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Which will come first? Bigger battery or efficient chargers?

Which will come first? Bigger battery or efficient chargers?

- This is the fourth time in 9 months I need a public charging station and they are either broken or shut down due to construction in the area.

- Many fanboys keep stating an electric car with 220 miles is enough. Obviously they dont take into consideration use cases other their own. If one travels for sports event, getaways etc a reliable and predictable charging station must be in place if we want EVs to get adopted.

- I see now a number of hybrid BMW 330e in my area charging. That is in addition to the tons of Leaf and Volt which occupy free charging stations. It is impossible to charge in downtown.

Raw materials may go in short supply in the future. I doubt batteries more powerful than 70KWh will become mainstream. How about quick chargers? It is looking bad folks.

carlk | September 12, 2017

Why would anyone with 220 mile battery needs to charge at downtown chargers?

KP in NPT | September 12, 2017

I think reliable charging will come first - because once that gets sorted the 220 battery will be plenty. And it will get sorted - we are at the beginning of the adoption curve. Sorry you have been having so many issues.

Coastal Cruiser. | September 12, 2017

"Which will come first? Bigger battery or efficient chargers?"

More efficient batteries.

JayInJapan | September 12, 2017

Who cares? Steady improvements are being made in both areas all the time.

AJPHL | September 12, 2017

Batteries since the development costs can be recouped via price increases whereas superchargers are a capital black hole.

Coastal Cruiser. | September 12, 2017

I got sucked into one of those black holes one time... When I came out the other side I landed on a planet where the Tesla Automobiles were intelligent and spoke, and they rode humanoids around to get where the needed to go.

Seanderson | September 13, 2017

I think they'll be little time difference because the big US and German and Japanese companies are ramping up their EV plans. The technology is already present to have 500-600 mile range batteries and startups have created speedy (3-5 minutes) full charging. 2019-2020 will be when we see this critical shift in batteries and charging devices (for home and commercial uses). Why? EV competition is now fierce because of how nearly 500,000 people forked up a thousand dollars on a $35K+ car unseen and untested! The big auto companies don't want to go the way of Blackberry and Nokia!

slasher0016 | September 13, 2017

@Ron_nasc Which electric car do you have? My goal is to never use public chargers, except maybe by accident if there's one where I'm parked.

PhillyGal | September 13, 2017

I've used public L2 chargers only twice due to need. (Once for fun.)
In both cases, those trips (Burlinton, VT and Charleston, SC), could be done today without needing the L2 charger due to Tesla's increased super charger coverage. Both of those L2 chargers were available and working. Both were fairly priced. BUT - I know this isn't always the case.
Except for super chargers. Tesla super chargers are very reliable. An outage is rare. So what is your point? Tesla is handling the charger issue already, so needing much more range is a moot point.

jordanrichard | September 13, 2017

3 1/2 years / 92,000 miles of Model S ownership and never once did I need to use public charging. Do keep in mind that if you gets the long range Model 3, you will have more range than my Model S did when it was new.

andy.connor.e | September 13, 2017

Keep in mind that your gasoline car doesnt get much more range as the LR Model 3.

LostInTx | September 13, 2017

Andy, in fact, I ran into a situation where the only way I could go see my beloved Texas Longhorns was to have an electric car. With Harvey, Texas is seeing a gasoline shortage and while I could fill up in Houston and drive to Austin to see the game, there was such a shortage of gasoline in Austin that I wasn't guaranteed gas to get home.

Had my Model 3 LR been available, it would have been child's play. First world problems to be sure.

95dawg | September 13, 2017

+1 Coastal_Cruiser

Iwantmy3 | September 13, 2017

Coastal_Cruiser
That wasn't a different planet, it was Earth in 30 years after Elons' master AI takes over.

Coastal Cruiser. | September 13, 2017

Perfect comeback.

Haggy | September 13, 2017

" Many fanboys keep stating an electric car with 220 miles is enough. "

That's because it is enough -- for most people. It's not enough for everybody, and for some people an EV wouldn't be a good idea at all. General statements reflect typical users who have a regular place to charge, particularly at home or at work, and don't have to wait for a charge most of the time because their cars would be parked anyway.

In the past three years, I've needed a public charger once. It was at Harrah's Lake Tahoe. Since that time, Tesla opened a supercharger station 150 meters away from that location. On all other trips, there were more than enough superchargers for me to get to and from wherever I went without going out of my way or spending any appreciable time stopped that I wouldn't have been stopped anyway.

More capacity is here. If you think 210 miles isn't enough, Tesla will give you over 300. If you think that charging takes too long, I'm not going to argue with you. For me, I'm willing to stop for a meal when I charge, and it doesn't take up extra time to charge if I'm stopped anyway. I used to make certain trips nonstop except for getting gasoline, but I now realize that it's the time to take the trip plus the time to eat that counts whether the meal is in the middle or at the end. But that's just me (and most typical users) and if that's not what you feel comfortable with, then don't buy an EV until things change.

ReD eXiLe ms us | September 13, 2017

Ron_nasc: I'm told that long haired unwashed barefoot pinko commie hippie tree huggers claim no one should live where they can't walk or bicycle for all their transportation needs and that worst case, if a bus, trolley, or taxi cannot get you to a destination in time and you must own a car as a necessary evil then no one needs it to be long range at all so the equivalent of three days driving, maybe 120-to-180 miles range max, should be 'enough' for 'anyone'. Those guys, assuming they actually exist, are not Tesla 'fanboys' at all. They are much more likely to claim their cars are obese, inefficient, and wasteful of energy.

Actually, I tend to believe people with that attitude are really just another form of extremist Astroturfer, claiming that Tesla doesn't 'go far enough' for the sake of 'being green' and they look forward to someone teaching them to do things 'the right way'. You know, instead of sleek, sexy, desirable cars, they'd prefer homely, lethargic, wierdmobiles that were 'cheap enough for the masses'. Never mind that the simple tube frame vehicles they would recommend would be death traps, or that something in the general neighborhood of one ten-thousandth of one percent of American car buyers would be interested in them.

Elon Musk and JB Straubel said in 2014 that the 'sweet spot' for range was between 250 and 350 miles. Elon also said that the market had spoken and that the minimum acceptable range was 200+ miles in Real World conditions. Well the Model 3 and Model S meet those parameters.

JayInJapan | September 13, 2017

I have to use lvl 2 & 3 public chargers all the time. SC network in Japan is still lacking.

georgehawley.fl.us | September 14, 2017

"Which will come first? Bigger battery or efficient chargers?"
Question makes no sense. Size of battery has nothing to do with efficiency of charger.

DC charging as with Superchargers is as "efficient" as charging will ever be. There will never be a more efficient alternative.

Bigger battery just means more kilowatt hours to charge. A bigger battery pack using 18650 cells or 2170 cells will accept a high charging current in total but not a higher charging current per cell and will not charge any faster.

Carl Thompson | September 14, 2017

@ReD eXiLe ms us:
" Elon also said that the market had spoken and that the minimum acceptable range was 200+ miles in Real World conditions. Well the Model 3 and Model S meet those parameters."

Actually the standard range Model 3 does not meet that unless you charge to above 90% and drive sedately without heater or AC. Not exactly what I would call real world conditions.

Nevertheless I agree with your sentiment.

Carl

Haggy | September 14, 2017

"Actually, I tend to believe people with that attitude are really just another form of extremist Astroturfer, claiming that Tesla doesn't 'go far enough' for the sake of 'being green' "

And they are right. If you compare the Model S to an ICE, it looks great. But it's a big car and there's no doubt that Tesla can make smaller more energy efficient ones such as the Model 3. Even that isn't as efficient as Tesla could possibly get if they scaled back some more.

It still misses the big picture. People are better off with a Model S than with an ICE for environmental reasons, so calling it the wrong EV misses the point. There was no competition. Also, Tesla's mission wasn't to make the most efficient EV possible. It's to change the world, and any company that builds a more efficient EV might succeed, but only because Tesla opened up the door and made EVs a viable choice without a stigma. Any company that meets the needs of extremists in the environmental community will owe its existence to Tesla.

ReD eXiLe ms us | September 14, 2017

Haggy: I see two types of environmental extremists that I disagree with. Those who want mankind to return to 'the simple life' of foraging within tiny isolated communities... And those that would have everyone occupy a 2m × 3m space stacked 150 stories high as a residence and work no more than a five minute train ride away from 'home', assuming they don't telecommute. Actually, there are probably several dozen types of environmental extremists I disagree with...

ReD eXiLe ms us | September 15, 2017

Ron_nasc wrote, "Raw materials may go in short supply in the future."

Wait... What evidence do you have to support this position? Because that sounds like absolute [BOLSHEVIK] -- and I don't mean vodka.

Lithium, Aluminum, Cobalt, Nickel, and Oxygen are the primary Elements used to formulate Tesla's automotive battery cells. Not one of them is destined to be 'in short supply' in any forseeable future at all. None of them are exclusive to locations in war torn, unstable, or unfriendly locations. No one among oil barons or traditional automobile manufacturers has artificially limited access to these 'raw materials' by cornering the market for them. No suppliers of those resources has decided to halt their sale or acquisition by manufacturers of battery cells. All of them can be acquired in multiple compounds from multiple sources and are already used in multiple industries that have been around for decades, if not centuries.

So what the [FLOCK] are you talking about here?

Think of it like the difference between tobacco and marijuana. Petroleum is available in large quantities in specific geographic areas. Just as tobacco only grows well in two or three US States. Lithium is a basic building block of life on Earth and literally is available everywhere. Just as marijuana will grow anywhere you want.

Tesla Motors' battery cells use a Lithium Nickel Cobalt Aluminum Oxide (LiNiCoAlO2) formulation. None of these are particularly rare elements. Nickel is plentiful in Canada. Cobalt and Copper are typically found in the same areas. Per Wikipedia, "Aluminium is the third most abundant element in the Earth's crust (after oxygen and silicon) and its most abundant metal." Oh, and at least for now, around 20% of the air we breathe is Oxygen.

Carl Thompson | September 15, 2017

@ReD eXiLe ms us:
"Lithium, Aluminum, Cobalt, Nickel, and Oxygen are the primary Elements used to formulate Tesla's automotive battery cells. Not one of them is destined to be 'in short supply' in any forseeable future at all."

The earth has plenty of lithium. But that doesn't mean there won't be shortages in supply.

http://www.businessinsider
.com/electric-cars-supply-shortage-2017-7

https://www.bloomberg
.com/graphics/2017-lithium-battery-future/

https://www.ft
.com/content/90d65356-4a9d-11e7-919a-1e14ce4af89b

https://www.usatoday
.com/story/money/markets/2016/08/26/could-lithium-shortage-derail-electric-car-boom/87684224/

Carl

ReD eXiLe ms us | September 15, 2017

God. I have got to fix my computer so that I can avoid seeing all these damned FUD bombs. There is no shortage of Lithium. Damn.

Frank99 | September 15, 2017

I agree, ReD. Lithium is plentiful. I've seen statements that a 2x rise in Lithium price is all that's necessary to make oceanwater extraction economically feasible. However, the mining and production facilities may be behind the demand curve - I don't know that for certain, so feel free to correct me. In any case, even if true, it's likely to only be a temporary glitch while more suppliers come on line or existing suppliers increase their production.