wait what - guess what - we are there! It will happen now.

eeb9 | June 8, 2017

There will always be *someone* who isn't happy with any given decision. Also, this forum is home to a very small-but-vocal fraction of all reservation holders. Based on what I've seen here, this forum - including the fanbois, the FUD Brigade, the spammers and everyone in-between - represents ~.001 of all reservation holders.

Our opinions are essentially statistical noise from that standpoint, though I *do* expect that Tesla is paying very close attention to the ebb and flow of these topics...

We're their loudest fans and most vocal critics - right here in a place where Elon can keep his eyes and ears on us at all times.

eeb9 | June 8, 2017

Dang - we need an edit option... the format of that post sucks. Sorry - I hope the meaning comes through! :-D

burdogg | June 8, 2017

Just re-listened to the original unveil - Elon said when available - End of next year.

Now, it truly could still be end of next year, but my bet is sometime in September we see non-employees getting these cars. As far as adding options - that may be end of this year, first of next year, which is pretty much still on the original time frame (and we don't know if the original time frame was for all the options either :)

Sorry, My rant is over now.

burdogg | June 8, 2017

eeb9 - yep - I think some of my frustration is the media in general - Seeking Alpha I avoid, but i still see all the billion titles of articles on there and I find it amazing how those that write there will never admit they were wrong :) They can throw out their predictions as fact (ie Tesla will never get this car out in 2017) and then when proven wrong, they have already moved on to something else Tesla can't do, or why it won't be successful, etc. etc...

So everyone just ignore my rant :) Had to throw it out there somewhere :)

mos6507 | June 8, 2017

"here in a place where Elon can keep his eyes and ears on us at all times."

Which is why criticism should not be met with "then just STFU and cancel your reservation". There should be more of an open line of communciation between consumer desires and Tesla management.

I mean, at this point my mind is made up that the vent and the display situation are genuine issues. People can theorize what percentage feel likewise, and the nature of things is that there are enough early adopters for these issues not to matter--initially. The validation or disproof of my feeling that these are genuine issues is gonna come when the car is initially reviewed. What's Car & Driver or Consumer Reports gonna think? Sure, Red and his ilk can claim the MSM/establishment is "against" EVs (despite the fact the Model S was Motor Trend's car of the year for 2013 and the Bolt is 2017s). It's this cult-like thinking that really ruffles my feathers, this sense that anything other than 100% gushing praise is somehow a actionable offense to the church of Elon.

People should absolutely whine about what they don't like. It's a natural and healthy part of the capitalist feedback loop. That there is no universal opinion on controversial things like the dash should not be seen as a cause to try to strong-arm critics into liking what they don't like. Taste is subjective and it always will be.

burdogg | June 8, 2017

mos6507 - You are exactly right on taste is subjective :) Thing is - at this point, I don't see Tesla changing the design of the dash - too late in that game. Now, if the Model 3 flops, or sales really slip - that is the feedback that Tesla will take and then work on relaunching a different 3 or refresh it.

I don't know - I am not and never have been involved with car making process, but I do know - right now, they are not changing the design of the interior no matter how much chatter they get on the web.

Now after they launch, if the feedback from owners etc... that now have experience with it is bad, then they will start refreshing it.

So maybe that is the issue some are taking - right now, you have no idea, just going off your previous thoughts, without ever in person experiencing the new. And again, I can complain about my personal opinion all I want, but that design is locked in for now. So if it was me in charge, I would not listen to complaints about something that is set and hasn't been experienced by those complaining yet :) (Of course we are all probably glad I am not in charge)

Frank99 | June 8, 2017

mos6507 -
Frankly, I find that the board is really open to people expressing their opinions. You don't like the interior, or Tesla's communications, whatever, you'll get good healthy conversations going. You're not going to be able to make critical statements without hearing from people on the other side - but that's healthy.

What this forum doesn't seem to be open to is people stating "alternative facts". To take a specific example, in answer to "What is it missing?", you gave the example of "Controllable vent airflow", amongst a number of other options. Unfortunately, stating as a fact that "controllable vent airflow" is "missing" will cause a great deal of pushback because it's unknown and not a fact; had you expressed an opinion that you were concerned about how the vents would work because it wasn't obvious from what had been revealed, you would have gotten a different response.

topher | June 8, 2017

I wonder if this is the "staring into the abyss" part, or the "chewing glass" part. I suspect the latter.

Thank you kindly.

Iwantmy3 | June 8, 2017

Whatever the design is, it is not going to change now. We can just wait and hope that our specific "wants" will be met. Unless there is something which is truly a deal breaker, we will all simply adjust to what the reality will be.

As much as I would like to see a HUD, it is not a deal breaker. In the end, what matters most to me is getting the car sooner. My original plan, before I considered the "3", was to by a new car this spring. (My current car is not young any more plus I would like to pass it on to my uni-versity age kids while it is still functional) At this point, I want them to build as many as they can to their current planned design so I can start driving it ASAP. None of the "lowered expectations" has had any impact on that primary need.

Iwantmy3 | June 8, 2017

Wow, I got uni-versity past the censors.

ReD eXiLe ms us | June 8, 2017

bj & burdogg: Very good points! I don't believe in the 'No Win Situation'. If someone wants to present me with such a paradox, where I'm Damned if I Do, and Damned if I Don't, I've realized that means they simply decided I am Damned.

Well, it doesn't matter what they decide. Screw 'em. What matters is that I do what I want to do, the way I want to do it. Once I have managed that feat, I can declare victory and give those guys... The FINGER.

Rocky_H | June 8, 2017

You and the Kobayashi Maru, eh, Red?

ReD eXiLe ms us | June 8, 2017

Frank99: Agreed. I've argued for about three years now with people who have ideas whereby they believe Tesla would 'sell more cars' by doing one thing or the other. I approach those conversations the same way as I do those about 'independent franchised dealerships'. Those guys claim that by using the 'franchise dealership system' Tesla would be able to 'sell more cars'. But, they have no explanation for why it is that established manufacturers like Cadillac, have have hundreds more locations than Tesla in the U.S. (by around 800 sites), are able to have practically unrestricted access to the market in all 50 States (while Tesla can only sell direct in maybe 24 or 26 of them), but each of their passenger cars is outsold by the Tesla Model S. The same sort of 'logic' is applied to those who claim that Tesla would sell 'more cars' if they were 'more luxurious'. Well, compared against each of the 'more luxurious' flagship vehicles from AUDI, BMW, Mercedes-Benz, and Porsche -- the Model S outsells them all.

Apparently the 'sell more cars' contingent, whether of the 'independent franchised dealerships' or the 'more luxurious interiors' branch, are saying one thing, but meaning another. So, they look at the combined sales of all competitors, and mark that as evidence there is a 'wider market' than Tesla can address alone with their current tactics. Here the thing is, though... They cannot point to any other automobile manufacturer that through their entire product line outsells all other product lines from every other manufacturer combined. No one does that. Ever. So, acting as if Tesla ~*SHOULD*~ be able to 'sell more cars' to that level is utterly ridiculous.

I believe that if Tesla were to attempt to make their cars 'like everyone else' on the inside and outside, the result would be disastrous. I've noted that Acura sales have been horrible since they made the attempt to become 'more luxurious' as some would say 'like everyone else'. Fisker and Coda attempted to use 'independent franchised dealerships' for distribution of vehicles 'like everyone else'. Didn't work, and those companies went out of business. In fact, over the course of 90 years or so, there is no evidence that a new American automobile was aided to success by having a network of 'independent franchised dealerships' that helped them to 'sell more cars'. Hyundai's Genesis division has cars that are packed to the gills with 'luxury' and are reasonably priced, with a level of surprising attention to detail, fit, and finish -- plus, they are offered through 'independent franchised dealerships' -- but they don't 'sell more cars' than AUDI, BMW, Mercedes-Benz or Porsche.

You know what though? Tesla does, against direct competitors to Model S. Without the 'luxurious' interior or help from 'independent franchised dealerships'. Heh. What a coinkadink.

ReD eXiLe ms us | June 8, 2017

Rocky_H: Make it so. Get it done. Engage.

Ross1 | June 9, 2017

universi ty. col lege.
But I still cannot post new topics on Chrome, whereas I can on Firefox.

Just trying the auto censor

Ross1 | June 9, 2017

those first two words were stopped.

Try: Univversity

mos6507 | June 9, 2017

[Unfortunately, stating as a fact that "controllable vent airflow" is "missing" will cause a great deal of pushback]

The underlying issue which I'm strongly implying is that the dash issue is mostly a PR fail. Tesla has kept the press away from the interior for a year now and this is what fanned all the speculation. The initial reaction to what little we did see on the first reveal was "oh, that must not be the finished interior".

That is NOT what Tesla must have wanted to hear.

When they sent out the special gift, the concept art, you see how the stick-on iPad and blank dash was the plan from day-one. It's a risky design move on Tesla's part. Tesla fanbois will celebrate it just because they like the narrative of Tesla being risky. But the Model 3 was NOT supposed to be the platform in which to try out weird ideas. Musk supposedly learned his lesson from the falcon-wing doors, right? Apparently not.

As far as official statements on the interior all we've gotten so far are flippant statements from Musk like "NO" on the Hud and references to the Model 3 as a robo-taxi. The vent only has early statements from Tesla reps, nothing from Musk.

So now we're going to go all the way into July, the 2nd reveal, immediately before the configurator is enabled, before we have any final chance for Tesla to say, for the record "Look, this is the interior. This is why we did what we did. This is what it can do and what it can't."

So again, even if the explanation for the dash wins me and others over, it never should have been allowed to go all the way down to the wire like this.

When something is concealed like this it gives one the impression that they're embarassed by it. I know some people think the opposite, that there is some magical tech (spaceship steering) that they're waiting to unveil. I don't buy it. I think they either know people won't like the dash or they are simply tone-deaf to people's concerns and that's why there's been so much radio-silence on it. The die's been cast. They're rolling with it, and they'll take the heat, basically.

Rocky_H | June 9, 2017

@mos6507 gets all the forum points today. Absolutely right.

Ehninger1212 | June 9, 2017

I think the interiors at the reveal were awesome, I only disliked the actual steering wheel. Steering wheel changed already. Rest of the interior looks great on spy photos I have seen (in my opinion). Can't wait to see different iterations. New cars are getting to cluttered for my taste. When I first saw the interior It was total shock and awe for me. Simple, clean, elegant.

Tcloutier5890 | June 9, 2017

Interior still looks like an afterthought. Not the kind of spaceship I would design to fly in. Here's to pleasant surprises!

eeb9 | June 9, 2017

I hated the iPhone the first time I saw it. No keyboard.

Now, mostly, I don't mind since a good UI in an app minimizes the need to enter test values.

BUT... Every time I actually *do* need to type, I still hate it.

It's a design choice that I tolerate, but will never celebrate.

Based on what I've seen to-date (and still doing my best to withhold judgement until I see it "live"), the M3 dash falls into that same category. Will it stop me from buying and loving the M3? Hardly. Do I love it? Well, no... but I'll deal with it

ReD eXiLe ms us | June 9, 2017

If you haven't taken the time to really look at the interiors of direct competitors to Model ☰, you should do so, and be fully aware of the vast number of buttons and switches you would have to deal with in them.

eeb9 | June 9, 2017

I have a MINi with toggle switches everywhere I look.

I love it. I may get fake toggles for my M3 just to meke me feel at home... ;-)

Frank99 | June 9, 2017

mos6507 -
Think back to the first reveal - the dash looked exactly like it does today, and Musk said that the dash “will make sense after part 2”. The second reveal was full autonomy and the Tesla network - and in that context, the dash makes sense. Nobody will be controlling the car, so nobody needs steam pressure gauges.

Now, I agree that how the HVAC system works and how you get it to blow the air temperature you want where you want it has nothing to do with autonomy and the Tesla network. Current cars have a pretty well tuned approach to doing so, it's pretty obvious that Tesla is doing something completely different, and it's not at all obvious how Tesla's approach works and how it's going to compare with what we're used to. I'm willing to give Tesla the benefit of the doubt - to believe that they want to be comfortable when driving as much as anyone else. I'm concerned, because to the best of my knowledge none of the designers live in the extreme environment that I do here in Phoenix, so perhaps they didn't do as good a job as what I'm used to. But, there's a glimmer of hope that perhaps, with an A/C system not limited by the RPM of the ICE, one that can blow cold air before I get up to highway speed, it'll actually be better. We'll see.

eeb9 | June 9, 2017

That full autonomy thing...

It's still a few years away... and I *need* to know my rate of unicorn-tear depletion and the arming status of the "cool" roof-mounted lasers without taking my eyes off my targets...errr I mean the road

Iwantmy3 | June 9, 2017

Yes. Full autonomy is a few years away. Even then, I am not buying this car because I want it to drive me around. I am not even sure that will want the FSD. I want a car that I can enjoy driving myself. To do that, I would benefit from having critical information where it can be the most easily seen. I am not asking for much, NAVDYs are relatively cheap and do everything I would want.

ReD eXiLe ms us | June 9, 2017

You know, whenever I have operated an electric work cart, I didn't even bother looking at the speedometer. Not even when I drove one in a parade. I judged my speed by the traffic in front of me then. Heck, I'm not sure if they even had speedometers. There might have only been a charge level gauge for all I know.

Bluesday Afternoon | June 9, 2017

College is spelled C o l l e g e. This is a test and control of your screen will return shortly.

nyca | June 9, 2017

They have a list of 100s of thousands of people who will take the car, anyway Musk produces it. If Musk came out tomorrow and said they would all be black, they would still buy them. Step back and let the initial demand bubble take the production run and wait for the car to improve (it will) and more options to be offered. Musk is even telling you at the press conference - buy a used Model S and wait it out.

vicmgvaz | June 10, 2017

In Portugal we have, for now, 2250 euros of incentive, no use taxes for EV, but have to pay VAT 23%.
About topic, Elon is trying to do not prejudice Model S and X sells because a new Tesla car.
Model 3 will be a Tesla, with the brand guarantee, and affordable. Who have 70.000 to spend in to, maybe could buy a S...