I've narrowed it down to these two cars and would like some help making a decision. Thanks!
You came to the wrong forum for objective opinion.
Test drive and you'll know...
You should probably go over to the Porsche Forums and post: Thinking about going 100% Electric. Thoughts?
Although I like TommyBoy's idea, perhaps we can be helpful too--what is important to you - performance, space, cost of ownership, etc?
I'm primarily interested in performance.. Don't care much about the green efficiency aspect. The appearance/road presence of the car is also important to me. Thanks everyone for your help. This is a major decision and I just want to get it right.
It's not an MS vs panemara thread but might do the trick:
Yes, do a test drive.
The Tesla has far more storage space and is much more of a practical car. I can't tell you the number of times I've had the back trunks full and am wondering where to put stuff, then I remember, oh! The frunk!
For apples to apples, test drive a P85+.
Never worry about running out of gas, or having to go to the gas station at some inconvenient time - always have a full charge every morning.
It is also very nice on hot days to be able to pull up your Tesla on your iPhone app and turn on the AC before you get to it.
It's nice not having this really hot motor heating up your garage when you come home.
No gears, so acceleration is super smooth and way more responsive than the Porsche. The single pedal driving of the Tesla is great for aggressive drivers. You can zoom into and slow down in traffic all without touching the brake, while recapturing most of the energy black into the battery.
Future or Past? Where do you want to live in the present? Buy the answer.
Panamera can seat maximum of four people. Model S can seat five people. Comfortably. No hump.
Oh, it's also electric. And if you're not purchasing a $150K Panamera Turbo S then the Model S is also faster off the line. Unless you want to do 140mph+ which means jail here in the US.
Fence Sitter: Let me reframe this question for you. You can't decide between a revolutionary car that's made in the United States and doesn't pollute versus a car that's made in Germany and burns a ton of Middle East oil? Why don't you read that last sentence over and over as often as necessary until the right answer becomes evident to you?
There is more to this question than just the sound of an engine or the joy of shifting gears. Be an American. Be a Patriot. You want to "get it right"? How could this be any clearer?
LOL Rob! Your response is very polarizing.
Tesla is much rare on the road. "Cool" factor is off the charts.
Go head and Test drive both, as the others mentioned.
I love my model S. I can't imagine driving anything else, let it be Bentley, Ferrari or loaded Panamera.
I faced the same question, Panemera, Maserati GT or Tesla. I got the P85+. No regrets.
Thanks for all your feedback. Did anyone else on the site consider both cars? If so, what was your analysis?
It was intended to clarify Fence Sitter's priorities. I recognize some might view it as polarizing, but as early adopters we're all making a statement. For me, the statement is that I can now get the best car in the world without a compromise: it's American, it's brilliant, it's gorgeous, it doesn't pollute (I run it off the solar cells on my roof, so it essentially runs on sunlight), and no U.S. soldiers are fighting (and dying) anywhere to keep the oil coming so I can run my BMW or Porsche. That's just the way I see it; am I mistaken?
I hate the Panamera but have been a lifelong fan of the 911. I was considering a 2013 991 911 Carrera S and after the first of two test drives in the Model S knew that I would never own a Porsche again.
Well, maybe a GT3 some day during a midlife crisis.
Panamera is UGLY, has absolutely zero presence (kind of like the Cayenne - have you ever looked twice at a 100K Cayenne Turbo on the road?) and eats gas. No thanks.
A few years back when ever someone asked what car I'd like to drive if I could I always said I'm already driving it (have an Evo X) and wouldn't want any other car as in Estonia the roads aren't that great for a Lambo or similar. However now I'm no longer driving the car I'd want though I hope starting from January I will be driving again the best car in the world. The model S.
You can't beat electric engine in performance and the battery pack down low gives you a ferrari equivalent of center of gravity. I think it's a no brainer. Porsche has a nice name, but a lot of people have it and if you're a porsche fanatic then that's for you. I personally consider porsches to be ugly for example :)
No rob, you're spot on.
You mean 'No tanks'? /9}
I own a 911 and a P85 (Purchased before + option came out). Obviously I am a Porsche enthusiast and I did not go for the Panamera.
Here's another thread for you to read...
Fence sitter -
The Porsche is beautifully crafted and lovingly engineered, but it is all from old school values. Intricacy and complexity are celebrated and indulged. Gears, clutches, switches, gauges, oil pumps, fuel pumps, cams, valves, on and on. They got so good at it, in their world, this defines a car.
But technology marches on, and the inflection point has now been reached. The Model S manifests the inherent advantage of electric drive. It cannot be matched by gas now, and the gap will widen in the years to come.
To Tesla, the test of prowess is instead, simplicity. No transmission, 99% fewer moving parts, and instant, silent, liquid smooth thrust. There is simply nothing like it in the gas world.
Going 150 mph (which I confess) is a thrill you will rarely ever exercise. Only a few of us ever spend our days at the track. But the joy of just shooting into a void between cars as quickly as you can will it ... that is the gift that keeps on giving every day you drive it.
Looks? I like the the 911, but the Panamera is a sports car grown fat. The Model S is a sedan sculpted into a svelte beauty. IMHO their comparative presence when you stand before them very much favors the Tesla.
Financially, no machine is a great investment, but IMO the Porsche will decline in value much more rapidly as the technology transition propagates.
None of this matters so much. If you are looking at this class of car, it is really an emotionally-driven decision, and what brings happiness is unique to you.
As with finding the right woman, and all matters of the heart, you must experience it and you will know. It won't be complicated at all. Drive them. You'll simply know.
The Tesla wins by every metric. It's never the 0-60. It's overall ride feel, acceleration and creation of adrenaline.
At every speed you press the pedal to the floor, the car shoots forward.
It throws you back into the seat with minimal effort. It's available without launch controls and seems to sense your desire to go before you have the conscious thought.
We call it the space ship.
The presence and looks are more subjective but it does get noticed.
Be prepared to get asked tons of questions. People wave and honk.
Yes, I was in the same spot as you.
I considered the very recently launched Panamera S E-Hybrid vs a Tesla Model S (living in Europe).
Here's my analysis:
* the E-Hybrid has 30 to 40 km usable electric range -> that's enough for my average daily trips (shopping, kids to school, kids to tennis club, swimming club, etc.)
* the E-Hybrid has an exquisite Porsche finish, which got even better with this iteration (definitely better than a Model S, but I personally don't care much for the extra quality)
* the E-Hybrid to my minimal liking needed about 15.000 Euro of options, totaling about 130.000 Euro
* the E-Hybrid is more than fast enough for a daily driver
* the E-Hybrid, being a hybrid, has a gas engine allowing unlimited range, thanks to all the gas stations polluting the view along our roads
* although there's a big tax benefit on E-Hybrid as well, it would still cost me 30K to 40K Euro more over 5 years of use (wow!)
* the E-Hybrid optionally has all the goodies you could want on a car... at a price, of course... a HUGE Porsche price!
* the Model S has an enormous electric range, but to drive it on vacation to Spain, I'll need to wait for the Superchargers to pop up in Europe (and eventually replace the gas stations)
* the Model S P85 fully loaded is still less than 110.000 Euro (20k less than the Panamera). but you cannot get all the goodies that you can get on a Panamera
* the Model S is the only sedan you can buy with such big tax benefits (for as lang as the last, of course)
* the Model S is unique, attractive, and it is a true zero-emission car (since my electricity at home is 100% wind energy)
* the Model S P85 is blazingly fast! (and I like fast)
* the Model S has a lot more storage space, although a bit less creature comfort than the E-Hybrid
In the end, it's personal taste, opinion and especially budget. But if you're going for a green car, I would go truly green and not half-assed green with a hybrid. That said, a hybrid is still better than a pure ICE car, environmentally.
I threw away all the Porsche documentation because I ordered my Model S two weeks ago.
Nuf said ;-)
Fence Sitter, Please note that we own a few other cars including a GT-R and We are on our 4th Porsche 911. We looked at the Panamera and Model S earlier this year when we were looking at getting a larger car to replace my wife's BMW 335D. It was nice to consider a "green" car but that was quite honestly not that important...what We wanted was sharp looks, quickness, handling, room, uniqueness, good gas mileage ( the Diesel routinely got 33 mpg) and fun factor. I know We are in the minority when I say We like the looks of the Panamera, and I am a Posche guy, so this was a tough decision...but, in the end, after test driving both, the 2nd test drive was in the Model S, we decided on the Model S after about 4 minutes in the car and flooring it the 1st time. There is nothing like that feeling ( the Tesla Grin) of INSTANT acceleration...and, everything else about the car including the 17" screen, the minimalist luxury look inside the car, able to call up your song from the Internet radio, being American made, was just icing on the cake. Now, after 5 months of ownership with the Model S, knowing that we have a full tank of electricity in the morning, every morning is a great feeling along with not having to go to the the gas station. You will be very happy with your Model S decision...just take that test drive and you will see! ENJOY.
If looks are one of your criteria, how could the Panamera even be a consideration?
I traded in a Panamera for an S and I very rarely regret it. In high speed "twisties" I prefer the Panamera. In all other respects, I prefer the S.
My cousin is dumping his Panamera, which he used to love, after a ride in the MS.
I recognize some might view it as polarizing, but as early adopters we're all making a statement.
Well, if the statement is something along the lines of "We're a bunch of snotty fanatics who hold those who do not agree with us in contempt", then, success!
Tesla's long-term success will depend on sales to people who are not trying to make a statement; the car must compete on its own terms with the ICE crowd.
Which it can do very well, as the number of owners here who own or have owned comparable high-end ICE vehicles proves. And I just ordered mine yesterday.
It can be fun to poke people here-- have I mentioned I think AGW is bullshit?-- but snarky, sarcastic replies to sincere inquiries like this do not do anything to advance the brand.
My Dad also considered the Panamera.
To him it made more sense in almost every category. I live in manhattan, we take road trips, I'm college visiting, we can park in our current garage. But I tried to convince him (successfully) that the tesla would be more fun to drive, it could realistically work for our family because it seats 5, it would be cheaper to own, and I'd enjoy it more than a 5 series or a Panamera. Although we have yet receive our MS, I can assure you, he was blown away during the test drive.
Here are somethings to consider:
If quickness matters to you (0-60) then the MS is going to be faster than any Panamera except the turbo/s
The fact that the MS can comfortably seat 5.
You'll want to consider that the Panamer has more headroom in the back seat.
You'll want to consider if you like hearing the engine or if the silence and quickness of the MS appeals to you more
You'll want to consider price of gas vs electricity
Whether or not you live in a Metro area?
Whether or not you can charge everyday?
Where do you charge?
When you look at them side by side which one makes you happier.
Do I want to be an early adopter? The supercharging infrastructure wont be ready for a little while.
Do I want to have people staring at me, ogling my car everywhere I go.
Do I want to have to talk to people about my car, about tesla, and about electric cars?
Like I said before, it was me who persuaded my dad to go for the MS, he's not really a car guy so to him it didn't really matter. But theres just something about the MS that just hooks you. It's impossible to replicate.
I hope you choose an MS but if you don't all I can say is you're missing out on something awesome.
Perhaps you like to know what other people have decided to buy. MS outsells Porsche, that's combined sales of Panamera, Cayenne, 911, Cayman and Boxter, in California this year. The only thing going for Panamera is probably rarity on the street but that fact did not help the Fiat 500 so it probably should not help Panamera either. Think about it there is some similarity in looks of these two cars. I'm a current Porsche owner and have no intention of bashing Porsche but it's certainly outclassed by the MS. Just my personal opinion.
Rob - a second to you being spot on - at 66 years of age the idea of a fast stealthy car is intriguing - owned a Vett, owned a Porsche, owned a Lincoln Mark, owned a Lexus LS and SC, but nothing compares to the Model S - it is Mercedes S series in fit and finish, also in size - it is Mazarati Quadraport, Aston Martin Rapide, Jaguar in appearance, - it is Porsche Carrera, Chevy Corvette fast - and it is 100 mpg - and the cool factor, on the freeway all kinds of different car drivers pull alongside and give the thumbs up - cool indeed -
I ordered my Model S after my first test drive and loved the Panamera 4 I was driving at the time. I loved the Panamera, but the drive of the Model S was so compelling that it made the decision easy. The Panamera was more "refined" and had the creature comforts that the Model S simply does not have yet, but After 6 months of the Tesla I am very pleased with the exchange.
Fence - I would have considered the Panamera, however I had a nice 5-Series and I saw small, evolutionary improvements in making that step to the Panamera. Could have kept swimming in the water with better fins, but then I looked around and the Model S was crawling up onto land! That's REVOLUTIONARY, not simply evolutionary. I wanted that. I literally laugh when I drive by Panameras with dealer plates, or high end Mercedes and BMWs. Seriously. I just think, "Why?"
What model Panamera?
The only 2 models i would choose over the P85 would be a GTS or the Panamera Turbo.
Cattledog - I had the exact same progression. Had a 5-series that I was planning on keeping for 3-4 years, thought about a Panamera or 6-series next, but ended up selling the 5-series a year after I bought it while I wait for my p85.
I've only driven over 130 once when I was younger and dumber, but I do go 0-60 quite a lot :)
I used to love the Panamera interior with all its living room luxury, but have come to appreciate the clean simplicity and space of the ms much more. Even when I was considering it, though, I thought it was butt-ugly (or rather just ugly in the butt)
I would also ask this question on a neutral forum
if you ask here you'll always get the same response no matter
if contemplating buying a VEYRON or p85 LOL
Drive them again until the cars tell you the answer.
I drove both and the Turbo Pan. is an awesome car to drive.
I bought the S+ on price/value and the thrill of something so innovative.
King is right to some extent. Of course any forum you visit will be mostly preselected for those who have already chosen that car for various reasons (and the rare true troll trying to besmirch the car). Call it bias if you will, but it's also the fact that we choose the car after careful consideration, a test drive, and having come from a history of exclusively driving iCE cars... we have proven ex-Ferrari, Aston Martin, Audi R8, and Porsche drivers who rarely wish to start up their ice anymore.
Definitely check out the other forums as well, but then ask to see how many ex-ms drivers there are, or how many even took a test drive.
Try both out, only you can prevent forest fires and make your car decision. You'll enjoy either one though, I "promise"*
*promise does not constitute a legally binding guarantee. Promise are broken every day. Your actual mileage may vary. Don't do drugs and stay in school.
BUY THE PORSCHE ,if you like buying premium gas every week!
@Cattledog +1 "when I drive by Panameras with dealer plates, or high end Mercedes and BMWs. Seriously. I just think, "Why?""
I had exactly the same feeling a few years ago when I saw people pull Motorola or Blackberry phones out their pocket. Those Porsches, BMWs or MB's are nice (past) cars but you don't like the very best your money can buy?
like i said, i'm not sure which model panamera your looking at but here is a comparison with the turbo and p85.
you will pay 35k more for the turbo and of course annual fuel costs.
Huh, the Panamera Turbo is only a 500 HP engine? I had a 2 seater 500 HP engine with my Mercedes SL55. The Tesla S P85 is faster. Maybe not on a test track, but in actual driving situations it is since the Model S accelerates instantly.
It is hard to imagine - high end ICE sports cars have much better throttle response than your normal car. But the Model S takes it to a whole new level.
@THEKING One thing that I have to command you is your insistency. Do you sell Porsche for living? Didn't people alreday pointed out to you many time the one you've been showing is not a test review but just a summary of specs and it got even model year, weight and torque of MS all wrong?
Dear Mr. King:
Panamera Turbo (bare bones) is $141.000 according to the Porsche web site.
Model S P85 is $91.000 (bare bones) or 55% less than a Panamera Turbo.
huh? nobody ever questioned that
no it is not
the panamera turbo is faster to 30... to 60 and....... in the 1/4 mile by 1.2 seconds
this is on a STREET
not a track
a well equipped turbo will be 150k with discount of approx 5%
ms well equipped about 115k
correct? hence 35k
@THEKING, you aren't getting what I am saying. The Porsche, like all ICE vehicles, has throttle delay before the car actually starts moving. The Tesla has zero delay. In practice, it makes the Tesla P85 feel faster than the Porsche, since you are most often doing short quick accelerations in real world driving, rather than 4 seconds of sustained smashing the pedal to the floor.
The bottom line is you have to test drive both.
to be clear. i would choose the P85 over all the other Panamera models of which there are 7 or 8
other than the GTS and turbo models.
As mentioned earlier, asking on a Tesla forum if you should get a Tesla is like going to church and asking if you should believe in God.
I can only imagine the responses on a Porsche forum for the same question.
That being said, check out this consumer reports review of Model S, particularly where they compare it to a Panamera. Particularly starting at 6:30 they specifically talk about a comparison to the Panamera and ride quality, handling. Yes, I know this is a hand picked glowing review of Model S (the oft-quoted Consumer Reports review in video form).
If you're a name brand junkie, like my in laws, you'll still say "a Porsche is a Porsche." I see Porsches, BMWs, MBs everywhere, and they now seem very common, while Telsas are a relative rarity (yes, even in California - Teslas are still only a tiny percentage of cars on the road). Others will attest to the inordinate attention they get when stopped somewhere. Whether or not this is a factor in your decision is very personal.