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Esoteric EV ramblings.

Esoteric EV ramblings.

Very msc. EV topics. Freewheelling, where decorum to "stay on topic" is not so critical.

searcher | May 17, 2011

@Brianh, Or how would this sound like as a stratgey tweak. Just steady on with the higher end stuff building the quality in etc. just as originally planned but then if this DBM battery or whatever it's called proves out then go "firstest with the mostest and bestest" on the low end and in time the quality at the top end will gradually pull up value and sales at the low end for the long run. Don't know where this would leave the "Bluestar" unless just tweaked "Bluestar" and let it be the lowend working persons car.

Really a chess game and will be real interesting to see how it all plays out.

But as stated above the other players are not slouches either[at least some of them}. I have a feeling some are going in at lowend with huge production and in some cases they will be good cars. Sounds like a fun challange here for Tesla to me simply, is my flexibility, responsiveness to fluidity in tech advances, better than my competition.

Brian H | May 18, 2011

But it's not his. As he pointed out, there are much easier ways to make a few million than to start a new automobile company and a space launch company.

Vawlkus | May 18, 2011

Don't forget that Tesla already has agreements with other larger companies like Diamala and Toyota to provide powertrains, batteries, even car redesigns.

Elon isn't out to just make Tesla the #1 BEV company, he's trying to push the whole world towards EVs any way he can.

searcher | May 18, 2011

Thanks for the input folks. So it's not quite that egocentric with Musk, the fun and challenge is to get the whole planet moving in the way he is moving. Is that correct?

I had it figured more like a team competition type thing was where the fun and challenge came in, as well as the bottom line.

@BrianH, Please a littele more clarification on the statement "But it's not his". Sorry, didn't quite understand this.

Do you both feel that if a game changer battery came along Tesla might tweak overall strategy a bit and let the "Bluestar" become the working folks car. Maybe series could be called "Bluecollar",ha. What do you think of idea to plan for the lowend version to be higher off ground and thus a more global vehicle. Due to obvious differences in roads in varius parts of the planet.

Once again "input" much appreciated.

searcher | May 18, 2011

@Ramon123, What's the latest scoop on the DBM Energy battery?

searcher | May 18, 2011

On the "Whitehouse" call think I will suggest the prseident just have a peek at the Tesla website and maybe get someone in Transportation dept to monitor it and keep him informed. I actually think he will be intrigued. Mentions the Chevy's occasionly but wonder if he even knows about Tesla.

On the BBC call think I will call with my "pitch" and politely bring up producing a new show on Telsa. I will let you know if I get the "brush off" or even harsher response,ha.

searcher | May 20, 2011

When several companies get EV's on the road will the charging locations be such that they serve all different brands of cars?

VolkerP | May 20, 2011

GM = Government Motors
Since the bailout, the govt owns a part of that car manufacturer so it is only sensible to look after your assets :-). Plus: GM employees and families are a substantial number of voters.
If the DOE loan to Tesla is not paid back within certain time, only then DOE will get stock in Tesla.

I think Tesla running a store in D.C. will help attracting attention far more than calling the switch board. But go ahead, it's worth a shot.

searcher | May 24, 2011

Sorry to be so uninformed. It's just so much easier and quicker to be informed here, probably much to the chagrin of my fellow posters. Was wondering what the price ranges run on the sytems that people are using to charge their Ev's off their home systems now?

Again, question: With various companies junping into the EV market will they not have to first get together and decicde on universal charging setups for various away from home charging stations or is this mote point and they will be all the same anyway?

Appreciate you posters who take time to explain this elementary stuff to me.

Timo, did you see my post about considering turning the "Bluestar" series into the "Bluecollar",ha. 15k series and making them highr off the ground for various global rough terrains. Long time or formerly was a Volvo strategy to accomodate global market. Worked well in third world countries, the "Outback" etc, etc. Not to mention Sweden itself.

Brian H | May 24, 2011

Heh. Searcher, "mote" almost works there (small, tiny particle) but it's not an adjective, just a noun. You want "moot", which is an old Anglo Saxon word, very interesting origins. A meeting of elders in which a vote is taken about a question, so to say something is "moot" originally meant postponed for adjudication. Now means unimportant or unresolvable.

In Australia, it's a slang term for the orifice to the primary female sex organs. ;) ;PPpp

landon.bruno | May 24, 2011

Is it a thread for pulling legs….or having fun? I don’t think that there is any valid discussion going on. 250 miles per gallon I really can’t believe it. Which model is it?

Timo | May 24, 2011

Don't know which message you are answering to, but 250mpg is what you get if you count EV energy usage and and convert it to energy content of gasoline. Approximately that. Those EPA mpge "miles per gallon equivalent" -numbers are bad approximations that do not represent real energy usage because they lack the count of well to wheel energy usage of actual ICE car.

VolkerP | May 25, 2011

searcher,

car makers came together to standardize for a common charging interface before. They did not design the best, but the cheapest interface. The result is called SAE J1772 and is suitable for North America and Japan (where three phase electric power is rarely used) and EVs with low capacity battery (only
up to 32A, later 80A)

A camel is a horse designed by a committee.

Further standards are proposed to overcome these limitations, but are not compatible. Looks like the early ages of personal computing to me.

searcher | May 25, 2011

Thanks for the input. Wasn't thinking in golbal trems I am afraid. Guess there would be different standardizations for different areas of the globe ar could this be bipassed? Suppose not. BrianH glad to see you are in top form,ha.

searcher | May 26, 2011

Timo, This is kind of carry over from the NASA converation. Figure we could momentarily wonder off topic a bit withoutout too many prompts.

Wanted to say that I agree with you wholeheartedly on the motivation thing and what we could accomplish. The diety sure didn't intend for us to throw up our hands and say "why try" in fact we are given command "Occupy until I come". I think the Tesla cars and what is trying to be accomplished here are perfect examples off this unless some very good theologian says I am missing point here.

One of my things that I have always wanted to see is a cure or preventive for cancers{plural because so many varieties}. Dedicated good scietest have been working soo long on this. Just hope they have the unction to "keep on keeping on". My uniformed opinion here is that the victory will be found in the "arena of the cell". so lets hope more people like Elon Musk who knows how to get things done will come forward in this area to. And if there are "bad spples" in the "big pharma" "big medicine" area they will be found out and extracated.
As far as beliefs without foundations. Well your own expressions express hope for better things for civilization. This to me did not come out of thin air but your heart and logical mind. To me that is a foundation. You can not visibly show me what such a hope looks like as it has no physical, visable shape or anything like that. Also consider absolutes in the physical laws that I now expect you may make your living with every day. So organized and pristine. Also in the knowledge you have of how your body works,again organized beyond words. And to,consider the natural beauty in your native Finland. And when you just consider all the organization and beauty around you. I don't know how anyone can consider this as just an impersonal, no particular good motive, just a happenstance thing that we happened to get caught in.

Think I have pointed this out before but the largest number of "believers" in the scientific community are astronomers and this
because I believe they have a better idea of the sweep of the whole thing.

Know I am now doing what I asked you to lets not debate.
Sorry for not playing fair here but just had to add one more thing. I believe when Timo was born he was created an immortal being to live forever in one place or another. Not a robot but an immortal being free to make his own choice otherwise his choice would not be one of volitional love but a coereced, robotic love. Kindest regards, searcher

Ramon123 | May 29, 2011

As to the continuing story of DBM-Energy batteries, I have alerts posted but not much news forthcoming. If I were an EV automaker, I would certainly be in close touch with that company. I have to assume that they are in talks with many in the automotive world.
DBM-Energy has no desire to get into the car business.
There are so many promising strategies for new lithium battery
concoctions that it seems obvious to me that at least one of them
will go commercial and result in a big advance in battery
technology. However, right now batteries are good enough in terms of their performance (energy capacity, recharge rates) to
compete succesfully with ICEs on that basis. The big obstacle is
still battery prices. And the only way those will get reduced are
by 1) finding cheaper ways to build them (manufacturing techniques)
or 2) find cheaper components or 3) find a recipe that yields
more per power cell, at the same or lower cost. Or any combination thereof. Of course, a battery that lasts three times longer, which supposedly the DBM does, represents a much cheaper battery, on a lifetime basis, but it's the initial cost that's the obstacle. .

searcher | June 1, 2011

So Ramon, The figures I picked up somewhere on the site of a fouteen hundred dollar,six minute charge, thirty year life may have been, shall we say, overly optimistic. The slogan given the potentials and the things that have to be overcome to get to a 15k good commuter car in possibly five years apparently needs to be "quick like a bunny" if this "bird is going to fly". Slow and steady "aint going to get it" I don't believe if in fact the potential is there it all goes back
to elements of Timos discussions of motivation.

This same "quick like a bunny" concept needs to extend across brand standardized charging stations. The various companies diving in will make it much easier on everybody if they can come up with quick, good, well publicized, standardized charging away from home for all brands otherwise they seemingly will be getting the "cart before the horse" and just be a big cumbersome mess that will interfer with EV development period. Of couse when I am talking standarization I am taking into account the current different international elecrical set ups.

I use to commute sixty miles round trip each day and I know if I was still doing so I would be "chomping at the bits" to get a hold of a little 15k EV commuter and then they could take all the time they wanted to on develping the other stuff {luxury, etc}. I still say keep the name "Bluestar" but turn it into a little "blue collar" run around and sales will go out the roof.

Hope the "War Eagles" are on the way. Read in the alumni magazine they already have a car and know they will eat all this stuff up. I saw picture of their car. Have Profs name, plan on calling him Thursday and turn he and his students on to this site. Of course they may be already here. Will discuss my particular thing and you all know what that concerns with the prof offsite and get his input. Sure he will tell me what you all have already but were talking about Auburn here folks, USA National Football Champs.

Brian H | June 26, 2011

Getcher Flying motorcycle here!

http://www.gizmag.com/hoverbike/18813/

A "working bike", for military and private use. Expected to cost $40K for the first handmade models.

Brian H | July 8, 2011
searcher | August 2, 2011

Hi gang, hope everthing well with everybody. All good here haven't been keeping up with things on site recently.
BrianH,In reference to motorcylcle thing above , google up John Myers, he worked on our periphial equipment in the data processing dept. Knew this guy well. All the accolades on the goole sites are true. One of the finest human beings I have been blessed to know. Wish they would make a movie about mim Peter Fonda would be excellent to play him.

Been reflecting some on strategies of EV makers lately and think somebody needs to come quick with small commuter type EV or maybe Tesla intergrate this quickly into their overall plan. As I said above I used to commute sixty plus miles per day roundtrip and I would have love to have had my hands on a little commuter.Mentioned previously only party in jest that Tesla needs to very quickly develop a "Bluecollar" car instead of a "Bluestar" of course there would be tons of white collars clamoring for this to.

BrianH, Think it was you a good while back that had a picture of EV under carport thing with solar panel covering. Does this much solar paneling take care of small commuter for overnight charge. Of couse I realise alternative charging would be available to if weather didn't cooperate. We kind of discussed this concept at one point in days gone by. Think thin concept would be more than cool for Tesla or anybody with EV.

As said previously to. Know thare has got to be mass information, and installation of away from home charging as EV makers will , in my opinion, be getting the "cart before the horse" as I belive many people who could esily afford EV this would be info thing that would have to be overcome in their mind as they have directly expressesed this to me. Power companies could get in on this mass info thing to.

Everybody stay cool. Searcher

Brian H | August 3, 2011

Overnight charging with a solar panel is a non-starter. The Moon isn't bright enough.

Vawlkus | August 4, 2011

Depends Brian. If there's a battery attached to that solar array, then bing, you charge that during the day and then use the battery to charge your car at night.

Either that, or you need to dump power to the grid during the day (when electricity is expensive) and then buy it back at night (when it's cheap).

Brian H | August 4, 2011

Yeah, I know. But I couldn't resist.

searcher | August 4, 2011

BrianH, Thousands of comedians out of work and youre trying to be a commedian, shame, shame. Oh Brian you do know what a comodeodian is don't you?

Now back to original comment. I know there are numerous examples on here of people charging overnight off large whole house solar systems which is very cool. What I had reference to, was the carport looking structure enough to actually charge an EV overnight. Working off the same princples that the large whole house solar systems work off. Trying to get at the minimum size such solar paneling would have to be to charge EV overnight. This might be helpful for people wanting to charge like this but don't want to invest in huge whole home solar system. So if you know put aside and resist your "wise guy" proclivities and answer the darn question. THKYUVERMUCH TCB Have a funny day as I expect they all are to you. But that's a good thing. With allnonrespect,ha. Searcher

Brian H | August 5, 2011

I still say the Moon isn't bright enough. >:(

:p

searcher | August 6, 2011

BrianH, Of course your right buddy, the moon probably isn't bright enough. To bad ,huh.

Everybody, I haven't been on the site for awhile and it seems poor BrianH has turned into a Lunar Tune. Must have been all his Looney Tune jokes. I hope he recovers soon.

Now I know the question I asked above about the carport solar panel set up may have been rather uninformed , if so, please excuse my navivete {I know this word coreectly spelled will be a help to poor Brian}. So can an arrangement like this chrage an EV overnight? And how big of solar panel would be likely range in size to charge a small commuter type EV.

Now back to poor Brian. Brian why dont you consult with the coyote of "Roadrunner" fame and devise a space ship that would carry all your necessary amenities for a short stay on in advance and then get the coyote to devise a couple of devices you could strap on your backs and go to the moon. Be sure not to carry the roadrunner along as this would be a teriible distraction as you might need to consult with the coyote on technical issues such as getting back etc. I am sure while you two were there the moon would be plenty bright. Bon Voyage Brave Space Travelers.

Brian H | August 6, 2011

Searcher, as long as you persist in asking about "solar" "charge" and "overnight" in the same sentence, this is all the answer you will get. There's no sol at night, so no charging.
If you want to charge up a storage bank during the day, or feed equivalent power into the grid and buy the same back at night, then there are some specifics to consider.

searcher | August 6, 2011

Brian, Thanks so much for the great information that there are no solar rays at night. Oh how enlightened I feel.

I have a feeling that you knew what I was talking about all the time as I mentioned similar to the charging done off large whole house charging systems. But that's OK I am fully aware of your comedic tendencies. Were you the class clown?

Now if you are ready we will address charging up to storage bank in day or the other option you mentioned. Can this be done with as small a setup as the picture of the carport looking arrangement I think you possibly posted quite awhile back. Not sure if you posted this picture or not but haven't been able to locate it. Dont even remeber what forum or thread it was under.

I guess this means the "Brave New Voyage" with you and the coyte{sp?] is out. Gee I was kind of looking forward to that, along with the "Roadrunner" of course, "Beep, Beep".

VolkerP | August 6, 2011

hello you two lonesome,

won't let this become a private thread for searcher and brian. No gain for humanity if you two duel it out alone. So back to the question.1
As a small commuter EV I would classify something that you take to town and back (50 miles roundtrip) and it is a small & lightweight car. Perhaps Nissan Leaf class. So we have e.g. 200 Wh per mile consumption, resulting in 10kWh energy that must be provided to the car. There are some losses, lets say 90% wall-to-car efficiency and 80% for the amentioned storage bank with charging electronics and self-discharge losses in the storage bank. This increases daily energy need to ~14kWh.

Now I use the U.S. insulation map to look up the insolation level for a car port roof pointing due south and tilted to latitude. Most of U.S. receive at least 5Wh per square meter and day in the annual average. So the sun energy from 3 square meters exceeds our daily need of 14kWh. But current solar panels are only 20% efficient, so we need 5 times that area, giving a 3kW solar array of 15 square meters, that's 9 by 18 feet. This will nicely fit onto a car port.

Now here are the problems. The sun shines stronger in summer than in winter. I think Brian, we can agree on this. What to do:
* go with a larger module area (3->4.5kW) and a storage bank that can buffer several cloudy days, e.g. 100kWh.
* When there is snow on the car port roof, you better hose it away since it will start slipping down only at temperatures around 0°C on a sunny winter day.
* increase the roof tilt to earn more in winter and less in summer (when excesses are produced anyway). Plus, the snow starts slipping more easily.

In total, this setup will cost roughly 20 grand. Could discuss the details now but rather long post already.

Volker

searcher | August 6, 2011

Volker, Thanks for the information and the time it likely took you to come up with it. Now a subjective question for you. Provided person lived in area where snow and ice not a factor. Neat setup or no. Guess would take to long to recoup cost whichever way you slice it. Wish we could find out who had this setup and get some of their input.

Don't worry about Brian and I we are cool. Brian brings a lot of laughter and wit to this site. Wouldn't be the same without ole BrianH. Was kind of dissappointed about canceled space voyage though.

Have you send the T-shirt where the coyote has the roadrunner by the neck and is saying "Beep, Beep, Heck" except the T-shirt didn't say heck.

VolkerP | August 7, 2011

searcher,

no snow and ice is better. But what are intentions of going solar?
* never, ever pay again for gasoline? You just need an EV, no PV.
* produce your own energy? Check out a grid connected PV system to power house and vehicle. Done by roadster owner Dr Rob Wilder
http://www.wildershares.com/solar.php
* energy autonomy? that's the most expensive variant and only makes sense to me if you are off-grid. Since your setup includes commuting, I assume the electric grid is there.

V.

searcher | August 8, 2011

Thanks for the input very much Volker. This is truly an interesting facet to the whole EV picture. Hope the cost scale is such that enough people worldwide can go this route and really make an impact. Will surely check out the website you furnished. Thanks again.

searcher | September 2, 2011

Well since this is a very generic thread open for a lot of wide ranginging discussion. Lets talk about unemplyment. I very much respect a lot of input I have read off the msc threads on a wide variety of topics. I feel that unemplyment does relate to EV's. Realize that lot of you folks in other countries may be facing similar unemployment problems we are her in USA.

Questions are 1. How did we get here? 2. What do we do to bring unemployment down.

In USA I am so tired of shoddy products such as small appliances, and many other items we buy at our big and small retailers. I am willing to pay more for better products , think it would be easier on my budget in the long run. I would like to see a huge chain of stores where quality products were sold as opposed to stuff not worth really bringing home. These products would not necessarily have to come from the USA entirely. Dont get me wrong their are some exceptions, I buy hightop boots in a large chain store that are much better than some expensive name brand boots. These superior boots are made in China to. We have a clock that has been wonderful, sponsered by the Audabon Society made in China. So not picking on China necessarily. But sadly as I know the Chinese people are an industrious , wonderful, hardworking people and it is not the fault of the mass of Chinese people,but such a high volume of stuff comes from there that is not worth purchasing? Think we have been here before so everybody weigh in and tell me how do we get employment up In the USA and in your respective countries. Is the answer interim protectivism?

Brian H | September 3, 2011

Shop quality, not price. Protectionism protects onshore low quality products over imported ones. It is thus self-defeating.

searcher | September 3, 2011

BriaH, Absolutely see your logic but in my neighborhood the question would be where do I go for quality, the shoddy stuff is everywhere and don't even know of any stores that carry better stuff, even in the malls. So while not really advocating any type protectionism, if its going to be shoddy stuff anyway at least our dollars would stay in our respective countries for the same shoddy stuff. Of course I know this is not a very logical direction. I was just wondering how a consumer based movement in all our respective countries could get the quality up. Maybe start national chains that sold good quality just for the massive amounts of everyday products "so to speak".

Another thing I was wondering, If the countries where all the majority of the shoddy stuff comes from are making big bucks off the USA buying the stuff then what if we or any other country as far as that goes, might turn the tables on them and sell them some better quality than they currently have acess to. Wonder what kind of international economic graph this might create. Tesla EV's being a prime example although I realize Tesla EV's is kind of getting out of the area of everyday massive volume products.

So it all comes down to the old addage concerning who makes the better moustraps. Victor use to make some of the best ones in the USA, last ones I bought were not Victor and made in another country and lousy. So do you see my point about turning the tables and selling said country some good Victor mouse traps along wth some Tesla EV's of course.

I never see any of the 'everyday items" I am speaking off made in Euopean countries, Scandanavia etc. Bet their stuff is very good.

So now that this can of worms has been reopened, lets vet it good.

Still would like to here someone farly well versed in economics comment on countries with high unemplyment. How we got here and how do we get out?

Personally based on nothing academic obviously I am just of the shcool that believes that if the working class {tradesmen, factory workers, the butcher ,baker ,candlestick maker} is optimally employed and has some discretionary spending ability{jingling money} then every thing will be alright with that particular countries economy. I am just hold kind of a "bubble up" rather than a "trickle down" view of economics. But I am open to other points of view as mine may be flawed. Just kind of "gut insticnt" thing with me.

searcher | September 5, 2011

No I am really not an isolationist or permanent protectionist but it seems that things have gotten a little skewed on our balanmce of trade etc with certain countries. This Is simplistic and I know can probably be explained easily by someone well versed in economics and world trade. There is a huge Mercedes plant less than 100 miles from me , Toyota, Honda, Hyndai{sp} facilities all less than 300 miles from me here in the south. So why do these companies actually come to this country and make a quality product and a lot of our american textile manufacturers, and many other types of companies have to go running offshore and pay substandard wages and make a substandard product and ship it back here to sell at actually a price that americans use to pay for a godd made in US product that in many cases had such marginal value it could be repaired at a nominal price and get even more marginal economics out of the product. I know that the southern states are mostly "right to work" states but what about all the other companies that have left the south and other parts of the country. Is it corrupt, overly greedy unreasonable labor unions, or unpatriotic ,ungrateful for the military protection this country affords them, so greedy that they want to make unreasonable profits dealing with communist regimes that have the masses under their thumb. {Incedently if this latter is the case somebody ought to make these companies front page news and boycott the crap out of their cheap shoddy products}. If this is the companies behavior in regards to hunting out cheap labor under iron fisted communist regimes, this is humanly despicable. So to these companies I would try to get them to sit down with the unions and say our country is in trouble and the problem will only get worse if we don't get together, government, labor, and private corporations and work together because nobody gets to have all the pie or even a slice as large as they want {its fattening and unhealthy anyway}. But lets elininate some of the excessive greed and work together to get the company headquarters even as well as their factories back in america and for the uninons to exercise a little common sense since they now know its a global thing and not price theirselves out of the market. Or this globalization thing is going to be just like someone said on this very website when everybody is making sis dollars an hour then we are globalized{ talking abount king masses here}. Not exactly the american dream. Nor should it be any countries dream. So in this diatribe have we isolated some bad players that need some adjustments. 1. The willingness of some of our american comapanies to deal with communist regimes who can hold down their workers wages to peanuts{dispicable and downright cruel}. The communist regimes then taking the profits to gain control of the Western Pacific eventually. 2. Labor unions semmingly unawares of the global economy and pricing our workiers out of jobs. 3. Government just generally not minding the store as just the average american worker is dependng on them to do, and elected government being controlled by special interests be it oil or whatever.

Think this whole world trade thing has gotten badyly out of control from a USA standpoint ,don't know about your particular countries.

Think the segments of corporate america that are playing the games listed above better watch out or they will eventually outsmart themselves and their will be no bottom line as the job picture in america will be so bad and in perhaps in other parts of the world. In short anyone dealing in "slave labor" is making it bad for everybody as well as the slaves. Believe me I live in the very heart of where much "slave labor" took place and we had a terrible war about that. Will it take another one, hope not.

Surely the Marxist-Lenin concepts of class warfare are not right after all.

So lets here some cause and effect and someone educate me on world trade, is it askew or not?

searcher | September 5, 2011

Typos, in parenthtical statement sid king masses meant large masses.

menat to imply companies seeking out communist controlled labor at one point looked like I was still talking about the unions.

And as a postcrpt hope we have not got into a "captilialism gone wild" situation where we are dealing unfairly to everybody with a system diametrically opposed to our own. This is going back to feudalism in my book not the traditional brand of USA captilism where quality productdelivered at a quality cost. Soory I left the energy thugs out of this diatribe. But we are after those dudes are we not.

qwk | September 6, 2011

You can buy any product you desire that is either made in the usa or high quality. The price is usually why people don't.

searcher | September 7, 2011

qwk, As I said before in my neighborhood it is very hard to find good quality products made in USA or or hardly any products at all. I live in a very eclectic neighborhood consisting from poor to wealthy. Well actually maybe some products as recently I priced a pair of hedge clippers made in USA , lifetime warranty for around fiteen dollars went back to get a pair a few weeks later and all gone. Went to large international chain had a name brand pair, made in China, lifetime warranty also for around twenty six dollars didn't purchase them as felt surely would have to be shipping them back before too long. As I have bought a blood pressure monitor from a national chain pharmacy, made in China, lifetime warranty, think I am on about the third monitor in about five years, all cheerfully exchanged with no hassle from the manufacturer or I should say distributor, but this is a drag to be returning stuff so often even if under lifetime warranty. Just please come back and make it in the USA and I will be glad to pay a little more for it and in the case of tvs, shoes, etc get things back to where I can resole and reheel a good pair of shoes for a lot less than original price and get more marginal economics out of my products, like we use to do years ago. Lets get out of this "throw away" chaeper to buy a new one of not the greatest quality rather than fix a good pair of shoes or a tv or many applainces such as refrigerators, washers,and dryers. Just seems like a better road to go to me. Because you know it is soaking up the energy of various kinds to just make throw away stuff. Lets make some good stuff in America and sell it to the countries who have become prosperous through unfair trade with USA and ship them some good stuff. They might just lap it up. I know for one I would definitely like to pay a little more and get a product I wasn't going to be sending back often just so the warranty was honored. I know the Japanese got their act together on quality as expressed by BriaH in one of his post. But we need to get our manufacturing base back into america with quality products and reasonable wages. I know there is plenty of blame to go around for the mess we have got ourselves in with unemployment and high debt to a communist regime,and know we have priced ourselves right out of the market in so many cases so lets just get everybody together and get our manufacturing base back here.Whatever it takes. Its not all labor union's fault, its not all government's fault, and its not all private manufacturing's fault. But it is all some of all their fault. Let's get it together guys. We know we are in a globalized economy. The unions should realize this quite well by now and we know we live in a free country and I can have made what I want to and where I want to in the entire world, so lets think through this and figure out how we can compete and still have our great american standard of living that we have been blessed with.

Once heard we could not fight a war with anyone as we would have nobody to make our uniforms but later found out that years ago a company in the USA was commisioned to make our uniforms so they would always be made in the USA. So you see this kind of underlines the caution we should maybe keep in the back of our minds, albeit in a quirky kind of way.

Think this is a repeat but unerlines importance of our USA manufacturing base. College prof I had was captured by our now friends the Germans in world war two and they were running standard indoctrination on him explaining how we couldn't win etc. He told them thre was no way we could lose because of cigarette lighters, they were puzzled and asked him to explain. And of course at the time our manufacturing base for the war effort was all out. He explained to them that with our manufacturing capability at the time that we could make so many cigarette lighters that we could cover Germany in three feet of cigarette lighters and he would like to see anybody fight a war in three feet of cigaette lighters,LOL. After this they let him alone.

It's election season in America and as you can guess I am actually a man without a party as I am a social conservative and both parties seemingly abandoned this principle, the party that use to uphold this principle is willing to accomodate for votes to win elections and the other party has abandoned them long, long, ago and I know in my heart there are a lot of people in this party that use to be my party and my families party for generations could not help feel some uneasiness as they attend churches, synagouges, and other places of worship. And when they open the scripture , they have just had this accomodation thrust upon them and in their heart they would really like to see it change. And many in the party that has been my party in recent years they must cringe at the willingness to accomodate for votes.

I would like to see a good social conservative candidate, with a balanced fiscal approach come down through both parties "roll the dice" stand on principle's of our "all our yesterdays" and just soak up the disenchanted from both parties and win or lose let the chips fall where they may knowing that they have "fought the good fight".

Know all this may seem very far fetched from EV's but please take my word. It is not.

Timo | September 7, 2011

tl:dr

Timo | September 7, 2011

I can't believe I actually managed to fit a typo in five letter responce: tl;dr.

David70 | September 7, 2011

Well Searcher,

For years Craftsman tool had lifetime warranties. Now the story is that all TVs are manufactured in China, have
a built-in two year life time, and are impossible to get replacement parts. I don't know if that's true, but my most recent TV is about two years old and the tuner on one of the channels doesn't seem to be working. I know the signal from the antenna is okay, since I can receive that channel clearly on my computer.

The question becomes "Do we want to pay more for a TV (or other electronic appliance) to avoid all the devices ending up as waste?"

searcher | September 7, 2011

David70, One of my best friends is a TV repairman in rural Alabama. Only repairman in about three counties I think. I think he would anwer your question with a resounding yes on the parts thing. His work is steadily getting more economically difficult.

My answer to you question is I had rather pay more for something I could have repaired. Bought a Misubishi TV eons ago, paid good price for it. Absolutely best TV I have ever owned. Went out on a limb and had it repaired, about one hundred fifty bucks, six years ago as it had apparently sustained damages in a move from one house to another. That baby is still working like a champ, placed a digital converter on it and picture better than ever. So BrinH was right about the Japenese geting their act together on quality and I do hope the chinese will to. As alredy have said a particular clock we have from China has been flawless and boots I buy at the big store much better than the boutique name brand ones{don't know where they are made}.

But a big consideration in allthis discussion is there will always be demand and products service provided as long as current age goes on but question is how are the profits divided up,as there will always be profits I hope. Will it be divided up fairly between the working people actually providing the labor producing the goods and services, the private owners of the companies, and the government. Right now it's not as I know the wonderful hard working people of China are not getting their fair share of the pie so are our companies that have aborted us and exploiting this cheap labor being repressed by a communist regime lining their corporate pockets with cash and the represive governments lining their pockets. And both these companies and the repressive governments are thus repressing other countries whose worker are expecting and fully desrve a larger portion of the pie.

As a footnote, a famous rdio commentator with a somewhat imflamatory style can tell how some countries know how to steal a whole industry from another country. He says the USA ,for example use to make some good cameras and electronics but says this industry was stolen right out from under them, similar things might have happened to your respective countries. He mentions it was involed with unfair trade practices the best I can recollect. So He explains it quite well but I can't. But if this be the case maybe "The Donald" is right and all countries might do well to heed his warning concerning fair trade.

I still wonder if we couldn't convince the savvy "young lions" of the manufacturing segment that they had better proceed with caution as they might "outsmart" themselves and the bottom line might fade into obsecurity concerning all these unsavory alliances.

David70 | September 7, 2011

Agreed.

I used to think that the only way we could reduce the amount of immigration to this country (i.e. the U.S.) would be to allow the standard of living of workers in other (so called 3rd world) countries to a level approaching ours. Unfortunately it appears the reverse is happening. i.e. the standard of living for workers (and unemployed) here being reduced to that of the 3rd world countries. Hopefully there will be other farsighted entrepreneurs (such as Elon Muak) who are willing to take the chance to reverse the trend.

searcher | September 8, 2011

David70, I guess on reflection the "american dream" is now becoming the "american reality". A few years ago I watched a good bit of Home and Garden TV Channel and these young couples would have to be paying riduculous prices for not so great beginner homes and I would wonder "how can these kids afford these homes as I don't see how they could have climbed up the corporate or technical ladder much at such young ages". Well I guess everything was inflated too much, salaries and every thing else. Now suppose some of the countries I have been fussing about get their act together on quality products then we are facing competitors with a quality product at a relatively low price. Then countries like the USA have really got to put their thinking caps on and figure out something we can export back to them that they really want. I am sure that we do have many such products. Probably will be a lifestyle element involed here the younger consumer, {young adult workers}. So we export cool,huh. Associated with young american lifestyles {for better or worse for said countries}. Going to take some real creativity here.

One bright spot I will illustrate in all this economic morass. Last week by word of mouth I contacted licensed electrician who installed a flourescent light in my carport. Wasn't listed in the yellow pages and all that stuff. Just kind of a free lancer, his company headquarters probably being his truck. Which he had got at a state auction probably at a premium price due to a good size dent on front fender and was a well maintained but older vehicle. He did the installation for about half the price of listed in the yellow pages contractors. Excellent job. A few years ago in the area of the USA I live in there would probably have been no pathway for this young man to get to be a licensed electrician, "but times they are changing". So for goods and services I don't need someone in a foreign country that is not at hand to provide so I guess this is a bright spot in our economy just due to logistical considerations. Incendently this young electrician was asking if there was any land for sale out in my area, so there is some prosperity going on. All is not gloom I suppose. I just really hate to see high unemployment as it is particularly rough on kids eager to get on with their lives and careers. Remember how rough it was for me starting out in the very early sixties, entry level jobs just so hard to find. But if Steve Forbes or someone were talking to me he would probably remove a lot of my apprehensions about the jobs picture. Got to be some business people with enough capital to "prime the pump" so to speak and get this thing going again. Know we have a lot of exportable food stuffs, timber, agricultural products to export. Just got to make sure we trade on a level trading field. Hope we can make this happen. Then everybody can buy more Tesla's. Bet this electician I was speaking about could build him a solar unit I was discussing awhile back. The twenty grand unit. He could do it for himself at a very good price I bet. Looks like we all may have to learn more about "lectricty" LOL.

searcher | September 8, 2011

What I am fixing to discuss may sound like it is getting into the political realm but that is not my intention as one thing I hope to do is stay apolitical because anything else would be getting out of the parameters of even this thread.

I heard Bill Oreilly make the comment on his show that while the President was making his speech tonight on jobs that a man{forgot his name} was sitting beside The First Lady and this man had moved his company operations to China and possible thought Bill might have said his coporate headquarters to. Well I have called these type corporate people "bleeps" in previous discussions. So I just don't know. Seems that Biil thought it was a little bizzare as did I. Bill mentioned he wanted to see more things going across the world with three little words on them "Made In America" as do I.

So what gives on this balance of trade thing with China am I just not understanding this issue or what? If I am misunderstanding it I sure hope someone will explain some things about our China trade that I may not be understanding. Could it be they are selling us toaster ovens and we are selling them Caterpillar tractors. So just how does this balance of trade thing work out if anyone cares to elaborate?

Oh incendently we bought a General Electric toaster oven{made in China} from the "big store". Oven worked great for about two years and now has a short or something. Still under warranty and I will go pick up another. But this is such a hassle.

Brian H | September 9, 2011

About labour in China getting its fair share: surprise, economic forces CANNOT be evaded. The one child policy is starting to bite, and there is a shortage of young qualified help. Wages as percentage of GDP etc are rising fast. The gov't, not being entirely idiotic, is actually glad this is happening because it puts cash in the hands of consumers and lifts everything "from below".

searcher | September 9, 2011

BrianH, First: thanks for taking the time to reply to my questions and apprehensions. Second: Thanks also for the time it must take for you to be a very well informed individual.

I was basing a lot of my apprhensions on information I had recieved aprx. two years ago from someone who had just spent twenty years in China.

So sounds like things might be changing some for the better. I especially liked the aspect of bringing things up from the bottom as I believe a;; apects of the economic engine have to be balanced fairly well for the well being of the professional class as well as the working class{certinly not to imply the professional class doesn't work as I know from first hand observation they work extremely hard} so no class warfare here.

Your messege was reassuring to me and honestly I feel much better as I actually do have confidence in the integrity of your information.

Now will you plese tell me how to get rid of the extra {not original} thread I have out there? Like I said before I am not too conversant with PC's as I have had one only fairly recently and my work was on large mainframes, printers, tape silos and the like. Different animal altogether and I sure am not ashamed to ask elementary questions if I don't know.

Thkyuvermuch and TCB Just in case you dont know what the TCB is all about, Elvis would give employees etc, who had done a good job rings and other jewelry with an inscription of a lightening bolt with the letters TCB on them. This represented 'Taking care of business" very quickly and effeciently.

Brian H | September 10, 2011

I think a thread is forever unless the moderators kill it. Maybe you could flag your own as "inappropriate"?? ;)

searcher | September 27, 2011

Looking back over some of the post on this thread and ggggggggggggggggggot into discussion ofnuclear for recharging etc. Some of the stuff got to sounding fairly safe.

Now qustion to some you "atomic foks". Ever a chance of a nuclear powered car with no more danger than gas powered car in collision or does this one go back into the "snowball in hell" bin? Just asking now, not advocating one way or another.

Also in totally unrelated vein does anybody remember waht the "firepower capability of some of our most advanced battleships was seems like abilility to destroy combined military might of the woeld five times over, this seems kind of extravegant, does anybody remeber it, we discussed it somewhere.

Another unrelated question, haven't been on site much what are latest developments in the Tesla lawsuit with the BBC?

Still another unrelated, why don't some of us notify the presidential candidates{all} about Tesla, never hear Tesla mentioned , or course we all understand about the government and the GM thing but still this car company needs to me mentioned. I will pesrsonally try to see that it is. So if you see them mention Tesla you will know "ole searcher" did good.

Brianh, Got a survey call would I be in favor of bringing oil pipeline across US border going from Canada to refineries in Houston and of course I said yes. Where all would this oil be coming from, any from the Artic?

So everyone take your pick at any of these comments and questions.

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