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Auto-pilot to blame!

Auto-pilot to blame!

These type of headlines are a really big problem, how to counter effectively?

Wattsworth | May 17, 2019

Elon's entire marketing strategy is social media. That is preaching to the choir. He should consider traditional media advertising aimed at educating the public about the issues that harbor the most misconceptions in the general public: charging, autopilot, real world range, etc.

As far as what _we_ can do, use social media and personal contacts to correct the record.

aperfectecho | May 17, 2019

I agree. I think that a small percentage of users are part of the issue, as well. Remember, AP1 didn't nag for "hands on," but that changed (maybe not related) after multiple videos came out of people sitting in the back seat, or sleeping in the car, etc. I think that, and a few highly-publicized crashes (although Tesla won out in general) caused enough concern that people are still quick to blame AP.
I love it. It's not perfect, but keeps getting better. I don't try to defeat the nags, I keep my hands on the steering wheel, etc. Use it as you're supposed to, and it is wonderful.
I don't like those knee-jerk headlines, either, and feel they do damage. I cannot count the number of times someone questions those things, when they learn I have a Model 3. I quickly and calmly educate with my personal experience, and any facts I may know about the particulars.
I think it will get better and better, and once more experience the benefits (hey, commercial airplanes are using AP) they will change their views

calvin940 | May 17, 2019

This headline can never be true given the documentation around how AutoPilot is to be used. Any such accident is automatically the driver's fault. Full Stop.

Marzipan | May 17, 2019

The only solution is to rename it to something that is not misunderstood by uniformed people (which is the majority). Most people assume AP means fully autonomous, which it isn' ... but that of course would take away a lot of the hype it's creating.

I love AP - but I have trust issues - I know by know on my regular drives where it will fail and I know when going new routes that I have to be alert. For now it can not (as document by Tesla) not be trusted to by an autonomous AP ... that will come in some future update.

Frank99 | May 17, 2019

After several thousand miles on AP, I don't trust it as far as I could pick up the car and throw it. It makes enough errors that are either downright rude to other drivers, or dangerous, that I'm a good boy when I use it and am alert and watching the road. It's still a load-lifter because I don't have to monitor speed and land position (and, with NOA, the need to switch lanes), but it doesn't remove 100% of the load from me, the driver.

I don't know how to get that message across to uninformed people who don't understand the ramifications of the warning they clicked through when they first bought the car, or who never read the user's manual.

lilbean | May 17, 2019

How about not creating a thread with that title for starters.

richard | May 17, 2019

"These type of headlines are a really big problem, how to counter effectively?"

***proceeds to make such headline***

Neomaxizoomdweebie | May 17, 2019

Fake news does what fake news does. As long as they build customer dissatisfaction articles based on researching this forum full of disinformation and fake owners we will never be rid of headlines like your post. It’s a total goat fu@&.

apodbdrs | May 17, 2019

I have been using Auto Pilot since a purchased my Model 3 in July 2018 and have never had a problem with it. There have been numerous improvements since then, making even better. Everytime I use it I keep my hands on the wheel and acknowledge it is still in beta. What is so stupid are the IDIOTS that continue to use AP and ignore TESLA's very clear direction to maintain your hands on the wheel and to pay attention. Even in this forum you find somme IDIOT blaming AP for their own poor decisions. AP is not perfect, but I find it 1000 times better than most of the drivers I see on the road.

Consumer Reports, NTSB, etc. are all bought paid for by the ICE industry and big oil!

gmr6415 | May 17, 2019

The Florida papers are stating it differently. They're stating that autopilot was on at the time of the accident, but they are not blaming it on autopilot specifically.

Tesla’s self-driving system was on at time of fatal Florida crash

https://www.theledger.com/zz/news/20190517/teslas-self-driving-system-wa...

ICEMELT | May 17, 2019

I have heard that the ICE industry and Big oil had huge lobby to restrict rail transportation which is the most energy efficient form of transportation.

On the topic, ironically, I met 3rd person today who has LRAWD with EAP and never tried AP at all. Not even TACC

Njbrw549 | May 17, 2019

Autopilot to Blame? Didn't the truck enter the highway when traffic was approaching that had the right of way?
Bill

kaushal | May 17, 2019

I have yet to see a headline that says "autopilot to blame"
Most of the ones I've read state that autopilot while on, wasn't being used as recommended.

fazman | May 17, 2019

So does that mean we need to rename the product from Auto Pilot to:
1) Drivers Fault
2) Driver Aware
3) Alert Driver
4) Some other less catchy phrase that doesn’t include pilot automation and instills driver at fault?

WantMY | May 17, 2019

The head lines is not correct about AP, but it is still an issue for Tesla, because of it has AEB system - Automatic Emergency Braking and this is the thing that failed miserably in every moving accident involving Tesla cars. And this is not a joke, people get killed.

lilbean | May 17, 2019

They were killed for being stupid.

No_ICE | May 17, 2019

The crash was tragic but owners need to realize that, at highway speeds, AP will ignore stationary objects and crossing objects with high ground clearances. Hopefully, when Elon says AP will be functionally complete by the end of the year, this includes removing this particular limitation.

WantMY | May 17, 2019

Hm, why MB cars are trained to recognize all of those situations? But Tesla gives a catchy names to the safety features and those do not really do anything where it really counts. InsideEV posted recently video of MB new EV going soon to production and it does it right.

Magic 8 Ball | May 17, 2019

I wonder if I can sue Ford for selling me all those automobiles over the years. I had to steer those dang things too.

nsirkin | May 17, 2019

This is the headline/article that is so irresponsible...

https://www.ibtimes.com/tesla-model-3-autopilot-feature-blame-death-driv...

Neomaxizoomdweebie | May 17, 2019

You’d never see the headline “Cruise Control to blame for Chevy driver’s death”

@Tesla, rename Autopilot to Cruise Control. Call it something flashy like 2D Cruise Control and 3D Cruise Control. Nitwits are used to that term.
2D: L/R to keep you in lane and fore/aft to keep you at set speed or cruise distance.
3D: same as above but can pass slow traffic to keep you on time.
4D coming later next decade when cars can fly.

SteveWin1 | May 17, 2019

"Experts noted Tesla's engineers had had more than two years to improve the system and avoid a repeat of the situation that led to Brown's death." That's not really fair, since the first one was with MobileEye's system and Tesla had to start from scratch. That said, after parting ways with MobileEye for driving under a truck and decapitating someone, how did Tesla NOT make it a priority to give their neural net a ton of pictures of the sides of trucks to learn from?

Neomaxizoomdweebie | May 17, 2019

@SteveWin1,
That’s a good freaking point. We’ve seen lots of great dash cam posts of Tesla’s doing incredible things. I wonder if anyone has dashcam footage of a semi near-miss where an attentive driver slammed on the brakes to avoid being decapitated.

mikeng6274 | May 17, 2019

I had experience once a semi truck making left turn and stop in the middle of the road on a busy street as my car was traveling with Autopilot on the opposite road. I just had my new car only couple days and at the instinct, I was ready to step on my brake if my car would not stop or slow down. I found out my car did not slow down or stop, I step on the brake before my car hit the semi truck. If I was not prepare to step on the brake, my car would have run under it because my car's radar/sensor saw not the truck but open area. I know I have to learn how to drive with AP and to learn what it can do and can not do . I enjoy driving my model 3 with Navigate on Autopilot . My reason to buy model 3 was because it is the safest. the best and the most enjoyable car to drive.

greg | May 17, 2019

Maybe the law makers need to be updating old laws to force semi-trucks to have under run side protection bars/panels in place. Like they have in Europe and other places in the world.

Then the Tesla wouldn't see the "open air" under the trailer as a low tunnel. It would see a "no-go" area like the other vehicles on the road. Be safer for other roads users too.

Agree AP needs to get better at detecting that situation.

But even it it did, it would likely only detect high sided trailers as obstacles.

Flat bed semi truck trailers with no cargo on them are just as dangerous - and much harder for people and AP sensors to pick up. Especially at 70+ MPH. (Which means you cover 102 feet per second).

For the Florida case at the stated "engaged AP" 8 seconds before impact for the Florida crash, you'd have to detect a semi-trailer obstacle at 822 feet.

More likely even a human would not see a hazard that much in advance, and would not see it and begin braking until half that distance. You would then have a stopping distance of 312 feet (including thinking/reaction time) on a dry road with good tyres.

More likely even a person wouldn't see a semi pulling a flat bed cargo trailer at 400 feet. And wouldn't break untilo much later.

Making a collision - with under run almost guaranteed in that situation.

kevin_rf | May 18, 2019

Don't forget road design and road speed play a large factor in both of these accidents. You have feeder roads crossing high speed highways at grade. Not much reaction time at 70mph when a slow lumbering truck cuts across the lane to make a left turn. This can take several seconds and be well beyond visual range of the truck driver. He has to rely on drivers slowing down. The advantage of a person who is paying attention is they will start braking as soon as they see the truck. Someone on their phone or letting AP do the driving will not be as lucky.

It comes down to all the holes lining up in the swiss cheese.

Something to chew on. We all complain about phantom braking near overpasses in strong shadow. Is it triggered by the car trying to handle this corner case?

It may be a corner case in most of the country, but in Florida this is how the roads are built and it is not a corner case.

howard | May 18, 2019

This is squarely on Tesla. AEB should have engaged period.

kevin_rf | May 18, 2019

And Howard the fatalities in the crash of flight SU1492 is clearly on the lightning that stuck the plane, not the electrical system it fried, the fact it was in normal law, the pilots miss handled the landing bouncing the plane, the landing gear failing, the gear puncturing the fuel tanks, the engines igniting the fuel, the engines not being shutdown post crash, the delayed arrival of the fire trucks, or passengers grabbing luggage during the evacuation.

You need several holes in the cheese to line up for accidents like this. Starting with road design, an inpatient (maybe) truck driver, an in attentive driver, the driver not ducking, and the car not recognizing the danger. This issues should be dealt with on all fronts, not just blaming Tesla.

WantMY | May 18, 2019

My EV(not Tesla, but relatively young car manufacturer) is very accurate to detect critical situations, sometimes a bit on defensive side, but it never failed to alert me and based on my observations, not on manufacturer claims, I have no doubt it would intervene appropriately, if I am not responsive for valid or invalid reason this might be. Although it has TACC and Lane keep, I never had any tendency to let it drive on its own, because it never give me any reason to depend on it.

Neomaxizoomdweebie | May 18, 2019

@WantMY,
What kind of car do you have? I'm thinking about trading up.

WantMY | May 18, 2019

My EV is very rare in US and plenty in EU. it meats my requirements nicely, but those are very limited considering EV is not yet overcome many difficulties, just too early. Model 3 is good car, but not best in the world. There is no best EV at the moment. BTW, Model 3 is sedan, and pretty much no other manufacturer makes sedan EV - not the hot demand body factor for any car. Being sedan is a turn off for many buyers to start with.

Neomaxizoomdweebie | May 18, 2019

Soooo you don't want to tell me about your awesome car? I tell EVERYONE about my awesome car! But okay, thank you for assuming I don't have the ability to get a hard to come by European car. You shouldn't assume I am incapable or without means to acquire the best.

and it's "meets", not "meats".

jefjes | May 18, 2019

A better headline should read- "Another death occurs while a slow-moving semi crosses fast-moving thru traffic without enough time to react. Not even enough time for autopilot equipped vehicle so speed limits and highway designs are being reevaluated."

Mikael13 | May 18, 2019

I guess I’ll chime in.... WantMy, if you don’t have a Tesla, why are you on the Tesla M3 forum? You obviously are aware that when you join a forum, it’s because you want to help others, or gain knowledge. You can choose to accept or disregard any opinions stated by M3 members/owners. If you want to bash Tesla, there are other forums/reddit sites for that, so you might feel better at home there? Sorry, I don’t understand the logic of you being here, knowing the majority of people here love their Tesla M3s.

Mike83 | May 18, 2019

Come now media, let's repeat these stories just one tenth as much as a Semi getting in front of s Tesla going 68 mph

https://abc13.com/audi-r-8-engulfed-in-flames-on-texas-city-highway/5250...

https://www.cnet.com/roadshow/news/mercedes-benz-recalls-354000-late-mod...

WantMY | May 18, 2019

@Mikael13 Do some research first. I am waiting for Model Y and making effort it is the best EV Tesla ever builds. I had reservation for 35K Model 3 that never happen. Many were waiting for over two years and posting here without owning the car, so if you just bought your poorly chosen EV - it is your issue, not mine. so this is why I am here and would be here until I get what i want or they open Model Y section, lol

howard | May 18, 2019

@kevin_rf, Wrong analogy. Boeing 737 Max two fatal crashes and hundreds dead. Whoops, we have a software-hardware problem. These are not games and there is a huge responsibility to ensure things like AEB and stall warning systems are perfect 100% of the time. The bigger question is why did AEB not engage? These are real issues. I don't use any of the self-driving capabilities, including adaptive cruise, and don't rely on any of the safety systems of the Tesla because I flat don't trust them. I did invest in the HW3 upgrade hoping it will improve things. Time will tell.

WantMY | May 18, 2019

@jefjes I certainly hope they will follow through with your new title suggestion when it is time for your obituary to be published. You do not have any respect even for other Tesla Owner and his family, who died.

Mikael13 | May 18, 2019

Gotcha. I’m new-ish here. A (very) just proud M3 owner for 2 months, who picked up a great inventory car, with all the specs I wanted, and got the car the next day. :-)

I was just wondering why the hate. No time to stalk and read through past posts. Be patient and you’ll eventually love the car once you get it. I have a reservation for the Y too but haven’t told my wife. I’ll trade her ICE Tucson in hopefully and get some resale value off of it.

Mike83 | May 18, 2019

A long haul Semi is 70 feet long pulling in front of you and going 68 mph and turning on AP 8 seconds before would not help avoiding a crash off or on.
The media FUDsters continue ignoring reality

Tronguy | May 18, 2019

@WantMy: There's this thing. On the internet, nobody knows that one is a dog. Comment sections of web sites nowadays, right on back to Usenet, and even further back to dial-up BBS's.
There have always been trolls. And poseurs. And, what the heck, Russians running around on political discussion boards attempting to make trouble and, literally, riots in the U.S. and other countries.
One usually can figure out after a time who's who, mainly by looking at their posts, applying intelligence, and attempting to figure out whether the writer is a bot, real, or someone with an agenda.
Heck, I used to hang out on misc.kids, back in the day, and, depending upon the Usenet reader, it wasn't too much trouble preventing spam bots and individudual crazies from getting into the read queue. Although, in the end, it was spam bots and crazies that killed off Usenet.
Problem is, around these parts, there are definitely people who are shorts and have a financial interest in putting Tesla in a bad light. And there are also the usual crazies and trolls.
In addition, people who have never had a Tesla before come wandering through here in an attempt to determine what the cognizenti think about the car. That's fair; I've never had a car before that didn't have something odd about it and bitching about the odd parts is what people do. And the wanderers through here sometimes have decent questions, both about the features and demerits. And wanderers tend to know about what's bitching as normal and bitching seriously, and, so what the heck. Life.
But regards to this guy in Florida who blew through a tractor trailer.
1. The manual is really clear on the point that above 50 mph or so the car won't detect a fixed object. It's not just Tesla; pretty much all the TACC cars do that. They do that because (a) the faster one goes, the more the doppler shift of all the fixed objects increases, but (b) if you look at all that crap coming back, it overwhelms the actual signals of real cars that one is going to track, so (c) a low-pass filter is used in the receiver that kills the big doppler shift reflections, so one just sees the cars that one is actually attempting to track. Like I said: It's not just Tesla, but BMW, Mercedes Benz, and so on make that clear as well.
2. Anybody who actually drives a Tesla in TACC or EAP finds out in a Real Big Hurry that the car has its limitations. Yes, I read the manual. So, when the S.O. and I were out driving, we _watched_ what the car was doing. And, frankly, it makes mistakes. Fewer now than back in Septermber, but still. It would jerk towards on-ramps. It has a tendency to faint in the presence of shadows, not so much now, but still. Frankly, Tesla's way more than clear that one is supposed to keep hand(s) on the wheel and eyes front. If one didn't read the manual, attempting to turn those functions on for the first time comes up with Death Is Available warnings, and one has to do an OK after reading that. Yeah, software licenses 50 pages long that nobody read - but this stuff was short, to the point, and, for $DIETY's sake, it's a blazing ton and something CAR, for crying out loud.
3. Which means that, sobbing relatives and all, they're sobbing over an idiot. What was he doing, answering texts while doing 65?
And then there's you.
1. You don't own a Tesla. You said so.
2. You claim to own a European "Better" BEV. But you won't say what it is. Give me break, if there's a better car, we people-with-brains-inside-of-skulls would like to know about it. It makes for a better debate.
3. You say nasty stuff about the Tesla.. but you don't own one. You just point at know-nothing reporters who will repeat anything if it provides fill. If said reporter isn't aligned with shorts, or other non-oil-eating car manufacturers.

So, what is it? You an honest broker of information, or are you a shortie? Or troll?

Neomaxizoomdweebie | May 18, 2019

@wntmyt,
I think it would make more sense if you post on the General forum while you wait for the Model Y forum to open up. It is very illogical for you to post here.

kevin_rf | May 18, 2019

Howard that's cute, multiple things went wrong in the two fatal Tesla ride under accidents. While the EAP played a staring roll, several other decisions where made that contributed to both of these fatalities. Tesla's are not the only vehicles that have this issue in Florida. At grade intersections on highways as Florida built them are a serious safety hazard. The trucks can not safely clear two lanes of traffic while making a left turn. They kill people, especially people who are texting or impaired.

PT610 and ET302 are bad examples, a single point failure brought both of those planes down. The system MCAS was adapted from used both AOA sensors, someone made a bad decision to single string it for the MAX. In reality, while it was a single point failure that is being redesigned out, other things contributed. For instance the leg before PT610 had the same issue and the pilots managed to safely land the plane. The black box on ET302 indicated the AOA sensor departed the aircraft on takeoff (most likely a bird strike) and the pilots incorrectly retracted the flaps, triggering the MCAS, they where unable to overcome the MCAS system after that.

At no point can a driver not take back control of a Tesla from the EAP. Multiple holes are required in the cheese to reproduce the two Florida accidents. Until Tesla has a fix, it should not be used at high speed on roads that have at grade intersections. Even if they are considered highways. Also don't text or search pornhub for Tesla while driving.

Mike83 | May 18, 2019
howard | May 18, 2019

kevin_rf, AEB should have engaged period. HW2 too busy engaging AP to respond to eminent AEB event?

greg | May 18, 2019

@howard

Tell me again how AEB would detect a flat bed trailer pulled by a semi across the road in front of you, perpendicular to your path when said trailer has absolutely nothing on it. Meaning the semi presents a minimal obstacle profile?

Even human drivers will struggle in that situation, at 70 MPH - to detect and stop in time.

And no its not HW2 struggling with AP and AEB because countless videos exist of exactly that situation where AEB worked on Freeways and elsewhere. So that works.

The problem here is that this example (as was the previous Florida semi under run death), basically two examples of a "5 sigma" event.

Musk never said AEB and AP was perfect, he just said it had to be 10 times (or more) better than Humans.
Not that it would never, ever, ever crash or kill.

So far, seems to be that AP and AEB is out performing humans by a comfortable margin over the 10 times better.

And with HW 3 the situation will no doubt dramatically improve.

So get of your "it must be perfect or else" high horse.

howard | May 18, 2019

Greg, sure.

WantMY | May 18, 2019

@Tronguy "3. Which means that, sobbing relatives and all, they're sobbing over an idiot. What was he doing, answering texts while doing 65?" It is including you, just matter of time, sir

lilbean | May 18, 2019

Why argue with a guy that doesn’t own a Tesla, doesn’t understand how it works, and wastes his time on a forum for a product he doesn’t even like?

WantMY | May 18, 2019

It looks like it would take ignoramus Musk to get his small d-head decapitated in similar accident, so he would start thinking with his big head and do something about it.

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