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Auto-pilot to blame!

Auto-pilot to blame!

These type of headlines are a really big problem, how to counter effectively?

WantMY | May 18, 2019

@lilbean Where go you see me arguing? lol

Neomaxizoomdweebie | May 18, 2019

@WantMY,
Would you like me to create a post on the General Forum for you to comment about the Model Y? Since you don't have owner privileges I would be happy to do that for you. Just let me know.

ODWms | May 18, 2019

@Greg
"Tell me again how AEB would detect a flat bed trailer pulled by a semi across the road in front of you, perpendicular to your path when said trailer has absolutely nothing on it."
--------

Maybe I'm missing something here, but I'm still not sure how the tractor and trailer are being missed, either by EAP or the Tesla driver. I live in Florida. Been driving here my entire driving life (about 4 decades). I've come up on trailers being pulled in this scenario many, many times, and never even come close to hitting one because I "couldn't see it." There must be something else at play.

kevin_rf | May 18, 2019

I will make argument that the phantom braking at overpasses with strong shadow is a symptom of them trying to properly handle this corner case.

greg | May 18, 2019

@ODWms

Of course [many] other things are at play. But its not all (or even the majority) of Tesla's AP or AEB at fault.

For instance, one obvious thing to me - is why does Florida have roads that are being used like de-facto Freeways - with vehicles [legally or otherwise] travelling at Freeway level speeds - without all the safety features Freeways usually have - like proper on and off ramps and grade separation of cross traffic movements?

A corollary question is: Why are these accidents happening mainly in Florida so far? If this was an endemic problem in AP and AEB would we not see such problems and fatalities in Teslas everywhere? After all Freeways and Semis are not unique to Florida.

I note this similar accident happened early in January this year, killed at least 6 times as many - and the news is not all over that one. Clearly: No Tesla or AP involved. Nothing to see here, move along.

https://wgno.com/2019/01/03/six-people-killed-in-florida-interstate-crash/

But sounds eerily similar - vehicle side impact/under run accident.

That to me, is the actual root cause of the problem here.
You may disagree having driven there for 40 years. You may also have learned the "self preservation" skills to drive on such roads without getting into such accidents. Doesn't mean there isn't a problem.

But putting that basic design problem aside for a moment, high sided semis - even slow-poke ones like we had here are easy to spot - they have a large side profile. Hard to ignore. In daylight, on dry roads.

But clearly AEB (and AP) is doing that. It looks as if the "gap underneath them" - due to no side protections is also at play here. A large high sided semi with side [under run] protection will be seen more clearly. Because if the vehicle presented a solid "surface" from near the road to top of the vehicle to the Tesla - it would react as if you are driving straight into a wall or a vehicle and obviously brake.

The gap between trailer deck and the road , with light coming through it [and radar also seeing through it] clearly fools the AEB and AP that its some kind of odd sized over bridge or [short] tunnel - after all in both visible spectrum and to radar it appears that way.

So it appears the AP and AEB sees it as a over bridge behind a crest in the road - hence why it doesn't brake. That is a common driving situation after all.

But, after the first incident happened, a few people here started reporting their S and Xs braking under AEB - just when they were about to drive under such an over bridge, that was behind a crest in the road - as AEB then started seeing it as a "semi trailer" across the road - not as it actually was. Obviously AP/AEB went "back to school" for a bit after the first case.

Seems that lesson has been overtaken by others in the meantime, and either forgotten or relegated due to its relative infrequent occurrence in real life.

But even if you trained it handle that situation clearly, yet another one lurks - the issue of an empty semi trailer [with nothing on the trailer] - that presents a very small (but clearly, for survival, important) obstruction profile to the traffic.

That is one hard corner case you will not easily solve right now, it seems, especially on the Florida roads with the semitrailers used now that are without side protections. So appear hard to see in some situations.

Yes it must eventually be solved for full Level 5 Autonomy.

But it doesn't have to be solved today to make AEB and AP much better than most human drivers are today.

In essence, we mustn't let Perfect cannot be the enemy of Better (or even "Good Enough for now"). As if we go that way we'll never get any autonomy.

As no autonomous system could ever result in zero deaths - unless all vehicles on the road were autonomous and communicating to each other to avoid each other.

Meanwhile while we carry on as normal without any automation, the road deaths and injuries will steadily mount as a faster rate from not automating the parts of driving and thus making it safer that are automate-able.

But I do think Tesla can improve their AP/AEB software far quicker that Florida can fix its freeways or Semo trailers can all be made to have side protections.

Other car makers? Not so much.

howard | May 18, 2019

So let’s change all the roads in FL and change all the millions of semi trucks in use to ensure my new TSLA works properly. Did I miss something?

WantMY | May 18, 2019

"Other car makers? Not so much." It works on mine (other) just fine, no need to fix anything. It also detects stationary objects and detects pedestrians. It looks like Tesla only issue.

Neomaxizoomdweebie | May 18, 2019

What is your car???? Please, for the love of god tell me so I can buy five!!!

owlegrad2 | May 18, 2019

Are semi's not allowed on roads outside of Fl? I cannot for the life of me imagine why this issue would disproportionately affect Florida. I am also very confused by why some people seem to think spotting an empty trailer bed is challenging for humans...it's not. You can see them just fine. You can also see the giant wheels as well as the cab pulling the trailer.

I feel like I have stumbled onto a conversation where I only think I understand what is being discussed. Are we actually discussing some type of road I have never driven on that has some kind of semi trailer that I have never seen???

kevin_rf | May 18, 2019

How many highways outside of FL have at grade intersections that cross all four lanes of a highway without a traffic control device? I can only think of one, WV-55 in West Virginia. It's not a common road design because at high speeds you have limited reaction time for slow vehicles crossing the road.

Every state has it's quirks, they like putting stop signs at the end of on ramps and just having to punch and pray.

Neomaxizoomdweebie | May 18, 2019

This car that WantMY speaks of, it the George Glass to his Jan Brady.

mos6507 | May 18, 2019

"how to counter effectively?"

Replace Musk. The buck stops at the top.

ODWms | May 19, 2019

@greg - thanks for that detailed explanation. I’m just trying to grasp the issue here, and I’m sure I’ll get it at some point. For now, my sentiments run similar to what owlegrad2 had to say:

“[i] I am also very confused by why some people seem to think spotting an empty trailer bed is challenging for humans...it's not. You can see them just fine. You can also see the giant wheels as well as the cab pulling the trailer.[/i]”

Tesla2018 | May 19, 2019

That section of road used to be a two-lane highway with mostly farm around it. Within the last 20 years major developments have been built up along the farmland that has been sold and it is 2 lanes in each direction. There are still some farms and tractor trailers cross from one side of the road into the other. There are no traffic lights and on one section there is a canal that runs along the road going north. The reports say he only had the autopilot engaged for about 10 seconds. Must not have been paying attention because he should have been able to see the truck pulling out or on the other side of the road between the time he engaged autopilot and the time of the crash.

WantMY | May 19, 2019

I wonder what Tesla status-quo defenders would say about this thankfully not tragic Tesla AEB failure. It meets all limited condition (not applicable to other cars AEB) Tesla put into manual and it still a failL https://insideevs.com/news/350299/tesla-dashcam-chevy-camaro-wreck/

Tronguy | May 19, 2019

@WantMY:
So, let's get this all straight. My posting, with snippage:
>3. Which means that, sobbing relatives and all, they're sobbing over an idiot. What was he doing, answering texts while doing 65?
--more snippage--
>And then there's you.
>1. You don't own a Tesla. You said so.
>2. You claim to own a European "Better" BEV. But you won't say what it is. Give me break, if there's a better car, we people-with-brains-inside-of-skulls would like to know about it. It makes for a better debate.
>3. You say nasty stuff about the Tesla.. but you don't own one. You just point at know-nothing reporters who will repeat anything if it provides fill. If said reporter isn't aligned with shorts, or other non-oil-eating car manufacturers.
>
>So, what is it? You an honest broker of information, or are you a shortie? Or troll?

Then, you post:
>>@Tronguy "3. Which means that, sobbing relatives and all, they're sobbing over an idiot. What was he doing, answering texts while doing 65?" It is including you, just matter of time, sir

So, it a challenging question. Are you trolling or not? You could have said no. You could have mentioned the car you own, but won't tell anybody about. None of that. Instead, you make a literally baseless indirection claim that, for some reason, you think that _I_ might be texting, sooner or later. Because, why not make a baseless claim? What's that, a "When will you stop beating your wife?" type of question?

Conclusion: You're a troll. Everybody else: Hang him/her/it out to dry.

I wonder how many layers of internet misdirection he/she/it is posting from.

Not that + and - comment stuff doesn't have its own problems, but wish there was a way to handle #%# like this. "Flag as inappropriate" sort of sounds like what to do if somebody is cursing or linking to porn or something.

Neomaxizoomdweebie | May 19, 2019

Dear WantMY,
RTFM.
Love,
Tesla
Automatic Emergency Braking does not apply the brakes, or stops applying the brakes, when:
• You turn the steering wheel sharply.
• You press and release the brake pedal while Automatic Emergency Braking is applying the brakes.
• You accelerate hard while Automatic Emergency Braking is applying the brakes.
• The vehicle, motorcycle, bicycle, or pedestrian is no longer detected ahead.

Which of the above do you think occurred? If you said "you press and release the brake pedal while Automatic Emergency Braking is applying the brakes" you would be correct.

WantMY | May 19, 2019

Dear @Neomaxizoomdweebie
RTFM. AEB newer works! Got it?
Love,
Tesla

Neomaxizoomdweebie | May 19, 2019

There’s a newer AEB? Can’t wait!

WantMY | May 19, 2019

Dear @Neomaxizoomdweebie
RTFM. AEB never, ever works! We just put bunch of clauses to avoid any legal challenges. Got it?
Love,
Tesla

Neomaxizoomdweebie | May 19, 2019

Atta girl! Use your words!

WantMY | May 19, 2019

@Tronguy I am sorry you ca not comprehend while being a shipple cult follower. You brain is not build for independent thinking. Do not get discouraged because of you are part of 99% of earth population.

Magic 8 Ball | May 19, 2019

Tin foil hats, three for a dollar.

Neomaxizoomdweebie | May 19, 2019

@WantMY,
Your English is not as good as the guy running your username on last night’s shift. You may want to work on that before boss comes down on you.

WantMY | May 19, 2019

@Neomaxizoomdweebie it is nice to see you're still bleating after last night, lol

Tronguy | May 19, 2019

@Neomaxizoomdweebie: No offense, and with respect to your correct RTFM comment, I would like to add this other bit straight from The Manual. (The manual puts a red triangle with an exclamation point in front of the text, so this is life-and-death stuff.)
----------
Warning: Traffic-Aware Cruise Control cannot detect all objects and, especially in situations when you are driving over 50 mph (80 km/h), may not brake/decelerate when a vehicle or object is only partially in the driving lane or when a vehicle you are following moves out of your driving path and a stationary or slow-moving vehicle or object is in front of you. Always pay attention to the road ahead and stay prepared to take immediate corrective action. Depending on Traffic-Aware Cruise Control to avoid a collision can result in serious injury or death. In addition, Traffic-Aware Cruise Control may react to vehicles or objects that either do not exist or are not in the lane of travel, causing Model 3 to slowdown unnecessarily or inappropriately.
---------
Over 50 mph: Check. Stopped: Check. Not paying attention in front of one: Check. Didn't RTFM: Dunno, can't ask him now.

Neomaxizoomdweebie | May 19, 2019

@Tronguy,
None taken. I know the software is a work in progress and will only get better. Its fun (on occasion) to wallow in the mud with whatever random farm troll is running the WantMY screen name. I've had my fill. Time for a bath.

WantMY | May 19, 2019

@Tronguy It would be easier just to glue nice RED BIG font sticker on the dash: "EVERY SAFETY FEATURE LISTED FOR YOUR CAR WILL FAIL IN CASE OF ANY ACCIDENT. SAFE YOURSELF, LOVE, TESLA". This way nobody could excuse themselves by not reading the manual.

Magic 8 Ball | May 19, 2019

@WantMy Since you don't own a TESLA you probably don't know you are required to accept terms, on the car's screen, before using the features in question. No one can force anyone to read stickers or read the terms before accepting.

Seriously what frat are you guys running this game out of?

WantMY | May 19, 2019

The meaning "Automatic Emergency Braking" is pretty clear for most people to deduct what it suppose to do and when. Nobody forced Tesla to mislabel the safety feature. It would be crystal clear with out reading any manual, if they would call it: "Not Automatic Emergency Braking" or "Once in the blue moon Emergency Braking" or "Semi Automatic Emergency Braking" - there are countless ways to name it appropriately.

Tronguy | May 19, 2019

@Magic 8 Ball: I kinda think it's not a frat. Most college educated types have had High School English and have probably been exposed to College English somewhere. On the other hand: Once upon a time I was a lab T.A. in EE. The students had to hand their lab notebooks in for grading (there was ditto paper built in for the purpose), the intent being that Somebody Else could figure out what they were doing and how. I stated at the beginning that I would take off a tenth of a point per English error, with some fudging, the main point being that it should be readable.
And there was this guy.. Born in the USA, yes. Changing tenses three times in the same sentence, misspellings, bad usage, grammar errors.. I made it through two paragraphs, couldn't take it any more, and knocked him down a letter grade on it for that week (10 points), which actually probably saved him going down _two_ letter grades.
After handing back the results, he challenged me in the lab. I pointed out the errors and asked him to please, do better. And did he think that that kind of word smithing would go over well after college? His answer: "I don't have to use good grammar or English. That's what secretaries are for!"
Yes, pre-IBM PC's and Wordstar. But, still...
The ESL people did just fine

Magic 8 Ball | May 19, 2019

So when a manufacturer sells an automobile and there really is nothing "auto" about it they were all misled?

Magic 8 Ball | May 19, 2019

It is exactly the type of thing I would have done if I were at a frat. I would have gotten daddy's account and posted a set of rules to yank chain of Tesla people and let the frat have some fun with it. But knowing a bit of the history of this one I will just have some fun with wild speculation.

I wonder what the underlying motivation is?

WantMY | May 19, 2019

@Magic I can not help you, but I bought a car, lol

Magic 8 Ball | May 19, 2019

I know I posted a video of you in it earlier, very cute.

WantMY | May 19, 2019

I refer to it as a vehicle, sometimes.

Magic 8 Ball | May 19, 2019

How many of those you got? Looks like you upgraded recently?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZzBLulstphA

Magic 8 Ball | May 19, 2019

Your new ride has an ashtray just like dads ; ).

Tronguy | May 19, 2019

@Magic 8 Ball: Um. Could be a frat. But the person/persons that makes these posts attempt to use logic (bad logic) that the unaware wouldn't realize was wrong. So, it looks like he/she/it/their target isn't people who own Teslas, it seems to be casual non-Tesla owners who come by thinking to check out comments on the car. Hence, the underlying motivation would be, "Poisoning the well.". Therefore, my nickel is on a bunch of shorts.
I've noticed this WantMy poster on a bunch of recent threads. So, yeah, probably shorts attempting to poison the well.
I swear, this is my near last post to this thread. But I only started hanging around here last September, when the S.O. and I got the car. At that time there were quite a few posts by regulars alluding to trolls/shorts on the forum, leading, apparently, to the @Red-whoever-his-name-is long-running, Tesla-ain't-dead thread. So, I got a question:
What did the people around here actually do about the alluded-to large quantities of shorts/trolls at the time?

Magic 8 Ball | May 19, 2019

The answer is NOTHING. I and only a few others have been fighting the battle, from the trenches, and people that know better continue to try and derail the effort. Owners can flag a post and, allegedly, when a post gets enough flags they vanish. I tested the waters on this many times and blatant and obvious trolling did not vanish.

It is very strange administration and, IMO, there is deeper shenanigans going on that should be flushed out.

Magic 8 Ball | May 19, 2019

Oh, to be fair I have seen posts vanish but is unclear exactly how except once I did flag a post and flag count was incremented and post vanished right afterward. Probably not a coincidence and the flag thing probably does work but surprisingly, hardly anything gets flagged away.

It has improved since TESLA changed the rules recently but my tests still show hardly any flags are thrown.

Mike83 | May 19, 2019

I just flag the morons who seem to have time to waste for an unsavory cause. They come and go and reinvent some FUD again.
Real owners spot them like flys on shit. Shorters have lots of money to protect the fossil fuel addicts and make up BS about Tesla which makes the best vehicle money can buy. Owner for 5 years with 3 perfect Teslas driving on EAP for several years with not even a fender bender. In fact we have avoided accidents thanks to the EAP.

Tronguy | May 19, 2019

@Magic 8 Ball: Thanks for the info. Hm. "Flag as Inappropriate". It's the wording that throws me. If it said, "Flag as Suspected Troll" I'd be clicking away like anything. I'll think about it. Thanks, in any case.

Magic 8 Ball | May 19, 2019

Aside from my tests I hardly flag anything (I actually hate censorship). I did not gain "flagging rights" until recently but there still was some obvious spam (advertisements in a foreign language) and I started flagging those to no avail. I don't think I have flagged @WantMy since I do find some value in someone being a devil's advocate. On occasion it does stimulate useful dialog.

casun | May 19, 2019

the only surefire way to eliminate clowns and trolls like wantmy is to not engage them.

syclone | May 20, 2019

A lot of these posts are examples of Darwin's law at work. With these attitudes, some of these posters may not survive to reproduce. auto pilot is not an opportunity to text while you drive. It's an opportunity to stay more alert to your surroundings while the car takes care of the details like lanekeeping, speed , and watching the idiot drivers around you.

spuzzz123 | May 20, 2019

Stop engaging w WantMY. His name use to be WantM3, and when they released the model 3, he claimed to be so disenchanted and furious with the design that he canceled his reservation and changed his name. He will do exactly the same thing once the model Y comes out. He is one of the big 3 trolls - never ever intended to own a Tesla.

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