Not completely true. The MB is a nuked-up AMGRENNtech E63 AMG. If this is what it takes for (slightly) quickly performance, the Model S (and Tesla) still wins in my book.
Well I guess if strait line performance is ones only criteria as to the value of a car then my money is on an alcohol or nitro dragster! lol!!.
Foolish comparisons IMHO. Overall Model S simply has no comprable ICE powered competition when taking the whole package into consideration.
Yeah, even the stock 2012 Mercedes E63 AMG Sedan (with the "performance package I assume) can supposedly beat the Model S Performance: 0-60 mph 3.8 Quarter Mile 11.9.
As can (supposedly) the C63: 2012 Mercedes C63 AMG 0-60 mph 3.8 Quarter Mile 12.0
I think it's a pretty apt comparison, given that the E63 with performance package starts at $97,100. They're both large luxury sedans with ridiculous power.
The C63 with performance package starts at $65,850.
Yeah I think the driver of the Model S held back on the start since he caught a red light for jumping the green
Actually, it cannot... The Model S beat (pretty handily) a stock E63 AMG.http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xYwSiLTcF0Q
Also, the AMGRENNtech E63 AMG is at least a 15K upgrade over the stock E63.
C63 - different animal completely and probably not cross shopped. (Maybe I'm incorrect here, but I don't think so....)
Bottom line - I agree with Superliner - the heavily modified AMGRENNtech E63 vs a stock MS is in the end, a foolish compairson.
The guy who wrote that article is a moron..."EV's aren't popular with gearheads and probably never will be"
What a retarded statement. Mercedes with nearly 120 years of refinement of their internal combustion engines and cars vs Tesla with about 5 years experience in building EV's...the Mercedes is more expensive and only just BARELY beats the Tesla...so who do you think wins this battle in the long run as EV's get more powerful/lighter motors and batteries can store more electricity per pound???
In another 5 years there won't be an ICE in the world that can compete with the fastest EV's.
Game over ICE morons.
bigez1 - that's why I said "with performance package I assume" - the video you linked showed a "non-PP" E63. I'm referring to the Mercedez Benz-optional performance package much like the Model S has a Performance package, unlike the aftermarket AMGRENNtech shown in the OP's video.
I totally agree. I haven't ever bought an AMG Merc but have certainly shopped for one several times (once ended up with a Porsche 911, once with a Corvette Z06 and once ended up with a Model S).
I think there are plenty of car fanatics on this board who are in love with their Model S and have loved ICE cars all their lives. I am certainly one of those.
That's the amazing thing about the Tesla brand. There are also a lot of Leaf, plug-in Prius, Hybrid shoppers here. What an interesting mix.
That excitement about ICE, suspension, visualization, wind management, tire and all the other tech components transfers just as easily to battery and electric motor tech.
When Tesla makes (assuming here) a P120 with 4 wheel drive, I dont think there will be anything to catch it, that includes a Porsche 911 Turbo S and GTR. Bet we will see them on the road in 3 years.
All done in silence ...
I wonder if the Tesla supercar will be AWD?
It all comes down to battery power density. If we used 60C RC Li-ion batteries instead of Panasonic high energy density ones 85kWh would give you 5.1MW of power (but battery would weight a lot more). There are some lab results using nanotechs that give way over 100C currents (I believe highest I have seen was 1000C+) but those were not full batteries.
I have no idea of Panasonic 4.0Ah battery power density might be. I think that is the one that could give you close to that 120kWh battery packaged at same battery pack (85/3.1 = x/4.0 : x ~= 110), but if the power density doesn't increase at the same time you will not get any more out of it than you would get from 85kWh battery.
Looking at he color of MS, it's clearly not a sig performance model. Does anyone know if this was a performance MS or regular MS? Regardless of the model, that's the car we drive daily - not a artificial rigged car.
Wouldn't surprise me if we se a sub-3-sec 0-60 production car from TM within five years. It is too easy to do with current tech (just stick the Model X front motor in a Model S, and leave the back one as is, or maybe even beef up the inverter even more) and too tempting not to.
Cricket that thing has nearly 700 horsepower and it barely won
Cricket = Crickey. I hate spell correcting crap
Wait for the Model R. The GenIII Roadster.
Followed by Model RF The GenIII Really Fast.
I don't get this obsession with 0-60 times. I guess this is what Tesla's do very well at. But remember that the roadster was slow around the track on all tracks we have certified times for:
May be the Model S will be faster, but the best time we currently have around Laguna Seca is around 1:51, which isn't exactly super fast these days.
I really want Tesla to fix this track performance problem because all of my European car buddies keep pointing out that Tesla is the modern American car company: really fast in a drag race, but terrible on a track. And, no, slalom times don't count.
Give us a Nurburgring lap time! The current EV production record holder is an e-tronic Audi R8 with 8minutes and 9 seconds. This is a terrible time for the price: the current 911 s (non-turbo!) lapped it at 7 minutes and 38 seconds.
Nurburgring time depends quite a bit about driver too: Sabine Schmitz drove a 10 minutes 8 seconds time with Ford Transit.
Model S is not a sport car. It doesn't even try to be one. It's just fast premium family sedan.
Trying to get a good track time with it would be a bit like trying to get good track time with Rolls Royce Silver Shadow, car is just too heavy for race tracks.
^The M5 has good track times as does the ugly as sin Panamera Turbo (which also has a faster 0-60). And the Roadster, which is a sports car, has poor track times (see link above). In fact, the Model S has faster Laguna Secca track times than the Roadster: see the REFULE results, http://www.refuelraces.com.
To make these comparisons fair, MS should have an all-wheel drive version with a second electric motor driving the front wheels. A nice round 800 bhp would be good enough. Even add $25k...
I'm guessing 0-60 in 3.5, 1/4 mile in 10.5
That will stop the EV / ICE comparisons forever.
P.S. - We can save a bit of money on rear-view mirrors as we won't need to see what's behind us... everything is...
> That will stop the EV / ICE comparisons forever.
Well, it would help for some production EV to get a decent laptime. The Nurburgring may be a stretch given its length, but it is the gold standard for a reason. But a good time at Laguna Secca would be a start (it is a slow short track).
These 0 to 60 times are hiding a lot of sins, as they do for other cars. For example, the 911 turbo has a great 0 to 60 time (faster than the Model S), but after a bit it is kind of boring. I much prefer naturally aspirated 911s. They be slower in a straight line, but they are a lot more fun to drive around in. EVs have a natural advantage over turbos in that the throttle response remains more consistent (no lag), although modern multiple turbo implementations are improving the situation.
Just putting 4 wheel drive on the MS would probably lop at least .5 sec off 0-30 time and probably more like 0.7sec. The performance advantage will be maintained from then on. This would not need to draw more max. power from the battery because it is just providing more traction. So a MS with 3.3 to 3.5 sec to 60 and 100 in 8.8 to 9.0 is on the cards with no further battery work.? IMHO.
It's just like in a good old western movie where everybody wants to challenge the quickest gunsliger (sp?) in town. They will keep coming with all sorts of tricks to beat the MS.
I have a 2011 E63 AMG (last of 6.2L naturally aspirated - 2012 is 5.5L turbo) that has been modified by RENNtech. I have driven this car daily for almost two years until I got my P85 five weeks ago. I haven't done a side by side drag race like in the video, but can report first hand that E63 AMG does not throw me back in the seat anywhere near the way my P85 Model S does! There is no comparison here.
The E63 does have its advantages - more refined 'fit n finish', the way the hood and doors open and close like a Swiss bank vault, etc etc, but I've had no desire to drive it since I took delivery of the Tesla; only exception was last week I drove while the Tesla was at Technicar in W Palm Beach getting window tinting and custom radar detector/laser interceptors installed- they did a great job and integrated the display into the rear view mirror, but that's for another thread - hope to get pics on teslamotorsclub forum soon!
Suffice it to say I am transferring my Sirius sat radio subscription over from the E63 to the Tesla and trying to figure out what to do with the Mercedes!
Yes, there are ways to make many fast ICE cars, stupid FAST! However, be that as it may, unless you have an unlimited supply of free gasoline (or money), owning a highly modified fast ICE car is almost useless for daily commiuting.
Trust me, if I was very wealthy, I would love to own a Pagani Huayra for short weekend drives. However, dollar for dollar, in the REAL-WORLD, nothing can beat riding down the 405 FRW at 85 MPH in the carpool lane in rush-hour traffic, blasting past eveyone else, cranking "Don't Look Back" by Boston, with perfect digital clarity in a silent moving sound-stage, while I glance over at the massive 17" touch-screen at breaking news, and up-to-the minuet real-time traffic, with the ability to occasionally rip from 85 MPH to 115 MPH and back, in nothing flat, to get around slow moving carpool traffic. Life on the busy freeway doesn't get any better, and NOTHING ELSE on on the planet can do this (not even a $2.2 million dollar Bugatti Veryon).
I don't think that traffic on the 405 will ever be up to the minuet. :)
Thats Right TikiMan. I did not buy this car to drive on a racetrack. It rocks to have hot rodders tip their hats to you after being beaten off the line on the street.
By the way I have a 911S which needs to be in supersport mode and using launch control to equal the MS all the while making a godawful racket.
Does anyone remember who won the race between the steam locomotive (Tom Thumb engine) and the horse?
Like now, it was a race between the old and the new.. But the real race is being held elsewhere..
The Horse, The Steam Engine threw a belt and lost power. But it led to that point though lol!!
Funny factoid about horse-power. James Watt, desiring to sell his rigs to mine owners, set his "one horse-power" measure to do about twice as much work as a real pit pony/horse could manage. The mine owners, thinking they were pulling a fast one on him by getting that extra power, were ready customers ... ;)
Or so I hear.
Good story Brian H, an historic example under promise and over deliver!
These examples of racing ICE cars and beating them (mostly) will stick in peoples minds. I know it did for me, I was tired of the hype of EV under delivery of my expectations. They (non Tesla EV) tried to just lecture me on why I should pay them more for less.
Like James Watt, Elon is playing it just so right..
I crossed paths with an E63 on the way home. Had to work our way around traffic on the freeway, he was in front of me, once he got in the clear he downshifted and gunned it. Took me a second to make my way around other cars, at which point I floored it. He was already about 100 feet in front of me, was probably in his peak torque band, and I was never able to close the gap on him. He was slightly pulling away when I decided I was going as fast as I was comfortable with and slowed down. I have a P85 and have had encounters with a C06 and M5, but the E63 was definitely in a higher league.
I looked up the MB AMG series, and here's a taste:http://www.mercedes-amg.com/engineering.php?lang=eng
Not sure what your point is, unless you are trying to get people more interested in MB offerings.
There are a number of cars that have more horsepower, which is going to make them faster once you are above the speed where traction is limiting acceleration. So what.
- I can't drive over 100mph without getting arrested or killed.
- Off the line, Tesla is nearly impossible to beat because it just goes with no special mode, and the torque continues to pull while regular cars lose time for shifting.
- Short bursts like 40-65mph when freeway merging are just amazing because there is no pause to downshift.
Perhaps you missed the video at the beginning of the forum where the E63 beat the tesla off the line? I have no desire to trade my MS for a MB. I enjoy my car but have no delusions that it is the fastest out there. Purpose of the post was to describe a real-world scenario where I went up against the E63 (the topic of this thread), as opposed to some to some artificial race situation. People need to relax with the pro-Tesla propaganda around here.
@Pbfoot, I agree... but the E63 uses launch control to achieve it's fastest acceleration. Your MS doesn't. You win. :-)
I read that performance pluss might actually shave another 0.5 sec of the model s times? Any truth to this?
Great 0-60 times and a blast while overtaking on the freeway are huge advantages of a Model S. BUT. Now that some German customers have received their Model S cars I would love to see some hot laps around the Nurburgring / Nordschleife.
So far I can only find footage from an old EV parade with a bunch of Tesla Roadsters participating but nothing thrilling to set a benchmark for others to challenge in their P85+
Better yet, I'd like to hear some honest feedback after sustained high speed driving on the Autobahn. How does the car handle a 120 mph cruise with AC on? I'm not specifically referring to range or efficiency, but rather the battery thermal protection limits at a given load.
Performance is not sexy if it requires the burning of fossil fuels.
A 120 mph cruise? It would be short.
Yes, but as long as the car is able to hold the speed (battery load) for as long as it takes to maintain such speed longer than a few minutes without going into thermal protect, that's what matters most. I'm not sure how long the no speed limit stretches of the Autobahn are.