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Gen 1 Model S Supercharging Speeds

Gen 1 Model S Supercharging Speeds

Hello!
For those of you that have Gen 1 Model S, what are your current supercharging speeds? and have any of you gotten service work or battery replacement due to slow supercharging? I recently took a small road trip and supercharged about 4 times. All supercharging sessions did not go any higher than 50kWh. I arrived at superchargers with low battery (anywhere from 5% and 10%) and I would have thought that the car would charge as fast as possible until it hit 30% and then taper but it stayed steady at around 50kwh. I Supercharged at 3 different SC and I moved stalls to make sure it was not the stall. One charging session I was the only car in 8 stalls and when I plugged still max it hit was 51-52kWh.

Just trying to see if this is common for a 2013 MS 60... or if I should attempt to make this a warranty issue.

Thank you for your input!

jordanrichard | December 16, 2019

Where are you? Two things need to be nice and warm to get a full charging rate, the battery and the actual charger. So obviously one coming off the highway the battery would be up to temperature, but if it's supper cold out, those chargers need some time to warm up. I have seen it where as I was charging, the kWh would go up.

Renzo | December 16, 2019

I live in south FL (Fort Lauderdale) and my road trip was just to Orlando. I do not think temperature was a factor.

nothotpocket | December 16, 2019

The most I see on my 2015 is 60 kWh, give or take.

Bighorn | December 16, 2019

A 60 kWh battery is going to have lower peak rates than 85s. That said, there’s been some slowing and adjusting of peak rates per SOC recently. For years the sum of kWs and SOC hung around 125 in the 85s. That dropped to ~107 a few months ago and has subsequently improved to ~114. So in practice, you’d expect to see about 84 kW at a 30% SOC. The difference in peak charging between 60 and 85 was probably close to 30 kW, so if there is a similar taper profile, charging in the 50s may be the current norm. Best to get more inout from 60 owners to confirm.

freeewilly | December 16, 2019

I have better luck using urban charger than super charger, I get higher charge rate at urban charger (~70 kWh) most of the time, get very inconsistent charge rate at super chargers, regardless how busy the charging station was.

I drives Gen 1 S60

sklancha | December 16, 2019

I don't normally pay much attention, but since I recently read about the slower speeds, I paid a little closer attention this weekend. Stopped to charge while I grapped a coffee and break while running around town this weekend. Was at 40%. Peaked at 88kWh, which quickly dropped to 84kWh. I have a 2014 S85. I was the only car at the supercharger and weather was ideal.

vpoz | December 17, 2019

Pre refresh 85d , 55k miles
Agree supercharging speeds seem to have dropped off.
At appx 20% soc charging starts at 80Kw but within minutes starts dropping to 60 or so then slowly tapers to 50ish while moving to 50% soc

trevor58 | December 19, 2019

2013 S85. Can’t get higher than 95 for SOC + kW now under the best conditions. Previously was consistently 120.

Hoping it’s temporary and will come back with a future software update.

sofaguy | December 19, 2019

2015 85d. repeatedly complained to tesla about this issue. Told it is normal. HA
when new overs 100 until near end. Now tops at 50ish, backs off to 25 - 30 real soon. Now have a Tesla with so-so charging instead of supercharging! Tesla will not help.

PhillyGal | December 19, 2019

I don't have numbers to share but our 2014 S85 has been showing pretty pathetic supercharging speeds lately. I won't pretend I'm not disappointed but it also doesn't affect my daily life or use of the car much. Will just affect how long it takes my hubs to travel for work 1-2 times a month and family road trips a few times a year.

kevincwong | December 19, 2019

I've noticed slower Supercharging speeds on our 2013 MS85 starting in June 2019. Rumor on the internet was that Tesla's software update slowed the peak rate and taper of the recharging session. The speculation was that this was done out of an abundance of caution given a handful of recent battery fires shortly after Supercharging. Others have speculated that Tesla did this to reduce its exposure to warranty claims on rapidly degrading battery pack owners as the population of owners reach their 8 year warranty coverage. Folks might be on to something because Tesla has recently changed the warranty coverage from unlimited mileage for the 85kWh to 125,000 miles.

I avoided Supercharging our 85 throughout the summer but tested it every once and again to make sure it still worked. I found that the "urban" 72kW pedestals were consistently giving me the peak rate with a SOC% below 20% and a warm battery. V2 charging was wildly inconsistent. I was getting some sessions as low as 8kW, 32kW, 40kW, and 64kW. It was annoying to suddenly have a car with less capabilities and that would require drastically longer charging times for multi-Supercharging road-trips. However, I was able to get 127kW back in November during a trip and went from 12%-80% in about 50 minutes.

I'm never sure if the slow Supercharging rate is due to my car's hardware, my car's software, or the Supercharger hardware. I've been to lots where I could get no higher than 32kW, but a Model X would pull in and get the full 72kW. I've also been to a lot where no one could get above 24kW too. I wish I could jump in a time-machine and go back to May 2019 when none of this was an issue for me.

Bighorn | December 19, 2019

@kevin
You’re spreading a false rumor that a few ignorant people propagated. Tesla can’t change the 85’s warranty after the fact. Still unlimited miles for 8 years. Try not to be so gullible to conspiracies.

jordanrichard | December 19, 2019

BH +1. I did post a thread about a change I saw listed on my account to the warranty on my S85, but never said it was a change to Tesla policy. I questioned it, that is for sure, but that was it.

Bighorn | December 19, 2019

@jr
Not meant to impugn your input. I immediately noted it was likely a typo not worthy of further thought, while a couple latched onto it as a dystopian fact. RaceLab was on a negativistic tear that day.

jordanrichard | December 19, 2019

BH, oh I know. I was making it clear for those that did latch onto it.

Aerodyne | December 19, 2019

BH...thanks for nipping that in the bud...FUD, even unintentional, never sleeps...

hikerockies | December 22, 2019

@Renzo: You can see a recent supercharging curve for my 2014 S85 here - http://hikerockies.blogspot.com/2019/11/tesla-model-s-supercharging-rate...

xpower | December 22, 2019

And I think mines slow.
As discussed in multiple threads SC has gotten slower with recent SW updates.

But if I arrive at <10% in my 2014 MS60 I start at around 90 - 100 kw but then it starts to go down fairly quickly.
Previously the charge ramp down would have been slower, peak charge seems unaffected.

tes-s | December 23, 2019

My 2013 S85 starts around 116kW, then tapers starting around 15% SOC.

SOC% + kW = about 112 for me for 20% to 80% SOC. It used to be a little higher - I think it is a lower now because of the aging battery.

Renzo | December 23, 2019

@hikerockies Thank you for that chart! seems like we will have to put up with slower charge rates/longer times... I just hope the Tesla noobs that just got their model 3 don't judge us when they see how long we are using the SC stalls for...

Bighorn | December 23, 2019

@hikerockies.
Nice data. The 100s have charged about 40 kW higher all along. Your 85 is charging slower than most. Sum now (kW + SOC) is about 114 on my 2013, which is up from 108 earlier in the fall. Originally was 125. You only saw about 90. Also, I don’t think the S preconditions navigating to the SC like the 3, and peak charging requires battery temps above 90F. Your 100 may have been advantaged by the additional 30 minute warm up.

Bighorn | December 23, 2019

The battery temp theory is corroborated by the steady increase in the 85 summation and the narrowing of the delta vs the 100.

TeslaTap.com | December 23, 2019

To buck the trend here, my 2016 S75 used to max out at 85-95 kW, which was fairly expected. The day after Thanksgiving at a full 12 stall V2 Supercharger I arrived at 9% SOC and got 48 kW for about 5 minutes, which is good for the 2nd arrival at the paired stall. I also navigated to the location, so the battery should have been pre-heated.

When the car in my paired Supercharger left. It jumped to 122 kW and stayed there for 10 minutes or so before slowly tapering off. I've never seen 122 kW since I bought the car!

A note on urban chargers - these should provide 72 kW to all cars as there is no pairing involved. It's interesting that some are getting normal power at urban Superchargers and less at paired Superchargers without being paired (i.e. full power). Not sure what to make of that. For those that seem to always get low < 50 kW Supercharging, it would be interesting to try an Urban Supercharger at low SOC to see what happens. I know that's easier said than done.

Bighorn | December 23, 2019

@TT
I see no indication that the Model S treats the battery differently on navigating to a SC. I've also seen 72 kW chargers that seem to be shared based on halved output, prior to these firmware adjustments even.

TeslaTap.com | December 23, 2019

@Bighorn - Yep, I wondered about the pre-heating. Not sure I can tell any difference either, but mentioned in just in case it does have an effect. I was also doing 100 miles of freeway driving before arriving to the SC. The weather was around 60F.

Bighorn | December 23, 2019

Battery heating and cooling appears to be on a thermostat. It's readily obvious by the messaging that the Model 3 preconditions en route to the SC. Perhaps the newer Ses have different programming.

Battery would be plenty warm, possibly hotter than optimal, after 100 miles.

Qwiksilver | December 27, 2019

2013 85S 78,000 miles

@BH. Correct about the warranty

@Renzo. At superchargers (alone with no other cars charging, with normal ambient temps) my Model S charges above 100kW for a few minutes, then quickly drops to 67kW. Not even close to the charging speeds prior to Tesla throttling back charging speeds with the update.
Welcome to the club.

RedShift | December 27, 2019

@Renzo

2013 S60 owner here. Supercharging speed is limited to about 50 KW for me too. It is so damn slow, it almost feels like it is a plot to make me upgrade.

Seriously.

RedShift | December 27, 2019

@tes

I thought about the aging battery too, but my S60 still charges to 198-200 miles down from the original 208. That shows that the battery is in good condition.

Renzo | December 27, 2019

@Qwiksilver... thanks for the warm welcome, LOL. what sucks is that I called tesla customer service the other day about it while I was supercharging, and the rep could see my stats and stated 'you should NOT be charging so slow...etc, etc" so it seems like they are not educated on older gen1-2 battery packs which is frustraing because then I feel like im getting the run around from Tesla as a whole... meaning:

I call customer service, they tell me something clearly HAS to be wrong, because I should NOT be charging so slow, so I make appointment for service based on their suggestion.

I show up to Service Center and then the techs tell me "welcome to the Older Model S club" there is nothing wrong with your car. (I have an appointment coming up on the 30th).

so this makes me feel one of two ways... either Service Techs are trying to NOT work on my car. or the service rep was not educated properly on my model/year car.

Either way, I end up feeling like I had bad customer service.

tessnme | December 27, 2019

I agree. My 2016 S85 can't Supercharge any faster than 50kw. The phone support guy says something is wrong. I suspect the service guys will disagree. I'm trading it in on a brand new S this afternoon. It will be someone else's problem now. I must be crazy. Tesla wins, the customer loses. I'll avoid supercharging for the new car unless I'm on a road trip. When I go to the local Supercharger I save $5 on electricity and spend $5 on a Mocha while I'm waiting. What's the point?

bryan.hopkins | December 27, 2019

Just adding a data point here, 2015 MS 85D, 35600 miles, software 2019.40.2.3, over Thanksgiving and Christmas road trips, my SOC + charging rate = 108 - 112. Second owner here so can't speak to the first ~21000 miles, but the last 14000 miles have mostly been charging at home (HPWC) or work (J1772) with occasional supercharging for road trips etc.

Renzo | December 28, 2019

I keep seeing the SOC + Charge rate equation, can someone explain that? and what is the "optimal" number that one should be at to let them know battery is healthy, and at what number should one be concerned?

Thank you.

tes-s | December 28, 2019

@red - no question some people are seeing lower supercharger speeds not explained by battery age or degradation.

My speeds are only slightly lower, and I have lost about 10% of range after 6+ years, 176k miles, and lots of supercharging. Just saying I don't think I'm seeing a significant or unexpected slowdown.

RedShift | December 28, 2019

I think this is a broad hammer approach by Tesla. In order to prevent a possible battery degradation which would eat into the warranty related service costs, they have decided to do preventive slowdown of charging rates.

The charging rates are lower than even Chademo. Barely above the 30 mph I get at home. If I take the car on a long distance journey, it’s going to be a long drive.

I am not happy, I will talk to Tesla about this.

RedShift | December 28, 2019

@tes

I realize you and a few have seen less slowdown than others. I don’t know whether they are going by battery type. Mine is type A high is the oldest.

RedShift | December 28, 2019

high=which

TeslaTap.com | December 28, 2019

@Red, since a number of cars have huge mileage numbers without major degradation while using Superchargers frequently, I doubt any change was made due to warranty concerns. Consider the S and X do not have any stipulation on battery replacement due to degradation.

It's far more likely due to a concern for battery failures and fire. Perhaps they are being overly cautious. It may also be related to a specific battery pack and cells in that pack. Tesla has quite a few different cells over the years and I've yet to see what else may be the consistent factor that some cars have slower supercharger speeds and some are faster. It may also be something like they are being more sensitive to cold/heat - and if the cells are not in the ideal range, perhaps a narrower temperature range than before, the Supercharging is reduced. All conjecture on my part for now.

Bighorn | December 28, 2019

@Renzo
Several years back, I came up with a formula to verify that supercharging was performing properly. It was based on the 85 kWh battery and is more linear than subsequent batteries. Basically, SOC + kW = 125 +/- 7 with the larger numbers presenting early and gradually falling. So if you arrived with 15% SOC, you’d start out around 117 kW and steadily taper as the battery filled. By 90% SOC, you’d be at around 28 kW.
This metric has been used to judge subsequent supercharging speed changes. The summation dropped to about 107 this fall, though has been slightly boosted to 114 based on my well-traveled 2013 P85+. Even my fast charging P3D- sees similar charging rates at high SOCs.

johncrab | December 28, 2019

S85, late 2014, 51k(mi)

Bighorn’s derived formula is pretty darn sound. That said, I have noticed a drop too. I make the same road trip every month. Same distances, conditions, etc. Supercharging used to start at 116kw and begin dropping off. Now it starts at a max of 92 and drops off but more precipitously than before. At one stop this gives me longer to have lunch. The trip is just over 6 hours in a petrol car. In 2014, charging added 1.5 hours for a total of 7.5h. Charging to the same levels, the trip is now 8.5h, so that is adding 42% to the travel time. That’s a bit much and I’ve gone back to ICE for this road trip because I can put the total 5h(r/t) to better use than hanging around and killing time. All of the above said, I would rather have them do this than cook my battery. I can make an informed choice about what I drive and only have one 10m stop instead of three at 2.5h combined. I miss the nav system of the S but I like having the time back.

What this is telling us is that the original charging concept which was used was overly optimistic and millions of miles of road data have caused Tesla to be more conservative. Until there is a major change in battery tech, this will remain the Achilles heel of all EVs and we are stuck with it.

paul.hook | March 4, 2020

Sorry to dig up an older thread, but I thought it might be of use to others to compare datasets as mine is much worse than hikerockies.

My 2015 85D with 75k is barely ever supercharged - I only really use it when going on holiday to continental Europe from the UK, so I've only just noticed the issue a couple of weeks ago, just before we go to drive to the French Alps.

Today I took my lunch break to drive and supercharge to note charge rates, really hoping against hope that my last supercharge was an anomaly rather than the new norm. My starting rate today at 44% SOC was a lowly 49KW, and then dropped mostly linearly down to 33KW at 66% SOC. I estimate that what was previously an 18 hour journey including stops will now be closer to 25 hours; from memory my charge rate summer 2019 when we drove to Austria started at 110KW at 10% SOC and dropped to about 40KW at 80%.

These are journeys with my wife and two kids; we've switched from flying to driving purely for CO2 reasons - it costs us more in wear and tear than the flights would have. I will update after the journey, but if my estimate is true then despite wanting to do our bit, the journey times may push us back to flying which is truly sad.

To say I'm disappointed is an understatement.

Bighorn | March 4, 2020

@paul
Probably because the battery wasn’t fully warm when you began. I still see rates over 100kW on my trips after 293k miles and almost 7 years. Slightly faster than last fall.

Mike G | March 4, 2020

5 year old 85d model just couple of weeks ago on a trip to Montreal and outside temperature -7 Celsius (~19 Fahrenheit). It started at 127 KW with battery at 7%, but quickly dropped to 90 at 21%. When it reached 50% the charge rate was 58 KW. I left at 56% and charging rate of 51 KW. On a plus side I never got such a high rate of charge before - 127kw! But on a minus side it tapered much slower a year ago on my previous road trip. Overall this charging session - from 7% to 56% took 30 minutes, which is definitely slower than before. Tesla support said it’s normal for these outside temperatures and to try in the summer to see if it improves.

Jesperj | March 4, 2020

This issue is not just affecting Gen1 vehicles. I have a late 2016 AP2, MS75D, and I have been having exactly this problem since late last year. I'm routinely getting 24-30 kW at superchargers. There is at least one other thread on this exact topic in the Model S forum, so this is affecting a significant number of people.

I've raised this to Tesla multiple times and they keep telling me that it is due to $externalFactors. However, based on the number of people who are reporting this type of issue I'm increasingly convinced that a recent software update changed this behavior and adversely impacted older vehicles.

Perhaps if more people reported this to Tesla as a problem they'd be more likely to investigate a bit more?

tes-s | March 4, 2020

"I'm routinely getting 24-30 kW at superchargers."

Limited by SOC, temperature, or pairing.

If not one of those, contact service.

GHammer | March 4, 2020

"This issue is not just affecting Gen1 vehicles. I have a late 2016 AP2, MS75D,"

Even though that is a "facelift" car, 75's are still Gen 1 design batteries.

DonS | March 4, 2020

To be clear, the first few thousand Model S (85, P85), including the founders series, had a maximum charge rate of 90kW. Somewhere around serial number 5k-6k, the maximum bumped to 120kW.

So which Gen 1 are we talking about?

GHammer | March 4, 2020

I knew someone would bring up A series batteries which is why I said "Gen1 design" A Batteries have different cells so they were limited from the onset but the pack design is the same through early 90 batteries. So we are talking about 60's (which were also always limited) 70's, 75's, 85's and early 90's.

GHammer | March 4, 2020

I guess I should point out that there are also original 60's and software locked 60's, original 60's were always limited, software locked were limited later.

NKYTA | March 4, 2020

And some us have upgraded to B.

;-)

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