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Tesla's Achilles Heel? Updated 11/23/15 - I predicted CR Reliability Results in 2013.

Tesla's Achilles Heel? Updated 11/23/15 - I predicted CR Reliability Results in 2013.

Although some might prefer to see this posted privately, I would want to know the following story if I were thinking about buying a Model S.

First, we are happy Model S owners (s/n 4061, S85, pearl white, gray, pano, tech, air sound) and would not give back our car for anything. However, we are beginning to wonder if the Model S was really ready for prime time. Based on what we see in the forums, and our own experience, I suspect that TM's warranty service costs are going to be higher than expected.

TM has already spent over 1/3 of the purchase price in repairs to our car since it was delivered on Feb 3. This hasn't inconvenienced us much, and the ownership experience has been fine. Our car has been serviced only three times, and so far, experienced a total of about 10 days downtime (and counting).

Our car is currently being serviced at the Rockville Service Center. It went in last Wednesday for the 12-volt battery replacement, defroster vent upgrade, pano roof noise over 70 mph (new urethane seal?), right rear door handle inoperable, bumper misaligned (was removed previously for bolt inspection), axle nuts service bulletin, ground antennae, rear door window regulator service bulletin, add “85” insignia to rear, upgrade rear footwell cover, tire rotation, motor noise on acceleration, upgrade rear seatbelts, updated HPWC fuses for our two charging units.

Our prior service experience included one visit to Rockville when the car was a couple weeks old for a full inspection after I found loose rear bumper nuts while installing the Torklift hitch (see http://www.teslamotors.com/forum/forums/check-your-nuts-found-assembly-e...). During that three-day visit TM removed the front and back bumpers and the underbody panels to inspect all nuts and bolts. They also replaced a malfunctioning door handle and did some other minor things like upgrading the carpets and replaced our charging cord.

A couple months later TM sent a ranger to our house to apply the pano roof creaking upgrades (shims) and replace another inoperable door handle.

A couple weeks ago we had a third handle failure, and needed a tire rotation, so scheduled all of the above items, along with ensuring that we would get a Model S loaner (we are currently driving red P85). Then, one day before it was scheduled to go in, our car threw four "Service needed - car may not restart" messages during a 200-mile trip. We had no problem completing the trip and added this to the list for the next day's service visit.

Today, after six days in service, a service advisor called to say they found error codes immediately upon taking the car in, indicating "anomalies" in the main high voltage battery. They replaced the main battery and the 12-volt battery and are now getting started on the rest of the list. He said they will get back to us in the next day or two with another update.

Again, I am a happy owner. We love our car and believe that Tesla is being responsive to our service needs. We have never been stranded and the car is stunning in both appearance and performance. However, our experience is worrisome. Yes, there's some early-adopter stuff in our service record. However, except for the bumper bolts being loose on delivery, all of what we have experienced seems to be a recurring theme with these cars - many other owners are having these exact same issues.

When I add up what TM has spent so far, it is way more than the car's gross profit, and is about 1/3 of what we spent to buy the car originally - and this assumes that TM does not have to replace our motor or inverter to eliminate the increasingly loud motor hum. Bottom line: TM is already in a loss position on our car, apparently due to assembly and design-related issues. The car is only six months old (and it sat for two months while we were away) and we still have years of warranty coverage yet to go on TM's dime. Perhaps we are an extreme example, but TM can't survive if it has to spend 1/3 of the car purchase price on warranty.

I expect to be a long term Tesla owner and will definitely upgrade to a new model at some point - if their warranty costs don't eat them alive first. Great car, but was it really ready for release if it has this many issues? We aren't particularly demanding or unique customers.

Consumer Reports withheld their recommendation for the Models S because, even though it was the highest-ever car test score, it did not have enough service history. I am not looking forward to answering the Consumer Reports annual car survey, which has a lot of specific questions about repair experience. I want to see TM sales grow and the company become increasingly profitable and viable. Reliability is the last element after design excellence and superior safety, both now proven. Reliability not so much. I once told a boss that we were losing money on every sale. His response, "we'll make it up in volume" was funny, but preceded failure.

____________________________________________________
UPDATE 11/23/15

Above text is verbatim as posted in 2013, including that CR had withheld a recommendation at the time...

I had forgotten writing this post but came across it in another search. I was amazed to remember that I had predicted problems with the CR survey. This post was apparently more prescient than I knew saying, "I am not looking forward to answering the Consumer Reports annual car survey, which has a lot of specific questions about repair experience. I want to see TM sales grow and the company become increasingly profitable and viable. Reliability is the last element after design excellence and superior safety, both now proven. Reliability not so much."

I knew that my personal MS had lots of problems, but was pooh-poohed around here as an anomaly - and anecdotal example of one. In hindsight, I was correct.

Subsequent to this post, we had numerous other repairs on this car, including two Drive unit replacements, another 12-volt battery, and the bumpers were entirely replaced because Tesla could never get the originals to align. All items were repaired, fixed or replaced to our satisfaction, and we drove the car for a total of 32,000 miles. In late 2014 we sold the car to a forum member and upgraded to a new P85D. The P85D had been far more reliable, although has had to go in a few times for things like replacement half shafts, failed main screen, rattles, and several error codes. The P85D is a far better assembled car in my opinion, and I plan to be a Tesla customer for life. However, they do still need to work on quality.

jbunn | 26 August 2013

I think this is an assumption on your part, yes? You don't actually have any numbers from the service teams about what the repair would have cost to support your contention that it is 1/3rd of the purchase price?

Also, your experience may not match the average.

This does happen in high-tech. Slap it out there and fix it in the field. It's not without precedent, but neither is it scalable. And I don't expect Tesla thinks they will need to scale it.

J.T. | 26 August 2013

I'm wondering what you're basing your actual dollar amounts on when you say that Tesla spent 1/3 of the purchase price for repairs.

J.T. | 26 August 2013

@jbunn Great minds think alike and at the same time.

Sudre_ | 26 August 2013

Dave I have had almost none of your issues. Took my delivery on Feb 9th. I did have a 12 volt buss issue but it turned out it wasn't the battery but a bad micro switch.

Also the people sitting around at the service centers get paid if they sit there and twiddle their thumbs or work on cars so that cost is paid already. The parts are the only real added cost. The real parts cost versus the marked up parts cost is probably quite a bit. The 'billing' side will show the labor and full parts price.

Hopefully the newer cars have less and less issues. Heck an early February delivery was built in Jan and they were still working out the kinks at the factory.

Take the 12 volt battery as an example. They purchased the batteries from a vender that turned around and subbed it out to another vender who supplied bad batteries. That issue should be gone now. They have a completely new vender with totally different batteries.

Basically I am not real concerned. I don't see 10,000 posts about problems with cars.

mikeah007 | 26 August 2013

My guess this is an abnormal experience. Many folks have had the car with only minor issues. As you said several of your issues were related to earlier cars and no longer exist. 2014 models will have very little if any issues.

TeslaTap.com | 26 August 2013

I'd say the battery replacement is the one very expensive item, and that seems quite rare based on other posts here. Tesla likely can repair the pack and re-use it internally for test cars and perhaps the Supercharger battery backup. In this cases, the fact it is used is unimportant, so the real cost may be far less to Tesla.

Most (all?) of the other items seem to have been fixed in the newest cars, so it hopefully is not an ongoing expense other than early cars.

Glad you're happy with the MS and hope you have smooth sailing after these updates.

Dreamknightmanga | 26 August 2013

They have likely factored these kinds of costs of operations in to their business model. Plus, as everyone knows, what costs you $400 dollars to fix at a dealership really only costed them $50 to them.

Pungoteague_Dave | 26 August 2013

The battery alone is 1/3 of the price of the car, if the $30k estimate is accurate. Assuming that TM has built-in margin, and that their cost is half, or $15K, we then have to account for 13 service-days at $75/hr, there's about $8,000 of labor, plus the other parts. It easily gets to $30k, not counting supervision or the executive-level involvement in the bumper nuts problem. And they have just started on the much longer list of upgrades and service items above - I believe they still have a couple days work to go yet. No question they've spent WAY more than 1/3 of the purchase price of my car on service at retail parts and labor pricing, with more to go, and about 1/3 at TM's internal cost.

Sudre_ | 26 August 2013

Again Dave you CAN't take in the labor costs. Those guys sit around the shop and get paid to sharpen pencils if there are no cars to fix. Also you did not have a complete battery failure. You probably had one part on the pack fail and they will fix that and haul the battery out to a Supercharger so there is no loss for the major cost which is the cells. If the car was still running you most definitely did not have a pack failure.

wolfpet | 26 August 2013

They had to release their cars to the wild. I don't think there was any other way to get their cars "ready for prime time". They learn from early adopters and improve constantly. I'm not worried personally.

redacted | 26 August 2013

They just raised the prices. That may cover it.

Seriously though, your experience seems out of the ordinary. I expect that consistency will improve with time and that there's a decent margin on these cars to begin with.

Pungoteague_Dave | 26 August 2013

Even if my estimate of TM's warranty costs on my car are a bit high, there's no question that the gross sales margin is gone. My car was about $89K - margins were lower then, but assuming Elon's 25% target for the year, that would give a $22,250 gross margin on my sale. That is certainly gone.

I anticipated all of the responses above. Wishful thinking, most. Remember that these cars are new and we are just beginning to learn how long batteries last, what the failure rate is, etc. Until last week I had zero battery problems. The car always ran fine. Now it has had to have its core part, the high voltage battery, replaced. Neither anyone responding above, nor TM, has a complete picture on how well the batteries will hold up. I have seen several other total battery replacements and now at least that many total motor/inverter replacements on these forums (most in the last couple days), so I am not alone.

Remember, six months in = huge costs to TM. I am not saying that my car is representative, but it wasn't a really low number either. I have the 8-year warranty deal, so there's probably lots more costs to come for TM. We have no idea how well the cars will hold up, but we have been telling ourselves that an EV has fewer moving parts, so fewer repair issues. So far I have had many more repairs than on any MB, Porsche, or BMW that I have owned over the past 20 years. Most of those never needed any repairs beyond maintenance, yet this car is essentially being rebuilt at the manufacturer's expense, and who knows how long the "upgrades" will last? Will the new battery be better than the old? TM won't tell me what went wrong with the old battery - just referenced anomalies. Note that NONE of my problems have been related to electronics or the computers - they are ALL mechanical and design.

Sudre, I respect you, but your statement that the SC people would sit there twiddling their thumbs if I didn't have these issues is absurd. (1) TM has a long waiting list for service, at least at Rockville, and (2) any auto service business scales their labor availability to meet demand. No one sits around waiting for work to come in at a properly run service center. Labor is not free as you imply. I used $75/hr in my estimate, far below most import luxury dealers, and way below California-level labor charges. Yes the employees make less, but you have to account for overhead, etc. There's very little or no profit in a $75/hr labor charge.

Sudre_ | 26 August 2013

OK Dave. Have it your way. Tesla will fail because your car is having problems. Hope you're happy.

Pungoteague_Dave | 26 August 2013

Sudre, you are really reaching. Are you also a shareholder?

The answer to battery pack failures cannot always be "they will simply repair and haul it out to be part of a Supercharger". These things weigh hundreds of pounds and have huge transport costs. My dead one is 3,000 miles from the mother ship an dis a sealed unit that can only be serviced at the factory. And how many battery packs do they need to build out 100 supercharger locations? They can't all be reconditioned units. I would be shocked if TM can recover 1/3 of the value of a battery in a reconditioned state. They certainly cannot re-use them in other cars.

Again, your assertion that labor is free says you know little about the service business. I have owned several and can state categorically that a properly run service business has less than 10% non-billable labor slippage. Costs are costs. The people would not be there if the work were not there. They would have one mechanic, rather than 10 based on average repair load requirements. Same for the space overhead and tools associated with servicing cars.

Crow | 26 August 2013

Your car is not representative of the whole population.

cwmenne | 26 August 2013

Hmmm, I don't buy it. I've had my S60 for just over a month now and about 3,000 miles and the only real problem has been a bad seat recline switch that failed on day two, otherwise, the car has been awesome. As I see it, in the examples here from the OP, Tesla has essentially no labor cost (as previously mentioned) and the parts are pretty low as well, even the battery as they WILL repair and reuse it. Tesla needs to find and fix weakness as early as possible, so this is good training and building of the database before the customer base overwhelms the service center capacities. It is WAY cheaper for Tesla than traditional dealer arrangements and my previous cars have had more trouble and repairs than my Tesla so far. I those cases, the manufacturer had to pay the dealers retail (or near retail) rates to fix it. Way more expensive than Tesla's arrangement.

omarsultan.ca.us | 26 August 2013

Dave:

I see two flaws in your logic:

1) First you are extrapolating your experience into a general trend--I don't think you actually have the data to back that up--you are essentially basing your argument on a sample size of 1.

2) You have a fairly early s/n. They have built some 11K cars between mine and yours. I would venture that Tesla has learned something along the way as have their sub contractors. The rise in gross margins would seem to bear that out, so the second flaw is you seem to consider the defect rate as a steady state instead of declining, which is likely more a reasonable position to take.

Finally, you really don't have any idea of what the financial impact of all your repairs are. Companies that offer warranties maintain a liability account to cover the potential costs of those repairs. Odds are the costs of your repairs were paid out of that account which is already baked into Tesla's overall numbers.

Regards,

Omar

ginsbergr | 26 August 2013

Dave, we have had our car since April with no real problems. With any "start up" there will be some cars that do not measure up and I think your car unfortunately maybe one of the few with multiple problems. I am on this forum and the TMC forum almost everyday and do not read about your situation...in fact you are one of 3-4 owners that have had multiple problems. I do think that if an owner has a problem, they would hopefully go to the forums to get other peoples thoughts, or more important, address it directly with ownership. Good Luck with your car and I hope this last service call will be your last.

Kimscar | 26 August 2013

As pointed out the battery was the biggest cost item. Good news is there is history of the Roadster that shows that the batteries are pretty reliable. Some outside testing shows the life of the batteries are actually a little longer than the estimate.

The other items problems you mentioned will clear up with time. I remember when we would bring a radar into production and it seemed that the first 15 to 20 would be like pulling teeth then a point comes when things begin to move smoothly.same with MS. we are seeing some repeating problems being addressed and future cars won't have those problems... Rear window going off guide, 12V batteries, door handles etc.

It does appear your car ate all of Tesla's profit but it is an anomaly.

Pungoteague_Dave | 26 August 2013

All of the "I have had my car since xxx and have had no real problems" are also anecdotal and surveys of one. I also had very few issues for the first 7,000 miles except the bumper nuts. Now the wheels have fallen off their profits on my deal. Batteries cannot be re-used except in limited situations and for specific low-demand alternatives such as superchargers, and labor is not at all free. My cost estimates are generous in favor of TM. I am a CPA and am well aware of how warranty reserves work. Mine is definitely fully used. Yes, that's a sample of one, and as I said above, I do not believe that my car is representative OR that we should extrapolate from my experience to ALL Tesla deliveries. However, if even a fraction of my experience is broad-based, TM has an issue.

I have seen dozens of other owners on the forum with multiple issues. Anyone who thinks otherwise hasn't been watching closely. Some have been MUCH worse than mine, including full motor and inverter replacements )several in the past couple days alone). I am not nearly as harsh as some here - I am still a TM fan, and have no issues with their service - I just worry that it is getting expensive for TM. Remember that we on this forum are a small subset of the owner base, so it is valid to see issues identified here having wider implications.

Again, every single issue that I have had on my car except the bumper nuts and my most recent main battery failure has been identified and discussed at length by MANY other people here on this forum - in all cases I learned about the problem and solution by someone else posting about it being a problem on their car first. I am certainly not an exceptional case and my car is not a one-off early lemon.

kjin7117 | 26 August 2013

I'm a P13xxx owner, 5k miles. So far 2 major service issues: pano roof had to be replaced (not just fixed) due to excessive wind noise. Inverter failed and had to be replaced.

Currently my headlight goes on during broad daylight in auto mode and my indoor accent lights aren't working so ill need a 3rd visit soon. I consider that a lot of issues for having a car just 2 months so I can sympathize w Dave.

Definitely seems like there are early adopter issues. Whether or not they have resolved them on newer builds and how long term reliability will be only time will tell.

earlyretirement | 26 August 2013

I think Dave has valid concerns. But I tend to agree with some people that not everyone is having problems. But especially I would have to believe that Tesla has drastically improved things during the assembly process from when he got his.

I'd think that the company will constantly improve their manufacturing process when there are complaints and the newer models SHOULD experience far fewer problems (wishful thinking on my part).

I don't think that Dave's concerns should be dismissed. It's not like there aren't many many posts about problems out there.

To me, the important part will be that Tesla always takes care of their customers problems. I could care less where the stock price is. It sounds like they have addressed all your issues Dave which is great. A company like this will always experience growing pains.

I'd have to believe they will work out the kinks as they hear about these on-going issues. But no doubt I understand where you are coming from.

I pick up my car in a few days and hoping I don't have the problems that you have.

redacted | 26 August 2013

I'm with @sudre_, @Pungoteague_Dave you're right and Tesla will crash and burn. You are our Jeremiah.

shop | 26 August 2013

The proof is in the financial numbers. Tesla's earning reports continue to be better than expectations, so they must be making money from their cars. Main battery pack replacement is quite rare, if you follow the forums, which you do, so you know that to be true.

I picked my car up in march and it has been working fine.

PBEndo | 26 August 2013

@Pungoteague_Dave I applaud your courage for this post - you had to know some forum members would now have you in their crosshairs.

I have had several problems as well, though nothing as serious as the main battery. I received my car in March (VIN 6542), it has been in the service center 3 times and I have had 2 ranger visits. My car goes in again next week. I have already put close to 2500 miles on loaners, and 8000 on my MS.

I am happy to report that I have had no issues with the "big stuff", i.e. the battery or electric motor. As an early adopter, that was my biggest fear when I purchased the car. I still love the car and I promote it like I was getting a commission on every sale. I have no doubt Tesla will work out the kinks in the long run. Since I live in Florida, I can't buy the extended warranty so I hope I am right.

I have definitely thought about how much money Tesla has spent servicing my car, and how much service may be needed in the future. It worries me. Just the delivery/dropoff and loaner use has to add up. I have no idea how representative my car is, but I have had problems with so many different parts of the car (sunroof, paint, radio, headliner, turn signal, door handles, chargeport door, bluetooth, etc.) that there must be many, many other owners with at least some of the same problems.

PBEndo | 26 August 2013

I should add that the Dania service center has tried to make every service as painless as possible. That really goes a long way on building loyalty and reducing the frustration that can come with the need for repairs. I have never received such good service with my previous cars (though, none of my previous cars had so many problems early on)

carlk | 26 August 2013

I don't think you need to worry for Tesla. Account payable and warranty cost are all included in the financial reports as operation cost. I'm sure Tesla which is serving 10,000+ customers have a much better idea than you as to what the cost is.

cwmenne | 26 August 2013

Watch out for the dreaded motor failure... I was told at a store that it costs a whopping $1500! Of course there are going to be some issues, but if it were really widespread, we would be hearing about it much more, I suspect. I bet there are a few cases that are much worse than these, but thankfully Tesla is taking care of them quickly and efficiently. I suspect that in some early cases, Tesla will replace a battery, a motor, an inverter, etc., just so they can dissect and study the problems for future improvement. A year or two from now, either the battery will be improved, or they will know how to fix them at the service center, rather than replace them. I was quite impressed that the SC had TWO of the seat recline switches in stock. That's pretty impressive for such an obscure part and at a SC that was only about 3 weeks old. Call me naive, but I'm not worried about Tesla's quality.

cfOH | 26 August 2013

Every new car I've ever purchased has had something significant fail within 3,000 miles. Car manufacturers incorporate warranty service into their operating cost planning...that's business 101.

Now, for a few actual FACTS:

If you look in Tesla's latest 10-Q (quarterly SEC report), you'll see these numbers:

Warranty costs incurred:
Three months ended June 2013: $1,601,000
Six months ended June 2013: $4,708,000

So, the incremental increase in warranty repairs for Q2 was actually lower than in Q1, despite them putting more actual cars out in the field. So, warranty repairs PER CAR seem to be going down rather than up.

Pungoteague_Dave | 26 August 2013

pbendo,

Thanks. I have sold at least a half dozen Models S by giving test drives, and am still a big TM promoter. I get the smile every time I drive one - either mine or a loaner. But I am not a fan-boi to the point of justifying everything that goes wrong by saying "startup" or "early adopter", etc. as an excuse. Elon is selling the Model S as a no-excuses, best car in the world. I buy that in my regular driving experience - I have never driven a car that provides a better driving experience, or one that is more fun or efficient.

Perhaps I am a bit harsh in implying they weren't ready for prime time, but the regulars here who make excuses or shoot at anyone even mildly critical have certainly come out to rebut. Look at shop's response above - he tells part of the story by saying they exceeded expectations (which they did in sales volumes), and ignores the fact that TM lost money in the last quarter after putting up a profit (using non-GAAP numbers) in the first quarter - but these TM defenders all seem to think that if they put it in writing, it makes the assertion true.

Anyway, I have a pretty thick skin and stand behind the facts presented and the views stated above. I have a big smile, am a happy owner, knowing that I would not have cut Mercedes or BMW anywhere near as much slack if I had similar problems with the products that I bought from them over the years - and neither would any of the responders if they are honest with themselves. I still have ZERO issues with TM's service or response to my problems and would buy the car again. But I do think they may begin to miss their warranty cost targets if my experience is even the small tip of a very small iceberg.

Some of this is being borne out by recent TM moves - they increased prices on the vehicle and the service contracts - specifically citing experience that said they were losing money on the contracts. Appears that TM agrees with me, at least in part...

jat | 26 August 2013

The other thing to consider is they don't need to scrap the battery -- they just didn't want you blocked on it while they diagnosed the real problem, and they will do so at their leisure now. With battery swap stations, there are going to be plenty of reconditioned batteries in flow.

Pungoteague_Dave | 26 August 2013

cfOH - using your numbers and estimating per-car costs, I get $600 warranty cost average per car in the first half of 2013 ($4,708,000 divided by a conservative average of 8,000 cars in the wild over that time period = $588). That's doesn't help the case at all given how new these cars are. Most of the batteries were barely broken in ;)

Pungoteague_Dave | 26 August 2013

jat - battery swap stations are a marketing fantasy. There isn't one under construction and there will be perhaps one in the next two years as an experiment to prove there isn't sufficient demand. Elon said as much between the lines in his roll-out - it is an optical solution to a problem that does not exist after buying the car. The fact that it exists in theory overcomes a psychological hurdle that impedes some from buying. Brilliant, but not real.

cfOH | 26 August 2013

@Puncoteague_Dave I suspect most car mfrs. would love to have per-vehicle warranty repair costs of just 0.67% (~$600/~$90,000) during the first 12 months of an entirely new platform launch.

Should it be lower? Yes, most definitely.

Will it be lower? Most likely it will, and the data show that.

I'm sorry your experience has been so extreme, but generalizing from your one data point just isn't warranted. I mean, my one data point has been zero warranty service costs. If I generalize to everyone from that, then Tesla is doing perfectly! See how neither of us should use our personal anecdotes as representative samples?

timmsteiner | 26 August 2013

I agree with the OP that warranty work is going to cost Tesla a small fortune. Several visits per car can cut into profit margin quickly.

omarsultan.ca.us | 26 August 2013

Um, Dave, the reason the non-GAAP number is relevant is that this qtr, the GAAP number included one-time costs like paying off the DoE loan and because GAAP accounting treats leasing revenue differently--it is not recognized the same way a straight purchase is. Its a bit disingenuous to claim @shop's post was only half the story.

O

shop | 26 August 2013

Several visits to a service center can cut into profits quickly IF the service center is a dealer charging the company negotiated repair rates. I had an SUV once that went back to the dealer four times in 2 months to fix the AC. I'm quite sure the manufacturer got charged a pretty penny by the dealer to fix the amazing co-incidental 4 different things wrong with a single AC unit (I'm being sarcastic). My point being that company owned service centers cost Tesla a lot less in service than do dealers. Parts are cheaper too, when you make almost all parts in house as Tesla does and no other car manufacturer does.

RedShift | 26 August 2013

Dave, see what you have done now? See?!!

Nick says
"Tesla is losing on every car. Market is guessing the future of Tesla to going to be good. Nobody know for sure. You many risk factors"

highfalutintodd | 26 August 2013

Far from costing Tesla money, my Model S continues to MAKE money for Tesla... I keep having to buy every damn thing the crops up in the Tesla Store! ;-)

mrspaghetti | 26 August 2013

I understand your concern Dave, but I also pay close attention to the forums and I am not alarmed. Your experience is three standard deviations out, I'd wager. If you're familiar with statistics you'll realize there are outliers in every data set. Tesla loses money on a few cars like yours, just like Toyota, et al. Namaste.

RedShift | 26 August 2013

Kinda making hard for Tesla to understand you, Nick. With all that bad grammar.

Tyguy | 26 August 2013

Hi Dave. I'd recommend withholding judgement that Tesla is eating the costs for all your repairs. For items they manufacture and some Tesla-sourced design shortcomings, sure, they'll bear the cost to produce the part and installation related costs. The purchased parts, however, like a battery or door handle, may very be the responsibility of the original manufacturer.

Contracts come into play and I seriously doubt any Tesla insider would disclose their vendor agreements, so we'll never know the real cost to the company. If the Tesla parts buyers are worth their salt, they'll have robust warranties of their own on all purchased parts that allow them to recoup many of the warranty charges you're concerned with in your original post.

Considering how new the vehicle is, a brand new facility, brand new staff, and ground breaking design, I'm surprised more warranty problems aren't popping up. There's a tremendous amount of variables at play and Tesla seems to be doing the right thing: learning from the mis-steps and taking care of the customer.

SamO | 26 August 2013

The OP and others likely remember when he made the claim that battery swap was impossible due to the fact the SC had removed OP's bumper.

PD please stick to accounting and leave the engineering to the rest of us.

SamO | 26 August 2013

NNT,

Thanks for siding with PD. I think people know where the facts stand.

Jamon | 26 August 2013

@P_D: I think you have valid points, and I appreciate your contrarian perspective on this forum. Your car has certainly had more than it's fair share of issues, and if I were in your shoes I would be frustrated and probably more concerned about the future of the company. It's fair to say that if your experience is representative of most cars, TM would certainly be on it's way out of business. However, I think it's clear that your experience is far from normal as very few people have posted this level of warranty repairs on the forum, and those who experience this much trouble are much more likely to post on the forum. I'm glad that owners are boldly bringing so many problems to TMs attention, because I believe TM to be very adept at solving these "early adopter" problems skillfully and rather quickly. I think the cars coming off the line today will be much more reliable (i.e. much less likely to cost TM money in warranty repairs) than our early cars were. And I remain extremely impressed that Tesla service is working so hard to take good care of every single customer. I was impressed with the customer satisfaction of Roadster owners, but honestly I didn't think TM could maintain this level of service with >10,000 MS's on the road. While your post makes me wonder about warranty costs down the road, I still come away very much in awe of how much better TM is than any other auto manufacturer in the world - even as they're experiencing the growing pains of an early manufacturing ramp-up on their very first new car design.

In other words: I hear what you're saying, and still I come away more impressed with Tesla than ever :)

Rheumboy | 26 August 2013

Well all......

One of two things happened. Either Dave got a lemon or we're all going to be drinking a lot of lemonade!!

mdemetri | 26 August 2013

The only relevant data is that stated by cfOH, which clearly shows that warrenty costs are going down. The idea that one can take their personal expierence (n=1) and apply it broadely is ridiculous. I deal with large datasets in my day job and statistical analysis is absolutely required for anyone to begin to discuss this issue. As we do not have the data, we must rely on Tesla's disclosures; which cfOH clearly pointed out show that warrenty costs are dropping, not increasing. Anything else is meaningless in the absence of statitical analysis.

San Diego Tesla | 26 August 2013

I have had my car for 3 months now and not a single problem. Looks like you got yourself a lemon.

ralsagoff | 26 August 2013

Moral of the story is that when you buy a vehicle such as the MS which has cutting edge technology, you had better buy a service warranty that will last beyond the warranty that comes free. Yes, we all know that problems will show up within the first year if there are any but Tesla will definitely start raising the price of service and Ranger visits once they build up "cost experiance" on the cars alreaday sold.

Elon is a bright guy and he will fihure it out but we had better watch out as they start jacking up the price of everything related to the MS. You have seen the price hikes on options. I had to suffer a major price adjustment because i added the Parking sensors AFTER my order was confirmed. I just took delivery of my MS85 on Saturday and let's hope for the best.

sia | 26 August 2013

First of all, I feel bad you have had so many problems, but it looks like Tesla has been good to you. I think your car is a statistical anomaly, the cause of which would be very hard to pinpoint.

I have had my car (S85, 21”, tech, 11239) for 3 months, having driven 5600 miles; number of problems so far: ZERO. Reading this forum, I am seeing a lot of higher serial number cars having zero problems for thousands of miles.

For comparison, we have had a BMW 525 and an X5, and both had some problem in the first 5000 miles. So far, for us, Tesla has beaten BMW quality, and has matched Lexus (SC430, RX350) quality record.

I also agree with others that your experience alone cannot be used as a basis to assess Tesla’s quality and financial outlook.

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