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Basic engineering question.

Basic engineering question.

Not saying Tesla Inc. And Tesla Motors in general, are not awesome. Because, the organization is a breath of fresh air in a stench filled room dominated by planet crippling industrialists.

But, why do people insist on stopping their efforts with half of an inefficient circuit? As opposed to completing the circuit and adjusting it for maximum efficiency.

As the founder's chose Nikola Tesla to pay homage to, I would expect them to be more open to Tesla's engineering methods.

Just some food for thought.

DTsea | August 12, 2017

What the heck are you talking about?

bonus_puer1 | August 12, 2017

Instead of staying with a positive only circuit you add a negative circuit, then tune it for maximum efficiency.

carlk | August 12, 2017

What DTsea said.

bonus_puer1 | August 12, 2017

I take it neither of you studied circuit design.

DC circuits are designed to be positive with a ground. If a negative is added, you cut your resistence in halh and gain energy efficiency.

Tesla did help write Ohm's Law.

Stiction | August 12, 2017

Um. (facepalm)

georgehawley.fl.us | August 12, 2017

@bonus: You may need a remedial course in circuit design. Don't worry. We won't tell your teacher.

bonus_puer1 | August 12, 2017

I guess this answers my question.
Energy efficiency is not just about using less fuel, but maximizing the use of that fuel. And considering you burn up your circuits you would increase their life span. Decreasing maintenance and need to replace the physical circuit from heat damage.

For example in ICE, instead of dumping (nonburning) liquid fuel. Heat the fuel to a gaseous state, prior to injection/aspiration, and burn the gas. Boosting fuel efficiency, while reducing emissions.

bonus_puer1 | August 12, 2017

I guess this answers my question.
Energy efficiency is not just about using less fuel, but maximizing the use of that fuel. And considering you burn up your circuits you would increase their life span. Decreasing maintenance and need to replace the physical circuit from heat damage.

For example in ICE, instead of dumping (nonburning) liquid fuel. Heat the fuel to a gaseous state, prior to injection/aspiration, and burn the gas. Boosting fuel efficiency, while reducing emissions.

bonus_puer1 | August 12, 2017

Never let your schooling interfere with your education.

Frank99 | August 12, 2017

@bonus -
Uh, no. And I say that as a BSEE currently working as an architect in mixed-signal ASIC design and development, so I'd say I'm more conversant with circuit design than your average man on the street.

If you describe your idea in detail, describing (for example) where you'd get a negative supply and how you calculate a halving of resistance, I'd be more than happy to have a discussion with you.

bonus_puer1 | August 12, 2017

With a standard psu you can bridge the circuit to add the negative. With AC you can use a reverse wound coil. When referring to resistence you must consider total resistence value of a circuit, not just the individual resistors. Most of the energy lost in a circuit is through heat radiation. Reducing the thermal radiation would prolong circuit lifespan. Ultimately reducing the waste of fuel, in our case electricity.

By including pulsed DC you add another factor not fully explored.

bonus_puer1 | August 12, 2017

With a standard psu you can bridge the circuit to add the negative. With AC you can use a reverse wound coil. When referring to resistence you must consider total resistence value of a circuit, not just the individual resistors. Most of the energy lost in a circuit is through heat radiation. Reducing the thermal radiation would prolong circuit lifespan. Ultimately reducing the waste of fuel, in our case electricity.

By including pulsed DC you add another factor not fully explored.

SCCRENDO | August 12, 2017

@bonus-puer1. This is not my field of expertise but I am smart at understanding things including physics. Now you may know what you are talking about about but most of us here don't have a clue what you are talking about. Someone with a good idea should be able to explain it so the layman can understand. So why not show us the circuit Tesla is using vs the one you are using with simple numbers and explain how your theory is better.

bonus_puer1 | August 12, 2017

Sadly I am rebuilding my life after two years of homelessness, and I am lacking most my stuff. Including my laptop after hdd failure.

There is a patent(filed 1945, issued 1947), it is on the portable drive I can't use, that describes a wirelessly powered am radio. Using a coil for the information signal and two coils(one w/ standard winding other reversed) for power.

Also Ed Gray' s power supply used transmitter and receiver circuits, with and "arc tube" to mitigate heat load. The tube included a collection grid as an antenna inorder to supply the power the load. While the load was connected to the reciever pulling just enough through the load to power it.

I know he was condemned as a fraud, but so was Stan Meyers who used pulsed DC at a specific frequency to cause electrolysis. I reference "Cold Reaction" for an artistic vision of Meyers' work.

Even Tesla was condemned and black listed, not even mentioned out side of A.C., by Academics. While Gene Roddenberry wrote a book discussing the same vision Tesla spoke of.

bigd | August 12, 2017

"SCCRENDO | August 12, 2017 @bonus-puer1. This is not my field of expertise but I am smart at understanding things including physics". Now that was funny :-)

SCCRENDO | August 12, 2017

@bonus-Puer1. I would hazard a guess and say that electricity has come a long way since 1945. Elon has done an amazing job in cooling his large batteries even when charged at supercharger speeds. So it would be really impressive if you could improve on this. Elon has probably forgotten more about the topic than most of us will ever know combined. I guess I would ask you initially where Elon needs help and what aspects could be improved. And please humor us by keeping your explanation relatively simple

bonus_puer1 | August 12, 2017

@Sccrendo Electricity or circuit design hasn't come very far at all, we still use Bell-Edison engineering methods. But, battery technology has come along way, with massive leaps and bounds in resent years.

@bigd There is no need to be condescending to someone who hasn't studied an engineering field. Theory or Relativity still applies as engineering is bound by the Laws of Physics. And, thus someone who understands physics can understand the basics of system design.

To everything action there is an equal and opposite reaction. My basis is to harness the negative reaction by applying a "negative" circuit; to pull the electrons through the circuit rather then let them bleed out as thermal radiation.

Basically, why let you electronics get needlessly hot. Using a push/pull idea instead of just cramming electrons down the pipe.

SCCRENDO | August 12, 2017

@bonus-puer1. Don't mind BIgD. Small things amuse small minds. He is a troll on these boards with limited knowledge on many topics that he tries to weigh in on. I personally am happy to encourage him because he may end up buying a future Tesla. He apparently has his eyes on the Model Y.

bigd | August 12, 2017

@bonus-puer1. Don't mind SCCRENDO Small things amuse small minds. He is a troll on these boards with limited knowledge on many topics that he tries to weigh in on. I personally am happy to encourage him because he may end up buying a future Tesla.

SCCRENDO | August 12, 2017

@Bonus-puer1. 85S, vin77xx, April 2013, 122,000 miles, reservation holder on 2 model 3s and Tesla stockholder.
@BigD. Tesla troll.

bigd | August 12, 2017

SCCRENDOn I called tesla and they said they have no vins 77xx. So I guess you lied once again

bonus_puer1 | August 12, 2017

I don't mind to much, I am just so used to Facebook insults. I now find him funny, like a child mocking people for attention.

Dramsey | August 12, 2017

bonus_puer1,

"Basically, why let you electronics get needlessly hot. Using a push/pull idea instead of just cramming electrons down the pipe."

I'm sorry, but you don't know what you're talking about. I think the first thing you need to understand is that electrons are not "used up" in a circuit; any circuit has a pool of electrons-- the "electron sea"-- and that pool is moved by differences in potential. Think of wires as tubes with marbles flowing through them if it helps. You can't add marbles, and marbles don't fall out. All you can do is move marbles through the tubes.

You move electrons by creating a _potential_, either chemically (batteries), electromagnetically (generators), with photons and photosensitive materials (solar cells), etc. A _circuit_ in this example is a closed loop with positive and negative potentials.

Electrons flow from the negative side of the circuit to the positive side. (Current flow, on the other hand, is from positive to negative. But you knew that, right?)

"My basis is to harness the negative reaction by applying a "negative" circuit; to pull the electrons through the circuit rather then let them bleed out as thermal radiation."

I'm sorry, but this doesn't actually _mean_ anything. You can't "pull" electrons. They'll always flow from a negative to a positive. And, superconductors excepted, you'll always have some energy loss due to resistance. You seem to think there's something you can _add_ to an existing circuit to reduce this heat loss. There isn't.

There are several ways to reduce the resistance in a circuit. You can:

1. Increase the voltage. This works, to a point.
2. Decrease the length of the circuit. A wire one foot long has less resistance of a 2-foot wire.
3. Replace parts of the circuit. Gold wire has less resistance than copper wire.

There are probably other things you can do. But adding some sort of magic "negative circuit" isn't one of them.

If you still think you're on to something, perhaps you could draw a before-and-after diagram of a simple batter-electric motor circuit with and without your idea, and post it somewhere we could see it.

bonus_puer1 | August 12, 2017

You have a good grasp on what I am talking about, but are lost on the specifics.

Shift the voltage to the positive and the amps to the negitive. The "burning" is subjective. Compressing air causes a tank to heat up, while the release causes cooling. The same effect happens to the electron sea. If you apply pressure you get heat expansion from the resistance, by applying a vacume to release the pressure. And, mitigate the thermal effects that cause circuits to heat up, needlessly.

With micro circuits you use ceramic housing for the durability. The pipes have no room for expansion, causing thermal damage. These breakage reducing the efficiency and later failure.

Tesla studied the same effects on generators causing the "skin effect". This lead to the discovery of radio. If your voltage is too high the electrons float along the surface rather than go through the tube. If the amps are to high you burn the tube, also resulting in explosions.

The negative circuit I am suggesting is an electron vacume. No magic involved just the application of physics in a more efficient manor. Which historically was considered magic... So I guess I just contradicted myself.

NKYTA | August 12, 2017

When you post that, and the contradict yourself, what are we to think?

NKYTA | August 12, 2017

S/the/then/

SCCRENDO | August 12, 2017

@bigD. You are a moron but I guess its not your fault. My vin last five are P077xx. The two x's are real digits that I am not prepared to disclose. In fact you would need to call the California DMV not Tesla to confirm that is a real vin or just go online and it will confirm it. Now go to bed before I call your mother.

SCCRENDO | August 12, 2017

@bonus_puer1. I apologize for all the noise from the trolls. I am interested in following the discussion between you and Dave Ramsey who is a smart guy who knows what he is talking about in this particular field. Although his political opinions remain questionable.

kaffine | August 12, 2017

bonus_puer1 The skin effect has to due with frequency not voltage. Higher frequencies will only use the surface of the conductor.

From what I can tell you are basically wanting to double the voltage and think it will reduce power used and thus the waste heat generated. While doubling the voltage will half the amps needed it is still using the same power. There can be slight savings in power loss in wires if the same gauge wire is used however if the wire is sized for the amount of current then there will be no difference in power loss. The higher voltage will allow for smaller gauge wiring as wire is sized for the amps.

Take motors that can be wired for 120V or 240V. They output the same mechanical power if run on 120V or on 240V. The actual motor winding won't know what voltage they have. When run on 120V the winding will be in parallel when run on 240V they are in series. The resistance or impedance the winding has and the resulting heat generated will be the same for either voltage. If the supply wiring is sized for the current then there wont be any difference in power loss in the supply wiring either. Increasing the voltage causes other issues. The insulation of wiring and distance between contacts in connectors depends on voltage.

@Dramsey copper is actually more conductive than gold. The reason gold is used so much is it doesn't oxidize so it is great for connections.

J.T. | August 13, 2017

@SCCRENDO >>>>Dave Ramsey who is a smart guy who knows what he is talking about in this particular field. Although his political opinions remain questionable.

There is something seriously wrong with you. Was it uncomfortable for you to acknowledge that Dramsey is smart even though you suspect that he doesn't agree with you politically?

SCCRENDO | August 13, 2017

@JT. I complemented Dave and wanted to hear from him. Our political disagreement is just a joke and nothing to do with the comment but I guess I should spell it out for you next time. I had forgotten about your tendency to seek out negativity in my comments.

bonus_puer1 | August 13, 2017

The skin effect had to do with high voltage DC generators being to hot (active circuit) for the cold (inactive) circuit they where switched on to. A great many people were electrocuted as a result of fliping the interconnect. Tesla, employed by Edison, was sent to discover why. Upon which he designed a system that "warms up" the newly connected lines.

At work I see this safety system in action on the laser cutting machine. It takes 10+ minutes for the high voltage system to power up the laser.

The skin effect can be reproduced with with high frequencies, in low voltage systems. But, voltage is just apart of the equation. Wattage is Voltage times Amperage, I am not suggesting a higher wattage. Just changing the bias of flow and pressure.

The issue of gold verses copper is fully dependant of the intended use. Solid gold has to high a density for efficient use, while gold plating is perfect for exposed circuits, such as antennae. Perfect example would be Tesla Coils, and the Wardenclyffe. Also the reason the great pyramid had a gold top.

Dramsey | August 13, 2017

@bonus_puer1,

"Shift the voltage to the positive and the amps to the negaitive."

I think you may be confused about voltage and amps. A terminal is "positive" only in relation to something with a greater negative charge the same terminal can be positive or negative depending on the circuit it's in.

If a terminal has a potential of 50 volts with respect to ground, but is connected to another terminal with a potential of 100 volts, then the 50 volt terminal is "positive" in that circuit since electrons will flow to it.

If it's connected to a terminal with a potential of 25 volts, then the exact same terminal that was "positive" before is now negative, since electrons are flowing from it.

Amperage doesn't exist at a terminal but describes the flow of electricity through a circuit.

"Compressing air causes a tank to heat up, while the release causes cooling."

Yes...

"The same effect happens to the electron sea."

Sorry. no, it doesn't. You can't "compress" electrons.

It's common in elementary physics to use analogies with macroscopic phenomena to explain the behavior of electricity. You'll see voltage described as being like the velocity of a stream of water, and amperage as being like the amount of water flowing. Thus high voltage, low amperage is like a fire hose, whereas low voltage and high amperage is like a river.

But it's important to remember that this is just a crutch to help develop a mental model of how basic electrical circuits work, and is not in fact an accurate depiction of the behavior of electricity in a circuit except for very simple cases. Electrons don't behave like a gas: they can't be "compressed" and heat in a circuit is definitely not caused by said compression.

"The negative circuit I am suggesting is an electron vacume. No magic involved just the application of physics in a more efficient manner."

Can you explain what an "electron vacuum" is and how it differs from what the rest of the world calls "the positive terminal"?

@kaffine,

You're right re copper vs. gold conductivity. My bad.

@J.T.,

SCCRENDO and I are cool. Don't worry about it.

carlk | August 13, 2017

To op I'm actually pretty good in physics and I have a degree to prove it. To be honest I still don't have a freaking idea what you're talking about.

carlk | August 13, 2017

@J.T.

"There is something seriously wrong with you. Was it uncomfortable for you to acknowledge that Dramsey is smart even though you suspect that he doesn't agree with you politically?"

I can't comment if Dramsey is smart but he's way smarter than you are. I guess there goes SCCRENDO and my very small chance of getting on your approved poster list. Wait where did that list go?

carlk | August 13, 2017

@bigd | August 12, 2017
"SCCRENDOn I called tesla and they said they have no vins 77xx. So I guess you lied once again"

I don't know if JT or bigd would win the stupidest person on the forum contest. Lol. That's just too funny.

TeslaTap.com | August 13, 2017

@carlk - I have an Electronics degree, I can't figure out what the OP is talking about either. Seems like a lot of nonsense words added together. Big plus to Dramsey for trying to explain basic electrical concepts far better than I could.

J.T. | August 13, 2017

@carlk I am surprised that you have any time at all to post here considering how much time your nose spends up Elon's butt.

bonus_puer1 | August 13, 2017

By terminal you are specify batteries and capacitor banks I assume.

Batteries still have amperage. The higher the storage capacity the greater the output. Standard automotive batteries have Cold Cranking amps. While small batteries like lithium cells, common in RC vehicles and E cigarette, have a peak amperage. I have some lithium cells with a 30 amp peak, and 20 amp draw. As well as 20 amp peak and 15 amp draw, which is the average output. Lithium is limited to 3.1 volts, but the amperage is different between the cells.

What I am talking about is proven difficult to impossible with batteries or capacitors. But feasible when using a battery with a capacitor as a pass through. Note diodes are a must to control directional flow.

Ed Gray used two batteries. One for the transmitter, the other for the receiver. And a switching device to change Battery A and B from charge to discharge, and vice versa.

Wired and wireless circuits can use standard and reverse winding tansformers/antenna to achieve what I am talking about easier than with hard wired batteries.

bonus_puer1 | August 13, 2017

It is important to note Tesla was not just an electrical engineer but a quantum physicist. The Theory of Relativity suggest that you don't look at the Laws of Physics as individual and separate but as equal parts of a whole. The Laws of Thermodynamics are quoted as rendering Perpetual Motion as impossible. But, if the Laws of gravity and fluid dynamics are applied it is mechanically possible, with zero friction bearings. Just look at Astro and Atomic Physics as a functioning example.

rxlawdude | August 13, 2017

TEA score: 100%

jordanrichard | August 13, 2017

rxlawdude, what is a TEA score?

Dramsey | August 13, 2017

OK, sigh, OP is invoking free energy whacko Ed Gray, suggesting Tesla was a quantum physicist (which will surprise hagiographers everywhere), and then claiming that perpetual motion is possible if "the Laws of gravity and fluid dynamics are applied".

So, not spending any more time on this. Suggest OP develop and patent his "electron vacuum" device and become insanely wealthy while I spend my declining years bitterly rueing my offhand dismissals of his brilliant idea.

SCCRENDO | August 13, 2017

@Dramsey. Thanks for trying.
@Carlk. +1
@JT. Don't be such a sore loser. You made an error, put it behind you and move on. Would you say that I am far up Elon's butt. To me he is a hero and I continually admire what he is doing as regards things even outside Tesla. And it's not because he is South African. But when he says something stupid or does something wrong which is not often I recognize it and am prepared to call him out on it.

J.T. | August 13, 2017

@SCCRENDO What error did I make?

SCCRENDO | August 13, 2017

@JT. Your twice posted wall of heroes

J.T. | August 13, 2017

@SCCRENDO Posters I respect a helluva lot more than I respect you have reached out to me and told me they thought it was a good idea.

SCCRENDO | August 13, 2017

@JT. Well you have your supporters. Many others seem to think its a lousy idea but I haven't checked their credibilty

JayInJapan | August 13, 2017

I'm afraid OP has been attempting to yank our chains. I suggest this thread be allowed to fade away.

SCCRENDO | August 13, 2017

@Jay. Probably. But I'm always willing to give most a chance

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