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CHAdeMO Adapter update? (or CCS1 Adapter)

CHAdeMO Adapter update? (or CCS1 Adapter)

Here in the USA, the only level 3 adapter available for Tesla is the CHAdeMO adapter. However, this is limited to the old standard of 50KW. Originally CHAdeMO was limited to 62.5KW per the international standard itself, and thus charging stations would standardize at 50KW for CHAdeMO and CCS (Combined Charging System or SAE CCS1 in the USA).

However, the CHAdeMO standard was revised to version 2 (aka CHAdeMO 2.0), which in theory supports up to 400KW (higher than any current Tesla Super Charger). Because of this update third party companies such as Charge Point are not building out 250KW (the same speed as the fastest Super Chargers).

Now don't get me wrong, the Super Chargers are great. No need for a separate account or calling up to pay with a credit card. The button on the handle to pop open the charging port or stop charging instead of needing to use the cars touch screen or app is a welcome convenience. Not to mention not needing to use an adapter is so much easier.

But the Super Chargers are as available as other chargers in various regions. Most third parties are regional, though expanding nationally. But because of the regional focus they have a lot more charging stations in a single area than Tesla. Here in the Boston area, we have a couple options in downtown Boston with gen 1 (72KW) Super Chargers (not much faster than 50KW which have a lot more locations in the city, though they are still noticeably faster). Outside the City there are a few Gen 2 (150KW, formerly 120KW, but are really closer to 148, but only if no one else is using the other charger in the pair). I am not aware of any Gen 3 Super Chargers even planned for the area. I see these more being in Connecticut rest areas than in Massachusetts. Especially since most of the Super Chargers in eastern Massachusetts are at Tesla Stores, or some like the one in Mansfield, MA are a little further off the highway than I would normally want to go on a road trip. Mansfield is in a shopping center called Mansfield Crossing about 3-5 minutes off of 495, though if driving through the state, it would be an extra 10 minutes off of I-95 so most people would just continue to the Dedham, MA Tesla Store (though Mansfield is cheaper by $0.01/KW). Neither of which have anything near by, especially late at night, even in the way of restrooms. Though during the day they are both close to shopping plazas. Dedham being a couple blocks from Legacy Place, and Mansfield being technically in the shopping center but the farthest part of the parking lot from any of the stores (technically closer to cross the street for a different shopping center and restaurant). But I am getting off topic.

The point being Massachusetts does have a number of 50KW or higher stations from ChargePoint, EVGO, and Electrify America. Some as high as 350KW (a nearby Rhode Island station at a Walmart is $0.15/min at 350KW, which assuming you can sustain that speed would be cheaper and faster than the closest $0.25/KW Super Charger).

Now I like most people would love a CCS1 to Tesla adapter, but there seems to be some resistance there (though CCS seems to be more common for higher speed chargers currently). Though as there is aready a CHAdeMO adapter designed and working it doesn't seem like it would require much of a change to update that adapter for CHAdeMO 2.0 or the upcoming ChaoJi (CHAdeMO 3.0 900KW backwards compatible) connection. The other benefit to CHAdeMO is it is the only true international standard where the same exact connection is used globally (though also the bulkiest connection). So an adapter to the newer version of this standard would mean an US car that found itself anywhere in the world could still charge.

Now I don't know if any model Tesla could even handle charging at 350KW or the rated 400KW of the CHAdeMO 2.0 connector, but even if it was limited to the 250KW available at Super Chargers the option would be nice. And what would it take, maybe some thicker wires or an updated chip in the adapter? Likely far cheaper and easier to do than a CCS1 adapter from scratch, then again if Tesla wanted the adapter it probably wouldn't take that much engineering to make it happen.

Thoughts?

NKYTA | October 14, 2019

TL;DR. You won’t like my thoughts.

You lost me at SCs not being ubiquitous.

Ask me about my trip from SF to WI in 2014.
Or my trip to Key West from SF in 2015.
Or the multiple >12k road trips around the country in 2016, 2017, 2018 and 2019.
US and Canada.

MA is pretty easy. I’ve been to all of your Boston SCs except Allstate, because it was closed late at night.

Yes, I live south of San Francisco, CA.

Yes, the SC network IS ubiquitous.

“The point being Massachusetts does have a number of 50KW or higher stations from ChargePoint, EVGO, and Electrify America.”

Please shout out when those are usable. Until then. Your are stuck with Tesla chargers. 30-35 kW when paired, 72 at Metropolitan SCs, 75-120 kW when on the road, 250 kW with the latest Tesla hardware. And yet none of them at a car dealership or Walmart.

Sorry I can’t give your post more love, but not sure it deserves it.

VW has all the money in the world, but does...nothing. :—

Scarab | October 14, 2019

I don't recall where I said Super Chargers aren't ubiquitous. They are certainly all over the country. And that fact around Boston with absolutely zero traffic they are only about 20 minutes apart. However we do have traffic, and lots of it. Many of these are 45-90 minutes apart. Now if I am in a hurry for a quick top off, it is almost fast to stop at a Level 2 station than it is to go 30-50 minutes out of my way to a Super Charger to then charge, just to drive 30-50 minutes back to where I needed to be.

If I am in the very popular Tech area of I-95 (Needham to Burlington) there are currently no Super Chargers. So my options are to head into Boston (nightmare). or head south to Dedham which depending on the time of day could be more than an hour from the closer Needham, and two hours from Burlington. Framingham, which is again the same. Or Cambridge which no one in their right mind would drive through if it wasn't their destination. All to take a drive up to New Hampshire (a not uncommon thing to do, there are actually a number of people living in NH that commute to this area for work).

At that point stopping at a Level 2 charger for two hours (getting only about 50 miles of charging) would not only be faster but ultimately give you more useful mileage than heading south to Dedham or West to Natick for a Super Charger. Not only depending on time of day would you be adding 2+ hours just to get back where you started, but a but you would use more of your charge getting there and even more getting back to even make it worth while. (I am not even factoring in the frustration of stop and go traffic and the constant road work).

All while there are several 50+KW chargers along 95 to NH. All this for a 60-80mile trip to Nashua or Manchester NH?

Super Chargers are great for planned road trips where navigation can guide you along the route. But in dense areas with high traffic having only a few isn't always practical. Now there are planned Super Chargers in Waltham and Burlington. But neither location is going to be up and running for a while (dates have been a big moving target) and neither is near the highway. The Burlington one will be several miles up state route 3A which is basically a parking lot (old state route with more traffic than many interstates). The Waltham one will be down state route 20, heading into Boston from the highway, which based on traffic and stop lights is often faster to walk than drive. The ideal place would the the Lexington/Burlington area rest areas what have gas stations and fast food available 24/7 but instead their placement, while helpful, seems to cater more to the thousands who live in these towns with only access to on street parking more than those trying to drive over distance.

These types of quick trips are not uncommon here. With the states being so close together it is possible to randomly go somewhere such as Maine for dinner, realistically if you avoid the city it might only be an hour drive, which is often faster than going into the city and finding parking.

I personally have done several round trips in a day from near Providence, RI to Arlington, MA with only the Dedham and Mansfield Super Chargers "in between". Then again these were also not direct trips, and once in each location would drive around. Starting the day with a full charge I barely made it to the Dedham super charger at 3% (at 2AM) in an older 2014 loaner Model S, and similar in my Model 3 after driving to areas around Arlington and Rockport (though on the Rockport day, had I realized how much driving I was going to be doing after that I would now have the option to stop at Lynnfield, which is far easier to get on and off the highway from than either Dedham (which requires driving further from the highway and then an illegal U-turn or turning around in a bestbuy parking lot over a mile away just to get back to the highway).

And while each time I made it with the car telling me to stay below 65mph to conserve range there were fare more convenient options along the route that would be just as fast or faster to charge at with lower risk of running out of juice and without driving far out of my way along the highway. That isn't even taking into account the Dedham stores annoying habit of leaving cars to charge "overnight" blocking typically at least 2 stalls a night and at most 7 (they try to always leave one for customers over night, though during the day they are all often taken by cars in for service, sadly not by cars waiting for delivery as the delivery team often hands them over on less than half a charge).

So while you focus on extended thousand plus mile road trips, I am focused on daily driving and weekend trips all within a densely populated region with dozens of diverse sub-regions each with their own unique flair.

Techy James | October 15, 2019

I normally make the trip from Cleveland area Oh to Nashville area TN. This trip Tesla is the best option. Matter of fact, I used a Better Route Planner and Compared a Tesla M3 SR+ to a Chevy Bolt on this exact same trip. The trip is 547 miles by Traditional gas car and 8 hrs and 10 min. This same trip using the M3 and 2 stops for charging is 10 Hr 14 Min and requires 10 Min + 22 Min + 23 Min + 19 Min Total charging cost $19.30. Now try this same route in a Chevy Bolt that same trip is now 11 Hrs 30 Minutes and requires Stops of 21 Min + 42 Min * 2 + 37 Min With total charging cost of $25.

reed_lewis | October 15, 2019

An area where there are no Super Chargers is New London, CT. Right now the nearest Super Charger is over an hour drive away.

Anyone who says that wherever they go there have been Super Chargers is being disingenuous. There are many areas where Super Charger locations are not convenient for local travel.

I own the CHAdeMO adapter which I can use with my S or 3.

And @Scarab, I agree with you. It always annoys me when someone posts something like "Well, at the hotel I stayed at, the Super Charger was across the street!" Well, not everyone lives or is going to stay next to a Super Charger.

NKYTA | October 15, 2019

"So while you focus on extended thousand plus mile road trips, I am focused on daily driving and weekend trips all within a densely populated region with dozens of diverse sub-regions each with their own unique flair."

Fair enough.

I'm not denigrating Level 2 chargers, destination chargers, etc. Something like Electrify America currently only gets derision. Will they actually step up and make it an actual "charging network"? Here is to hoping, but my hopes aren't high.

Darthamerica | October 15, 2019

Electrify America is already more densely available in Los Angeles...

Darthamerica | October 15, 2019

Superchargers still have the advantage for long range trips though. Tesla expects users to charge at home because Tesla vehicles have sufficient range that Supercharging "shouldn't" be necessary for day to day driving. With many other EVs however driving range is still a problem and there are many who need to charge after commuting to work.

rxlawdude | October 15, 2019

"Electrify America is already more densely available in Los Angeles..."

"More densely" meaning what, exactly?

TabascoGuy | October 15, 2019

Five is greater than two dozen equals fuzzy math?

Darthamerica | October 15, 2019

It means there are already more EA America charging stalls than SCs in the Los Angeles area.

NKYTA | October 15, 2019

Which is completely false DA.

Go to https://www.electrifyamerica.com/locate-charger and search for Los Angeles. I count 8 operational from Santa Clarita down, from Ontario to the ocean. Most of these have 1-2 CCS, ! Chademo, and occasionally have a J1772.

Go to supercharge.info and look at the same area. 20 SC's, each with 8-24 stalls.

Your math is indeed fuzzy. Actually, it is just downright wrong.

Stop posting crap and FUD.

Darthamerica | October 15, 2019

That's false, there are not 20 SCs in the Los Angeles area. There are about 9. ~16 if we include Urban Chargers. Also Ontario is not Los Angeles area, that's San Bernardino county. If you lived in Los Angeles, after 1pm it will take 2-3 hours to get to the Rancho Cucamonga SC. Castaic is even more difficult. By contrast EA has 31 sites in the Los Angeles area. Please don't comment on an city you aren't familiar with.

NKYTA | October 15, 2019

I gave you the link, from EA's site. There are not 31 sites according to -them-.

https://www.electrifyamerica.com/locate-charger

@Tabasco, do you see 31 operational EA chargers there?

DA, do not EVER tell me not to comment and show your lies.

Darthamerica | October 15, 2019

You need to download the EA app. You'll see the number then. And it is more dense vs SCs as I said. You don't live here, you don't use them, you don't know. I do...

TabascoGuy | October 15, 2019

I only counted 5.

Why would EA's website be inaccurate?

Darthamerica | October 15, 2019

It’s not but just download the app. You will see sites by the numbers.

NKYTA | October 15, 2019

Tabasco, he is being disingenuous yet again by counting those that are Coming soon.
Doh.

A simpleton fact check shows this. I downloaded the app.

TabascoGuy | October 15, 2019

Go figure.

NKYTA | October 15, 2019

Of those open I count 7 CCS, 7 Chademo, 5 J1772 = 19
Current SC stall count for the same area, Burbank to San Clement, as far east as Anaheim = 240
About another 100 Permitted or under construction.

Exercise left for the reader on why 19 !> 240

NKYTA | October 15, 2019

That is across 17 SCs, so his next argument will be that 19 stalls is denser that 17 SCs.
So the goalposts will move again.
Laughable mental contortions.

Darthamerica | October 15, 2019

Go figure that they are already built and will be operational by December. There are more operational EA stations compared to SCs in Los Angeles now.

NKYTA | October 15, 2019

But it is really 19 stalls at 7 open sites, so that argument won’t hold water either.

NKYTA | October 15, 2019

“There are more operational EA stations compared to SCs in Los Angeles now.”

Completely false.

Darthamerica | October 15, 2019

NKTYA you don’t know Los Angeles area do you?

TeslaTap.com | October 15, 2019

Ok, back to CHAdeMO and how "350 kW" really means a lot less. CHADdeMO version 2 specification can go to 400 kW at 1000 volts. What this means is the best they can do on a Tesla 400 V charge is 160 kW (400/1000 * 400). My expectation is the 350 kW versions will be less - 140 kW, so less than a version 2 SC. It's also far from clear how many stalls these 350 kW modules are supporting - so if there are any other cars charging at that location, it could be a lot less.

Realize that there are many limits depending on battery size, vehicle, and age. For example, an S/X 60/70/75 will never have a charge rate above 105 kW no matter what is available. A Model 3 can go to 250 kW on a V3 Supercharger. On the best CHAdeMO, it will be considerably less.

So marketing is very misleading. Yes, it may do 350 kW at 1000 volts when no other cars are attached IF such a car existed that can handle that voltage. I'm not aware of any cars using 1000-volt charging nor any that have been announced. Porche has announced 800-volt charging but is limited to 150 kW, and this is for CSS, not CHAdeMO.

Darthamerica | October 15, 2019

No, it’s not limited to 150kW: https://youtu.be/AZ693XiST4c

TeslaTap.com | October 15, 2019

Interesting - A bit confusing as the specs say 50 kW standard, 150 kW for optional 400v charging and 270 kW for 800 v charging (optional?). As this thread is really about CHAdeMO, so far the Taycan can't charge at all with any CHAdeMO.

Darthamerica | October 15, 2019

Doesn’t seem so. Maybe an adapter exist but I don’t know...

NKYTA | October 15, 2019

DA, you didn’t learn how to count did you?

You were wrong, admit it.

Darthamerica | October 15, 2019

I’m not wrong, you are. And you aren’t familiar with LA. I used the word dense for a reason.

NKYTA | October 15, 2019

Whatever. Keep ignore those pesky facts.

SamO | October 15, 2019

EA is a clusterfuck. I am in Los Angeles and have used every Supercharger in the area. There is nothing even close to LA’s density.

Technically, Southern California which includes the greater Los Angeles area ( LA, OC, SD, San Bernardino, Ventura, Santa Barbara and Riverside) has 51 Supercharger with over 400 stalls. Clearly, not enough for the Tesla population.

But if you include permitted and under construction, that is another 86 stalls and 8 new stations. His only includes what has been found, not what has been announced.

rxlawdude | October 15, 2019

@Darth, while I questioned your intelligence in the past, your veracity is sorely lacking.

Bald faced lies are obvious to the sentient.

Darthamerica | October 15, 2019

Rx you need to learn what density means. Anyway it doesn't matter some of you are so indoctrinated that you won't believe facts until it hits you in the face. It will be obvious in Q1 when all they treads about people wanting CSS adapters start showing up.

NKYTA | October 15, 2019

And...wrong again.

rxlawdude | October 16, 2019

@darth, I understand dense. I've read your posts.

reed_lewis | October 16, 2019

Forget about the LA area (at least in my case, it does not benefit me at all).

There are areas where there is a lack of super chargers in the New England area. I have the CHAdeMO adapter for that very reason. I would love to see a CCS adapter also for the S/X/3 USA cars.

It is not an either/or situation. If you are somewhere where there is no super charger, but there is a CHAdeMO or CCS port, then that port works for you. To say that since Super Chargers are so much faster, so why would anyone use anything else discounts the availability of the ports.

Darthamerica | October 16, 2019

Reed, European cars are getting CSS ports and the Superchargers are adding CSS cables. That would be a huge benefit in LA because there are many CSS stations popping up. At minimum offer an adapter and upgrade the car charging system so that we can use it. Would immediately double the number of chargers for many people and reduce the burden on Supercharger locations. https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.teslarati.com/tesla-supercharger-dual-c...

NKYTA | October 16, 2019

Here we go again.

"Would immediately double the number of chargers for many people..."

There are 240 SC stalls, adding 7 CCS EA chargers is not "doubling".

Define the doubling for "many people"?

rxlawdude | October 16, 2019

@NKYTYA, it's just about time for me to put Densemurica on the twit filter. He's beyond hope. And severely math challenged.

reed_lewis | October 17, 2019

I know about the European CCS ports on cars and the dual cables in that area. Since there is a large quantity of both Super Chargers and cars in the USA already, I doubt that Tesla will go to the CCS port for the USA market. Furthermore the USA CCS port is different than the European CCS port anyways.

To me it is about choice. I currently can plug my car into any plug except for a CCS plug. It would be nice to be able to use the CCS plugs also. Yes, I know that Super Chargers are faster, but there are areas where convenient Super Chargers simply do not exist.

Darthamerica | October 17, 2019

Such as the South Bay and Palos Verdes Peninsula where there are multiple CSS chargers.

NKYTA | October 17, 2019

@reed, I'm not at all arguing against CCS.

Just correcting the math of the troll.

Scarab | October 17, 2019

WOW! WOW! WOW!. How did this get so off topic. There are so many people (and by so many I really mean only a small handful that are more full of themselves than they are full of facts) that completely missed the point.

No one cares if you like Electrify America or not. There is absolutely no reason to bash them or any other third party in anyway.

Stall count, while important, doesn't have any baring what so ever on the purpose of this thread. While having more stalls at a single location is nice (though more stalls are debatable at Tesla service stations as they can wave their own idle fees and leave cars parked there all day and night). The point is it doesn't matter how many stalls you have if those stalls are in the wrong direction or just in general really out of your way, some might say REALLY INCONVENIENT!

Now regardless of if you like or hate any specific third party, no one says you ever have to use them. Personally I don't care! I don't personally plan on joining every possible network out there as some even charge monthly membership fees which is an automatic NO to me.

The POINT I was making is, while Super Chargers extremely useful. Especially for road trips! Some of their locations to me personally are questionable even for those road trips. And MORE IMPORTANTLY they are not EVERYWHERE. There are a lot of them YES! They are always adding more, DEFINITELY. But right now and in the near future (next 3-5+ years) there are many places where it is extremely inconvenient to visit one for a quick top off of your batteries when taking an unplanned mid-range trip. There ARE however a number of DC fast chargers operated by third parties (regardless if you like them. Regardless of questions about how fast they will really charge your car based on the chosen connection they are still faster than Level 2 chargers and often can and will be faster than going in the wrong direction or towards heavy traffic to charge.

To that point, it would be nice to have an adapter which can take advantage of these third parties. Now as Tesla wont allow these companies to install a third connection using the Tesla connector the only option is an adapter. We have one adapter option now which is the CHAdeMO 1.0 adapter. It does not seem like it would take a lot of development cost by Tesla from other areas to update this adapter to a new version supporting CHAdeMO 2.0 for faster charging.

Personally I would prefer a CCS1 adapter as it would be more compact and could potentially even double as replacement for the J1772 adapter making it so new cars could get one single adapter and charge almost anywhere. However I recognize that might require most cost to engineer.

Now, I welcome comments, but seriously if all you are going to do is personally attack this actual concern I have personally experienced problems with please know I really don't care. If you don't like a specific or even all potential third parties, I also don't care. If you don't like another member of the Tesla community, NO ONE CARES! NONE of those things are in anyway related to topic or in anyway, shape, or form helpful or productive. So please stay on topic.

Darthamerica | October 17, 2019

Scarab I'm noticing that EA locations usually have a 4 CSS to 1 ChAedMO/J1772 ratio. So a CSS adapter would definitely be more helpful for DC fast charging.

Scarab | October 17, 2019

Around the north east (New England) Charge Point is the biggest EV Changing company. With EVgo coming in second as they have a foothold in a lot of shopping malls (most malls around here are owned by the same company, Simon). I am only aware of a couple EA locations near Cape Cod.

For most ChargePoint and EVgo locations it is the same physical charging station that has both connections, though only one can be used at a time. Though at least around here many of the CHAdeMO connections are version 1 limited to 50KW, though I have heard reports that a lot are in the process of being upgraded. Depending on the age of the station some are limited to 50KW for CCS, but many are higher (so it makes sense for them to upgrade the CHAdeMO connection on the stations as the station itself can already handle the higher wattage, it is just the connector and cable that limits it (and maybe some software). So for that and several independent stations I have found only have CCS without a single CHAdeMO connector. Hence me thinking CCS would be more helpful (that and it should in theory be less bulky).

It is worth noting that at those mall locations only the DC Fast charging seem to be charging a fee for use. The nearby J1772 connections are often free, but they are cheaper to operate. But then again J1772 are all over the place around here (mostly Charge Point and many are free though not all).

roundish2 | October 19, 2019

Korea no longer supports CHAdeMO.
Therefore, the new charging facility has no CHAdeMO and only supports CCS1 Adapter.
The absence of a CCS1 adapter in Korea, where supercharging is absolutely lacking, means a great deal of difficulty.
The Model 3 has been coming in since October 14 and Korean consumers have been in great confusion.
Tesla wonders if there are any countermeasures against this.

roundish2 | October 19, 2019

Korea no longer supports CHAdeMO.
Therefore, the new charging facility has no CHAdeMO and only supports CCS1 Adapter.
The absence of a CCS1 adapter in Korea, where supercharging is absolutely lacking, means a great deal of difficulty.
The Model 3 has been coming in since October 14 and Korean consumers have been in great confusion.
Tesla wonders if there are any countermeasures against this.

TeslaTap.com | October 19, 2019

@roundish2 - Are you talking about North Korea? No Superchargers there. South Korea has over 20 supercharger locations, including the island of Jeju. Looks like South Korea also has a 100 or so destination chargers too. Not sure why Koreans are confused about Tesla as looks like they are the only practical game in town. I could see other non-Tesla EVs charging solutions as quite confusing like it is here in the USA.