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Already lost 4 miles of rated range…

Already lost 4 miles of rated range…

I'm a satisfied owner of a 2013 Model S P85 - the other day I was going to take a long day trip with iffy charging options so I opt'd for a range charge. Now I have experience with a range charge as I've done it multiple times at various super chargers…and I can stuff 274 miles of rate-range-electrons into the battery.

But the other day I was only able to get 269 miles of rated range into the battery from my HPWC…

have I already lost 5 miles (1.8%) of my battery in the 5 months/7500 miles I've owned the car?

this does not bode well if this is a trend.

anyone have any thoughts - similar experience?

hfcolvin | July 5, 2013

I've never gotten 274 on the 8-9 times I've range charged. 265-269 is more the norm for me. I wouldn't worry about fluctuations in charging numbers. Every once in while I get 245 on a standard charge, but it's usually 242.

AmpedRealtor | July 5, 2013

Also, these are just estimates so they are going to bounce around a little bit.

elguapo | July 5, 2013

Check out volkerize.com to search the numerous threads on this. Consensus is no loss of range, just fluctuations in readings and the fact that you'd have to catch the car right after it hit full charge to see the true max because leakage then kicks in.

tobi_ger | July 5, 2013

dortor:
Those 5 miles could just be intermittent vampire losses and weren't "topped off" by the charger since the threshold wasn't triggered, i.e. it might have just been a timing issue.
I assume the HPWC wasn't charging at the time when you got into your car that day?

tobi_ger | July 5, 2013

Also, based on the battery stats it could indeed be a permanent loss (estimating 10% after ~50K miles). I posted in another thread the Panasonic image for reference earlier today.

skulleyb | July 5, 2013

THe battery when new looses a bit then is supposed to level off for a long time.
So yes you may loose a bit with break in.
Thats what i have read.

I have 4500 miles on my 60 and have went from 191 to 185 on average.
But it does seem to be leveling around 185-188.

hamer | July 5, 2013

When I first got the car, it would charge to between 165 and 170 rated range when I told it to do a maximum range charge, and to between 135 and 145 when I told it to do a standard charge.

About a week ago I got upgraded to firmware 1.5 and the charging window now has a slider (and no standard or maximum range buttons so unless I can find them somewhere the only way to select between the two is on the iPhone app).

The only time I charged to maximum range since it charged to 171 rated miles and I stopped it. When I looked at the slider, it looked like there was still a little capacity beyond the green bar indicating how much was filled.

So I have no idea what is going on but I suspect it has nothing to do with lost capacity and more with how willing the software as to how much it is willing to push the battery.

dortor | July 5, 2013

this was right after "stopping" the HPWC charge - since I was waiting for it to be topped off before I left...so it wasn't vampire - I'll keep an eye on it and see where it goes from here.

defmonk | July 5, 2013

@skullyb

Exactly the same experience with my S60. Simultaneous with the last software update, the "daily" charge limit clearly changed (discussed extensively elsewhere), before it was a bit more than 80% of max capacity and now it's roughly 80%. On the other hand, I note that driving over my daily route the energy consumption seems to have decreased significantly. Before the update, I rarely fell below the rated energy consumption and now it's generally below or equal. I swear my driving style hasn't changed...

AmpedRealtor | July 5, 2013

@ dortor, why don't you look at things this way instead… your P85 is EPA rated at 265 miles. At 274 miles you were getting better than the rating. Even at the reduced 269 miles you are getting better than the rating. So your car is still performing better than what the EPA rating indicates. Why are you unhappy?

I personally don't care if my car starts out with 270+ or even 500+ miles of range - the car, as purchased, is EPA rated to provide 265 miles. As long as I'm getting the 265 miles, I'm getting what was represented at the time of purchase. Anything above that is bonus and not guaranteed or expected.

Theresa | July 5, 2013

I don't have the latest 4.5 software yet but my charge for range goes to 274 but if I don't drive right away it will go down to about 265 before the charger turns back on. So I always make sure to not fully complete a range charge until right before I plan to leave.

bobbiebrowning | July 5, 2013

We have noticed a steady degradation in the charge since delivery of our 85 Model S on March 28th. The Standard Charge was initially at 245; we are now down to 238 with each full standard charge. I have sent an inquiry to Tesla and awaiting their response.

tobi_ger | July 5, 2013

bobbiebrowning
Just to check: have you received an upgrade during that time to 4.5.x and - if that's the case - did the charge change after that noticeably? Or was it consistently, slowly decreasing till now?

SCCRENDO.Ca.US | July 5, 2013

85 model S 6000 miles. Before the update got 270 ideal miles on standard charge. After update have it on the last notch before max and switched reading to rated miles. Get a consistent 232 miles but could drop 5 miles with vampire loss depending on what time charging ended.

wheatcraft | July 5, 2013

Just because your rated range says 274, miles, this doesn't mean you will get it, even if you drive the 308 Wh rate. There is measurement error in the system that is unavoidable. The actual measurement is a voltage difference across the battery pack terminals. This voltage difference is then turned into a charge (kWh) by an equation that was developed using measured correlation between voltage differences and kWh used. So here are the steps of uncertainty:

1. On a given day, your battery may accept more or less charge, depending on temperature and other variables.
2. There is measurement error in the process of measuring the voltage drop across the battery
3. Potential error or drift in the empirical equation that calculates energy storage (kWh) from voltage drop - the equation was developed from measured data that was subject to specific temperature conditions which may not be the same.
4. Further potential error in calculating Rated Range Miles from energy storage.

The bottom line is not to get too worried about, well, let's say about plus or minus 5% of the maximum rated range. So, about +/- 15 miles. Differences of less than this are most likely not "real", but just due to the measurement/conversion process.

tobi_ger | July 5, 2013

Thanks wheatcraft, great information.

dortor | July 5, 2013

@wheatcraft - super info - thanks!

justineet | July 5, 2013

@Dortor...no worries, the best guide on this issue is the Roadsters...after 5 years those with less than 100k which are the vast majority still have about 90% of their capacity.....and those who have driven over 100K have around 80% of their capacity!!

bent | July 5, 2013

I used to think I had lost several percent on my Roadster after just half a year, but, now it's summer again and I'm back up to just 2km below what I saw last summer (299 vs 301 or thereabouts in standard mode). I figure it was just the cold Norwegian winter that caused the battery to read a little lower a couple months back.

I've stopped worrying about it. :-)

ZoomZoom | July 15, 2013

I own a 2013 Model S and have also become concerned with the reported loss of range in my 40kwh version. When I picked up the car on 5/19/13 at the factory, it had 144 rated miles of range. For the first few weeks I would wake up in the morning and have 142 - 144 rated miles available. Then a few weeks later 140 - 142. Now I am getting 138 - 140. While it is somewhat comforting to know a loss of 6 miles of rated range falls within 5% of 144, I am becoming concerned with the trend. I have a total of 1,800 miles on the car and drive an average of 20 - 25 miles a day with an occasional day of 80 - 100 miles.

jay.kropp | July 15, 2013

I have no evidence to back this up but in the odometer is the average kw/h used by the lifetime of the vehicle. For instance, mine is at 314 kw/h. I think rated range is based on your driving habits. As you kw/hr gradually go up your rated range goes down. Isn't rated range based on your average kw/hr?

Mathew98 | July 15, 2013

@ZoomZoom -

If you charge your car at 7PM in the evening after a 25 miles usage then it would finish charging by 8:30PM. After which the onboard electronic will slowly drain the range until you drive the car the next morning. That might explain the loss of range you mentioned.

The ideal charging time is to set it to the same time each day and have the car stop charging an hour before you use it each day.

You can schedule a preset charging time every day - say starting at 3AM (ends around 5AM) and drive to work at 6AM.

Then you can compare the range at the same time each day for an apple to apple comparison.

ZoomZoom | July 15, 2013

Already done, I start charging at 2am and head to the gym at 5am. I believe I am comparing apples to apples...

Mathew98 | July 15, 2013

@ZoomZoom - Did you noticed the drop before or after v4.5 upgrade?

Roamer@AZ USA | July 15, 2013

Just the software trying to estimate based on your usage patterns what you have. I don't worry much about the numbers. In Arizona airconditioning usage can bounce it all around.

That and lead foot wives can change the number.........

derek | July 15, 2013

@wheatcraft I don't agree with your reasoning above. You cite measurement error, daily temperature fluctuations, drift, etc. So if you were right, we'd expect to see ups and downs. Wouldn't somebody in this thread have chimed-in with numbers that were increasing?

But what we see are just downs and no ups.

I'm not overly concerned, because I understand my battery will age a little. But I'm taking note of it.

I started with 244 miles on the dial in March, and now get about 237.

DanielR | July 15, 2013

I have a 60kwh battery pack and I have seen a slow, consistent downward trend in my rated miles after a standard charge. I have 7000 miles on the car, I have software v4.5, and I have made it a point to check the numbers within 30 minutes of charge completion. When the car was new, I was getting 190 miles. Now I am getting 179. A "loss" of 11 miles in four months. I agree with ZoomZoom, I don't like the trend.
A couple questions I am going to ask Tesla:
- Does supercharging use--over time--knock down the rated range?
- Does plugging the car in every night, reduce the amount of battery cycles over time and therefore reduce range? In other words, is it better for battery life not to charge the car every night if one does not foresee a need for those miles the next fay?

DanielR | July 15, 2013

"day", not fay.

redders | July 15, 2013

Just following up on the earlier question. Is the rated range individually calculated? So if I'm driving at 370 w/m, then I have less range than someone at 300?

elguapo | July 15, 2013

Tesla has said rated range has nothing to do with your driving habits. The only thing calculating off of driving habits is the info in the energy app that shows a projected range. Both rated and ideal ranges are fixed formulas, per Tesla.

Brian H | July 15, 2013

A recent software release adjusted the charge/mileage algorithm. You probably didn't lose any real world range, just see a different calc in the display.

AmpedRealtor | July 15, 2013

+1 elguapo, the fullness of your "tank" has nothing to do with the kind of mileage that you get.

Mathew98 | July 16, 2013

V4.5 upgrade has a default of 90% charge whereas previous versions has a default of 92% charge.

In previous threads, other owners have performed max charge comparisons vs previous readings instead.

My range charge for MS60 fluctuates from 182 - 188 depending on when I use the car vs. when it finished charging. I get higher reading right after the charging process is completed. If I use the car a few hours after charging is completed then I get the lower figure.

I use the MS60 as a daily commuter. the 180+ range is more than sufficient for my daily 50 miles round trips. The lowest miles remaining was about 80 after a full day of running errands in other towns. I can easily use up 5 - 10 miles just blasting the AC and sitting in city traffic...

ZoomZoom | July 16, 2013

I've not noticed a correlation between software updates (my car has rec'd 2 updates since I received it) and the range loss I've experienced. This morning my car indicated 138 miles after fully charging. I estimate the car finished charging about 20-30 minutes before I got in it to leave the house. I am really hoping the loss I am experiencing does not get any worse. A 4.2% loss of range in two months is not a good trend...

ZoomZoom | July 16, 2013

@DanielR
Thanks for your post and I look forward to any feedback Tesla may provide to you. According to my calculations, you have lost 11 miles of the 190 you started with 4 months ago, a loss of 5.8%. If this experience is common, I am certainly concerned with the trend. I hope Tesla is similarly concerned.

NKYTA | July 16, 2013

@Mathew
"V4.5 upgrade has a default of 90% charge whereas previous versions has a default of 92% charge."

I had heard a previous report that previous versions had a default of 93% charge - that seems to fit well with my experience.

@ZoomZoom, please keep an eye on it and report back if you see anything further.

A report just came out about the Roadster battery life being under-reported.
http://www.greencarreports.com/news/1085580_battery-life-in-tesla-roadst...

PaceyWhitter | July 16, 2013

I have also read that charging off of a 15A circuit (or just lowering the amperage on your standard plug) helps to "recover" lost charge. Basically sometimes the car is thinking the battery is full prematurely.

ramtaz | July 16, 2013

My "40kWh" has 2100 miles, rated range at delivery 147.May 29.
rated range at home 142 , new rated range 138.

Brian H | July 16, 2013

ramtaz;
The 'rated' now varies with where you put the slider.

ZoomZoom | July 16, 2013

As a "40kWh" owner, coming at this issue from another perspective has made me feel better. I noted Tesla is currently advertizing the 60kWh battery with an EPA range of 208 miles. If I multiply 208 x 40/60 I get 138 miles or about what my car shows in the morning. Based on this analysis, I am presently getting the EPA rated range I should with my software limited 40kWh battery. I will keep an eye on this and report to the forum if things change for the worse...

fluxemag | September 2, 2013

Just thought I'd chime in. I also am now getting 137 miles rated range after initially getting 144. It's been a gradual decrease over the last 3+ months and 3800 miles. And no BrianH, "40kWh" cars don't have a slider. I also charge my car with scheduled charging so it's finished a few minutes before I leave for work. Yesterday I ran it down to 15 miles remaining and then did a full recharge. Still 137. It has nothing to do with my driving habits, as my lifetime Wh/mi continues to decline from more sensible driving. The last thing I'll note is I take the same 30 mile RT route to work and back each day. Even though my Wh/mi usage is lower, I pull into the lot with 117 remaining instead of 122. I think what I need to do is some actual mileage logs from full charge to almost empty to see if the range is lying to me.

AmpedRealtor | September 2, 2013

To those who are experiencing perceived range loss - do you charge to the default 90% setting every time, or do you tend to maintain a lower state of charge?

My car is a week old and I've taken some advice to heart from the Teslamotorsclub forum. Prior to owning the vehicle, Tesla's recommendations seemed fine. But now that I have officially made the investment, my priorities have shifted into maximizing and preserving battery life when possible.

I have been keeping my battery at a 50% state of charge when it is plugged in my garage. Before leaving for work (60 miles round trip), I add another 40-60 miles of range before leaving. I have an HPWC so the additional range is added within an hour. This way I'm using the battery in the 40%-70% capacity range and am staying away from the extremes on either side. What I am doing may be completely useless, I don't know, but in general it seems like good advice to stay away from the extremes except on those rare occasions when you need the range.

I've also read in that thread that it's best to charge to your highest needed capacity just before you drive off. This way your battery stays at a higher state of charge for a shorter period of time. Keeping your battery at a high state of charge for extended periods may do more harm than good, but nobody really knows at this point. Tesla's guidance is a "one size fits all" recommendation, but many of us would appreciate something more granular.

solarpowered | September 3, 2013

I observed my UMC was off while plugged in, then I heard some loud solenoid clicks and saw the UMC start charging again by itself. My hypothesis is that when plugged in, the range has to endure some vampire losses before it "tops off" and starts charging again. 40 kWH cars set to 40 amps can charge pretty quickly. It may be the different ranges that the 40 kWH owners are seeing after plugging in could be due to charging being completed several hours before they get to their cars? Try timing your charge so it ends about 30 minutes before you need to drive your car and see if your rated miles go up.
After seeing my range vary from 142 miles to 139 miles, I tried to delay the charging so it completed in the morning & I got 142 miles again. If anyone tries this, please report your results.

nickjhowe | September 3, 2013

I've had my car eight months, plugged in every day on a NEMA 14-50. 5000 miles so far.

1st day I charged it I got 242 miles. That was with the old 'normal' charge - c. 93% of capacity.

With the new software it is set to 90%. On Sunday I charged it up and got 233.

233 / 0.90 * 0.93 = (drum roll...) 241 which is a 0.4% loss compared to 242

(And that assumes the old normal charge was in fact 93%.)

At this rate I'll lose a grand total of 15 miles of range over 10 years. I'd be happy with that.

Cindy I II III | September 3, 2013

My 85 is less than a week old, it only charges to 234 for a standard charge.

If I remember correctly from one of Elon's interviews, he said that ~60% charged state is the preferred state, which makes max 265 to be 159

nickjhowe | September 3, 2013

@Cindy - Elon said that for long term storage of the battery, low temperatures and a mid-level state of charge were best. That does not apply to daily charging.

Brian H | September 3, 2013

nickj;
+1

ramtaz | September 3, 2013

My "40 wKh " has 4000 miles, now rated range is 134, 10 minutes after charging in the morning.