I saw that. Tesla had taken out their own patents on heat pumps a few years back, apparently they came up with one that works for their architecture. Well that is one more criticism we won't have to hear about any more.
I don't really like giving Lambert clicks but the comments on the article are just as crazier than the crap that goes on here.
Plenty of people in cold Norway think the Tesla does very well in the cold.
They do pathetic in -10 and below weather
20 000 miles driven
So do humans
Humans are far less efficient at transportation in extreme cold weathers, that’s why they use cars
The heat pump is a brilliant addition. Doesn't necessarily help those godforsaken souls in a Chicago winter, but for everyone else it's a much more efficient way to heat the car in temps down to, perhaps, freezing (yes, the thin-blooded amongst us like to heat the cabin when it's 50 degrees F outside). Unless Tesla has invented some fantastic new refrigerant, there is certainly a backup resistive heater for those below-zero drives (probably exactly the same as in the Model 3).
And for those who haven't figured it out, FishEV's contributions to this forum are IMHO indistinguishable from those of a shill paid to create consternation and FUD here. It's best to simply ignore whoever they are, and not engage.
Yes, pretty sure fish criticized the 3 for not having a heat pump
Yes Fish talks out of both sides of his/her/their arse
Model Y Owners Manual:
quote: " I don't really like giving Lambert clicks but the comments on the article are just as crazier than the...."
I think Fred does a great job. Is it jealousy that you dont like him, his lack of 'background', candid style or his pic?
Keeps up a very informative site. Deserves his Roadster2.
Fred does an OK job
Read with a grain of salt his articles
Don’t have to boycott him
Great addition - the Y will definitely be more popular in colder climates anyway.
I think its a misunderstandment. ACs have a heat pump. Heating systems use heat pumps. AC in model 3 could have been used for heating in reverse cycle but they dont use it maybe because of frosting on the heat exchanger.
Model 3 has a heat pump but only for cooling in summer. Not used for heating in winter.
In Model 3 the AC works in winter to condense the humidity and get rid of it. This is what is meant by your A/C will still be working when its cold outside.I believe that in winter when the HVAC sucks air, first it uses the A/C to lower the humidity and then heats it up with the heating element. The extra power consumed to remove the humidity is to some extent balanced by the less energy you need to heat the air as you removed the humidity.
Should be the same for Model Y
“They do pathetic in -10 and below weather
20 000 miles driven”
So you seem to be saying that model 3s are pathetic in weather this cold...I thought heat pumps were ineffective at temps this cold and the main reason to have one is to make moderately cold weather heating more efficient. Am I offbase here?
"I think Fred does a great job."
Fred had no business crying about pricing and needling Musk to do something about it. The 5K price "adjustment" on the P model when it came out (granted Musk did not have to do it) was something started by Lambert and it ended up being, IMO, unfair to a lot of others.
Amen to that M8B. Two other grouses. 1) Elektrek is a blog about EVs in general but owes a special debt of gratitude to Tesla so he really bit the hand that fed him there (don’t forget how much he is also benefitting from referral program too ...something that was overly generous to bloggers). And 2) as a so called journalist, this was a serious abuse of power to stir up this sentiment for his own personal gain. I guess journalism ethics went out the window in the tech era though.
@spuzzz Exactly, Lambert used his platform to beat up Musk on pricing concerning a model he owned, not the other models. Definitely a biting of the hand that feeds him.
“ concerning a model he owned, not the other models.”
At that moment, only the Performance had it price slashed by $5k
There were S models, prior, that had price changes that he did not squawk about is how I understood it.
I am really interested if the model y will have a heat pump. But all of you just talk about some guy you don't like. Why do we need to read all this nonsense?
It has been confirmed the Y has a heat pump and that info. has already been shared in this thread . Talk heat pump if you want, nobody is stopping you. You decided to not talk heat pump and just beat up on other people???
That's great news.
Where is the confirmation? I only see heat pump mentioned in a schematic in theUser's manual and in the control tips
"I only see heat pump mentioned in a schematic in theUser's manual"
Because its seems you cant understand, i explain again. A/C are heat pumps.We still have no confirmation that this heat will be used for cooling and heating
Heat pump is a generic term for a system that actively moves heat from one source to another. Hanging yourself up on what you THINK it is, well ROTFLMAO.
Terminology wars, really?
It shows a heat pump in the schematic, but no cabin heater. I assume it’s used in place of the cabin heater. How much more efficient it may be I can’t guess.
So one theory is that it uses heat produced from the drive system and pumps that to the cabin. Another possibility is there is a supplemental resistive heater inside the "heat pump" that is just not labeled as a separate component.
EVs perform extremely well in the cold. Their range isn't great, but starting, traction, preheating, etc are excellent. Just don't expect 300 Miles range in the cold.
Found the patent:
If they implemented the entire patent it appears they have a few sources of heat they can use. Blower motors create heat and it appears they can run the blower motor inefficiently to create even more heat (creative) and it appears heat from the battery and running drive motors inefficiently can also be used.
I didn't notice the cabin heating element is missing in the schematic.
So 2 points indicate that a refrigerating heating system is used.
And fact that it will still need 4kW resistive heater when the car is cold. But it may help at moderate temps but then need for heat will be lower anyway.
It is labeled "heat pump" they know what they are doing.
It does not need a 4kW resistive heater, read the patent.
There's no reason, from anything I've seen, to suspect that there isn't a resistive or similar kind of heater as well.
Remember that heat pumps just move heat around, they don't create heat from some energy storage mechanism.
With the Superbottle thermal management system, it would be easy to use heat pump to move heat from a place where there is extra heat and a resistive heater to add heat to the system if there isn't any extra heat available.
I don't know if this is how the Model Y works but, given the brilliant thermal design of the Model 3, it is perfectly conceivable.
On the other hand, the "heat pump" may just be referring to the compressor for the Air Conditioner.
At this point it is all conjecture:
Paging Sandy Monro . . .
I'll also add that Jameson Dow, the author, has been around EVs for over a decade and is a long-time Tesla Roadster owner. He is 100% sincere and quite credible.
"This disclosure describes multiple methods to improve performance (COP/efficiency and capacity), and therefore also provides ways to remove a cabin air high voltage PTC heater."
From the patent.
“At this point it is all conjecture”
Agreed. My conjecture is that they’re managing cabin heat similarly to how they’re managing battery heat, but using forced air rather than liquid.
Also, while there certainly may be resistive heating, if there is I don’t think it’s in the same place as M3, and that it’s buried within another component.
That diagram is identifying HV components for first responders. If they don’t show one in and of itself, there isn’t one in and of itself.
First responders need to know about the AC/HVAC system in a car?
If they need to cut it open (think jaws of life), they need to know the HV components.
Also damaged vehicles may expose HV without manual destruction.
Compare that with the M3 emergency response guide’s diagram which has a dedicated “cabin heater.”
A big problem that TRADITIONAL heat pumps have in very cold weather is defrosting the condenser coils (I think the outside ones are the condenser coil when heating.)
But if the Model Y coils are not "Air -warmed" then the won't freeze and therefor won't need defrosting.
I'll be interested in finding out how well these work in really cold weather.
This design is not a air (environment) to air (cabin) heating refrigeration system, where you pump heat from the environment continuously with COP much greater than 1. Heat pump will source heat from the battery, add more heat by using inefficiently the drive unit and other smaller motors and also add heat through the A/C compressor. There can be COP above 1 as long the heat source (battery) has available heat to dissipate.
If the battery cannot provide more heat (its temperature is too low) then te COP=1. This means you are using drive unit, AC compressor and other smaller motors to transform electric energy to heat. PTC does that with 100% efficiency. Why produce the heat in the drive unite and through complex circuits transport it to the cabin. You will have heat dissipation towards the environment. It sound to me stupid to run all this equipment (compressor, drive unit, motors) for a COP less than 1. Just use a heating element....
I can testify that my home heat pump, supposedly a very efficient model, quits when the temperatures reach -10ºc. Then it’s time to throw a log in the fireplace. What happens in the Y?
And on another level, in the Model 3 when you switch to the channel with the fireplace, the heating elements i.e. the baseboards, supply plenty of instantaneous heat. Is that channel deleted in the Y? ;-)
The patent is all about how to get rid of the resistive heater without the compromises of a traditional heat pump.
Move heat from unwanted areas to wanted areas. If there is not enough heat to move around to meet demand then create more heat with deliberate inefficiencies.
If you want details, read the patent.
Is that channel deleted in the Y? ;-) -gparrot
It is there, just in a different way.
@danton and @Earl: Thank you for asking the right questions and trying to get to the answer to the question :"Does the Y have a heat pump for cooling and heating the cabin?" A few here are know-it-alls and think the question has been answered and we need to move on. Not so fast. I live in a very cold weather state, and my older Leafs (Leaves?) do a very good job of heating the cabin down to only 0 degrees F. At that temperature, the heat pump rattles like marbles in a can, but produces heat. Any colder than that, and the PTC heater solely heats the cabin with no heat pump running. I hope Tesla has a PTC heater also, because I think it needs a backup for extreme cold.
The patent describes a system that doesn't transfer heat from the environment. THis has nothing to do with what other car makers are using and will not increase the range significantly.
Please page Sandy....
"I can testify that my home heat pump, supposedly a very efficient model, quits when the temperatures reach -10ºc. "
Mine struggles at 40 and down. Three of us with solar power and heat pumps all have booster systems. I put in two 2kw base board systems downstairs which go off and on constantly as the heat pumps cannot maintain 72 deg in the house in colder weather.
On the car, once the motors are generating enough heat it should lower the 16 mile an hour range penalty of the 4kw resistive heater but that takes a while. Even the 7kW+ Preconditioning heater takes a while to get heat moving and consumes more energy than resistive heater at 4kW to get there. The energy usage there is literally off the charts if you watch it on the Energy/Consumption graph at the 5 mile setting.
If you have a cold soaked car either at home or at work, how would it heat up? Without a resistive heater it would have to activate the 7kW+ motor waste heat generation system and that would then need to heat up all the cooling fluid which would take a lot of energy and time almost like waiting for the ICE heat pump to work.
So below whatever your cabin temp is set at, you'd need resistive heater until the motors warmed up and all the fluid warmed up that's about 10-20 minutes into the ride maybe longer in colder weather if at all in really cold weather. After that though, it should cut the current 16 mile an hour range drain of the resistive heater.